C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Perhaps the answer with the composting disposal is to encourage or enable the fuel boats to offer the service - some do near London with cassette emptying, I believe.

 

 

Maybe like this ?

But adapted to take semi-solids that can then be stored on land.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

True, but I bet the cost of running a pumpout facility and disposing of the waste is much higher.

 

Why not make everything on the canals free, then nobody has to pay for anything?

 

Except via taxes of course, which are mainly paid by non-boaters becasue there are far more of them, and few millionaires live on a narrowboat. Some might then say this is an undeserved subsidy to the feckless boating poor... ?

I happily pay my licence, its a facility I use and I am not paying for people who use it and dont pay (Well not to much)

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

But is it not the pump out equipment itself that is the problem. Expensive to install and is forever going wrong - I think I read somewhere that CaRT make a loss on them when the high maintenance costs are factored in - especially the unmanned ones. The problem seems to lie in their use by boaters rather than trained staff. Disposal of the stuff that is pumped out is not difficult as there are plenty of well-organised cess pit emptying firms.

 

Perhaps the answer with the composting disposal is to encourage or enable the fuel boats to offer the service - some do near London with cassette emptying, I believe. May be offer to subsidise the installation of a composting 'bin' on fuel boats could kick start the market - or even some of the marinas. Cannot be beyond the wit of clever people - especially as the only real cost to the provider is the time for storage. Once fully composted the disposal is not difficult. Afte4 all, that is what effectively has happened with pump outs, many/most of which are private commercial services.

There are definitely ways of making disposal work, but you can bet that all of them will involve a payment, probably similar to the cost of a pump out, and also probably needed at similar intervals unless people are willing to store a *lot* of uncomposted poo on their boats.

 

None of which is a problem, except for people who installed composting loos to avoid the cost and inconvenience of pumpouts -- they've basically then just swapped a pumpout for a shovel out with similar cost and inconvenience...

[Dr Bob]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

If people have been not doing this but disposing of partly-digested (or undigested) waste via CaRT facilities because CaRT said this was OK to do so -- because it is OK for them so long as only a few people do it -- and then CaRT decide this isn't OK any more because too many people are doing it or some of them are messing up CaRT's waste and Elsan facilities, it's difficult to see what their grounds for complaint are.

Ian, I think you are totally wrong here. All your posts seem to suggest the boaters are doing something wrong with their partly digested waste. Peeps are not putting it on the tow path and they are not putting it down elsans. That would be very wrong. It does not happen.

No, they put it in waste bins (double bagged) as the CRT and government has told them to for 3 years. Damien's note yesterday seems to reverse that. There is nothing illegal putting less than 7Kg in a black bag and that is the 'service' the CRT has been providing for years.

Now, I am not a lawyer but if I pay for a set of services, then I expect the supplier to continue to supply those services or give us plenty of notice of a proposed change. I would not expect that supplier to change their offer of services if that change stopped me operating the kit the service was provided for. I think the CRT are going to struggle to prohibit peeps using black bins.....note they havent prohibited it yet! .....'you should not'. The problem is that by coming out with that statement, peeps will just dump it behind the towpath if the non black bag route becomes legally binding.

It is interesting that if you look at the farcebook dry toilet site, there is a survey going and only 70 out of 250 boater respondants are fully composting their solids.  This action in Damien's note (if really a CRT action) will therefore affect hundreds of boats.

I would expect quite a big legal challenge if the CRT change the services they provide in such a significant way.

[David Mack]

3 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

No, they put it in waste bins (double bagged) as the CRT and government has told them to for 3 years

Yes CRT have said that and their sudden change of mind causes real problems for boaters like you.

 

But you are only too aware that in discussions here many have said that you should not be disposing of dried adult poo in with domestic waste. The government advice does not say that you can do this. It is silent on that point. What it does refer to is other bio wastes, and with a specific quantity limit which would be exceeded if more than one boater empties a load of 'compost' into a single bin.

 

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

Ian, I think you are totally wrong here. All your posts seem to suggest the boaters are doing something wrong with their partly digested waste. Peeps are not putting it on the tow path and they are not putting it down elsans. That would be very wrong. It does not happen.

No, they put it in waste bins (double bagged) as the CRT and government has told them to for 3 years. Damien's note yesterday seems to reverse that. There is nothing illegal putting less than 7Kg in a black bag and that is the 'service' the CRT has been providing for years.

Now, I am not a lawyer but if I pay for a set of services, then I expect the supplier to continue to supply those services or give us plenty of notice of a proposed change. I would not expect that supplier to change their offer of services if that change stopped me operating the kit the service was provided for. I think the CRT are going to struggle to prohibit peeps using black bins.....note they havent prohibited it yet! .....'you should not'. The problem is that by coming out with that statement, peeps will just dump it behind the towpath if the non black bag route becomes legally binding.

It is interesting that if you look at the farcebook dry toilet site, there is a survey going and only 70 out of 250 boater respondants are fully composting their solids.  This action in Damien's note (if really a CRT action) will therefore affect hundreds of boats.

I would expect quite a big legal challenge if the CRT change the services they provide in such a significant way.

I've said several times that changing this at short notice without warning is not acceptable.

 

You're still confusing what is legal with what CaRT (and the contractors who remove their waste) agree to do. It may well not be illegal to dump a bag of uncomposted poo in a CaRT bin, but if Biffa (or whoever) say they won't accept this in future, what do you suggest CaRT do? AFAIK they do not have any legal obligation to dispose of said poo bags, regardless of whether they've done it in the past, and the increased volume (and maybe changes in their contract) may mean they can't continue doing it.

 

If only 70 out of 250 dry toilet users are. composting their waste properly, you've just provided the evidence to back up my point -- people aren't doing this to be green, they're doing it for their own convenience, and they expect other people (e.g. CaRT) to deal with the consequences.

 

[David Mack]

8 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Now, I am not a lawyer but if I pay for a set of services, then I expect the supplier to continue to supply those services or give us plenty of notice of a proposed change. I

 

But you are not paying for those services. CRT have a right to charge for those services, but have chosen to make them available for free. They have now decided to withdraw that particular service. Other boaters do of course pay for their toilet waste disposal, by using chargeable pumpout services. Now that there is no free disposal option, commercial providers have an incentive to provide a chargeable replacement service.

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

But you are not paying for those services. CRT have a right to charge for those services, but have chosen to make them available for free. They have now decided to withdraw that particular service. Other boaters do of course pay for their toilet waste disposal, by using chargeable pumpout services. Now that there is no free disposal option, commercial providers have an incentive to provide a chargeable replacement service.

So here's a question for the compost loo users -- if the waste was disposable of at the same sites (boatyards, marinas) who do pumpouts and at the same cost, would you still be so keen on having one?

 

Or would you conclude that if it cost the same and needed emptying as often you'd rather have a pumpout tank and not have all the bother of separating and storing/disposing of separate liquid and solid waste?

Edited February 13, 2021 by IanD

[Alway Swilby]

2 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Have a look at a cassette toilet system, they are ideal. Loads of places around the entire country to dispose of the waste, many of which are free. Very very quick and easy to do and a new system is hundreds of pounds less than most composting bogs. Google Thetford they do a range 

But you are assuming that CRT will not close all the Elsan points, permanently without any notice whatsoever, at 7:15 on a Friday evening.

[matty40s]

1 minute ago, Alway Swilby said:

But you are assuming that CRT will not close all the Elsan points, permanently without any notice whatsoever, at 7:15 on a Friday evening.

Hes not bothered, being the proud owner of a pump out.?

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

But you are assuming that CRT will not close all the Elsan points, permanently without any notice whatsoever, at 7:15 on a Friday evening.

They won't close all the Elsan points at short notice, because they've always been intended for this purpose (cassette emptying), were designed for it, and can legally be used for it.

 

Rubbish disposal points were never intended for people to use them for large quantities of uncomposted human poo.

 

IIRC more than one composted toilet disposal into a bin takes it out of the "general waste" category into a different one, where special disposal is needed.

 

The closing on a Friday evening (little or no notice) is a Bad Thing.

 

Stopping people filling the CaRT waste bins with their poo because it's convenient for them is not.

Edited February 13, 2021 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

They won't close all the Elsan points at short notice, because they've always been intended for this purpose, were designed for it, and can legally be used for it.

 

 

They close them when it suits then, think Fazeley but not all, or all at once

[Dr Bob]

17 minutes ago, IanD said:

You're still confusing what is legal with what CaRT (and the contractors who remove their waste) agree to do. It may well not be illegal to dump a bag of uncomposted poo in a CaRT bin, but if Biffa (or whoever) say they won't accept this in future, what do you suggest CaRT do? AFAIK they do not have any legal obligation to dispose of said poo bags, regardless of whether they've done it in the past, and the increased volume (and maybe changes in their contract) may mean they can't continue doing it.

That is the CRT's problem. They have a contract with their licensees that they 'may' be trying to change. If this has been brought about by Biffa then that is a problem between CRT and Biifa. Nothing has changed legally with the waste in black bins so if Biffa what to change their contract then CRT should go somewhere else if they cannot continue to provide their service to their licensees. A contract lawyer is needed to advise here.

[IanD]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

They close them when it suits then, think Fazeley but not all, or all at once

So what do *you* think CaRT should have done?

 

[agreeing that a change at such short notice was wrong]

 

If they carry on with the situation as it is and the number of composting toilets on boats -- only a quarter of who compost it properly! -- carries on increasing, they find that they can't dispose of their waste any more because the contractors refuce to accept bins full of poo.

[mrsmelly]

11 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Hes not bothered, being the proud owner of a pump out.?

Sad but true you old goat 

However I use my porta bog not mi macerater 

[Dr Bob]

24 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

But you are only too aware that in discussions here many have said that you should not be disposing of dried adult poo in with domestic waste.

 

Unfortunately 'many' on here do  not know what they are talking about. A good example of this is 'many' peeps have said it is illegal. It is not wise to listen to 'many' on here.

What is absolutely a fact is that the CRT have been offering a service to dispose of compost loo solids for the last 3 years. Is that changing and what legal right have the CRT to do that?

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

That is the CRT's problem. They have a contract with their licensees that they 'may' be trying to change. If this has been brought about by Biffa then that is a problem between CRT and Biifa. Nothing has changed legally with the waste in black bins so if Biffa what to change their contract then CRT should go somewhere else if they cannot continue to provide their service to their licensees. A contract lawyer is needed to advise here.

But AFAIK CaRT do not have any legal obligation to dispose of your waste -- they do it as part of keeping the canals running, but they don't *have* to.

 

It's not an issue with Biffa specifically, it's the legal classifcation of what counts as "general waste" and what doesn't. Too much human poo (or any other poo) in a bin takes it out of the general waste category and means that special (expensive!) sorting and processing is needed. With the typical size of a composting toilet, I believe that this happens if more than one boat empties into the same bin (can anyone confirm this?). So as more boats use these toilets this presents CaRT (and their contractors) with a big problem, because they have to treat waste legally.

 

So what do you suggest CaRT should do?

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Nothing has changed legally with the waste in black bins so if Biffa what to change their contract then CRT should go somewhere else if they cannot continue to provide their service to their licensees.

 

 

 

We are making the assumption that C&RT are not doing this voluntarily, just as the result of pressure from the bin supplier.

 

 

I would not be in the slightest surprised if the bin supplier had the requirement in their contract from 'day 1' C&RT have never read the small print and a Biffa (or whoever) employee has reported bags of 'poop' appearing more regularly.

[Dr Bob]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

So w

 

If they carry on with the situation as it is and the number of composting toilets on boats -- only a quarter of who compost it properly! -- carries on increasing, they find that they can't dispose of their waste any more because the contractors refuce to accept bins full of poo.

There needs to be some joined up thinking by the CRT. At least they dont have to process many nappies which is in their favour. They need to go away and think of the correct way to deal with it. Just saying no is not the answer as some clever dick will sue them for their loss - which could prove expensive.

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

We are making the assumption that C&RT are not doing this voluntarily, just as the result of pressure from the bin supplier.

 

 

I would not be in the slightest surprised if the bin supplier had the requirement in their contract from 'day 1' C&RT have never read the small print and a Biffa (or whoever) employee has reported bags of 'poop' appearing more regularly.

I would agree with you here Alan. I always read contracts. Maybe the CRT dont.

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

We are making the assumption that C&RT are not doing this voluntarily, just as the result of pressure from the bin supplier.

 

 

I would not be in the slightest surprised if the bin supplier had the requirement in their contract from 'day 1' C&RT have never read the small print and a Biffa (or whoever) employee has reported bags of 'poop' appearing more regularly.

I suspect it's not that CaRT haven't read the small print of that Biffa are different to any other waste disposal firm, it's simply that this was never a problem until more boats jumped on the compost loo bandwagon.

 

If (for example) two boats empty their compost loo into the same bin and this legally takes it out of the "general waste" category (which seems to be the case), there's little CaRT can do apart from stopping people dumping it. Biffa can't risk being prosecuted for misclassifying waste and will have told CaRT to stop this happenng or they won't take their waste away any more. CaRT can't then carry on allowing it to continue because no other waste disposal company will take on the problem.

[Dr Bob]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

But AFAIK CaRT do not have any legal obligation to dispose of your waste -- they do it as part of keeping the canals running, but they don't *have* to.

Is that correct?

I think they have to. I would be amazed if that were not the case. For years they have been saying to put the waste in their bins. That surely is a service in legal terms?  Hence the need for contract lawyer.

No point arguing it further till we find one.

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

There needs to be some joined up thinking by the CRT. At least they dont have to process many nappies which is in their favour. They need to go away and think of the correct way to deal with it. Just saying no is not the answer as some clever dick will sue them for their loss - which could prove expensive.

I would agree with you here Alan. I always read contracts. Maybe the CRT dont.

Nappies don't lead to tens of kg of dried poo in a single bin, that's why there's a threshold for waste classification.

 

Nobody can sue them for loss of a service which they don't have any legal requirement to provide.

 

And if they do, the obvious recourse for CaRT to avoid the hassle is either to withdraw all waste disposal services.

 

Be careful what you wish for ?

[ditchcrawler]

On the Broads a few years ago the local council decided that waste from boaters was no longer domestic but trade and imposed a charge for removing it. The bins went overnight unless local parish councils picked up the tab. 

[Dr Bob]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

f (for example) two boats empty their compost loo into the same bin and this legally takes it out of the "general waste" category (which seems to be the case), there's little CaRT can do apart from stopping people dumping it. Biffa can't risk being prosecuted for misclassifying waste and will have told CaRT to stop this happenng or they won't take their waste away any more. CaRT can't then carry on allowing it to continue because no other waste disposal company will take on the problem.

I take your point here Ian and agree, but the wording on the gov web sites is not clear. You can dispose of a black bag in a bin if less than 7Kg etc etc, but is this aimed at domestic bins rather than 'dumpsters'. We dont know. Go to a block of flats and how many nappies go into a dumpster each day? That is a big problem and then we get Biffa moaning at boaters who cause less problem (9 million smelly dirty nappies are worse than the solids from our boats even if 2/3rds dont compost).

 

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Is that correct?

I think they have to. I would be amazed if that were not the case. For years they have been saying to put the waste in their bins. That surely is a service in legal terms?  Hence the need for contract lawyer.

No point arguing it further till we find one.

They provide a service. The question is whether they legally have to.

 

I would be surprised if they are legally required to provide canal rubbish bins in the same way that local authorities don't have to provide them on the street (but often do), but I'm sure somebody can confirm this or not.

 

What is certain is that any contract like this (if there is one) will only cover rubbish classed as "general waste".

 

In other words nothing that needs special treatment -- asbestos, chemicals, oils, metals, excrement...