Project: third age; living aboard

[dmr]

7 minutes ago, barry pierce said:

Thks Alan - that's a new one on me. 

Scupper valves are not really a narrowboat thing.

You look to have a few inches to spare so should be just about ok, but I can't see the gas bottle locker drains (assuming they are at the front), they will more likely be the issue.

The boat looks to almost have two distinct waterlines??

 

..................Dave

[barry pierce]

5 minutes ago, dmr said:

2 foot 5 makes you a deeper boat but nothing to worry about. A lot of boats are about this deep including just about anything with a vintage engine. You will likely have no trouble on the Llangollen, CRT figures are always conservative. A deeper boat does have some handling advantages. Maybe get to know the boat first then take the ballast out bit by bit. I took a bit out of ours (2 foot 8 when the water tank is empty) and felt the handling went downhill a little.

What engine, prop, and gearbox ratio do you have?

A deep boat with a typical modern engine and smallish prop is not ideal but if you have a big prop you might be fine.

and what size is the water tank? If its unusually big then the back could easily go up and down by 2 or even 3 inches as the tank level changes.

 

...............Dave

Mmm... interesting comments, Dave. I do intend to remove any ballast incrementally, check the change in displacement at both bow & stern, and take a short cruise to examine the effect on handling. Out of my depth (sic) on the questions: it has a beta 35 and the boatyard are suggesting I change the existing prop for a Michigan, but that's because they feel the thrust is poor - can find out the spec. Don't have any spec re the water tank but I would guess it's not 'large' because the well-deck is relatively low (thus the issue with the scupper) and covers the bow thruster as well as the water tank. The measurement I tool was with a full water tank.    

[barry pierce]

4 hours ago, Loddon said:

A tender behind.

 

 

 

 

If the water line isn't parallel with the rubbing strake its bow up

 

? water line is far from parallel with the rubbing strake - it's closer to being parallel with the base plate

9 minutes ago, dmr said:

Scupper valves are not really a narrowboat thing.

You look to have a few inches to spare so should be just about ok, but I can't see the gas bottle locker drains (assuming they are at the front), they will more likely be the issue.

The boat looks to almost have two distinct waterlines??

 

..................Dave

Aah.. I will check that out - thanks. Could be full/empty water tank - only 1600 engine hours so has sat around a lot.

[Alan de Enfield]

46 minutes ago, dmr said:

Scupper valves are not really a narrowboat thing.

Agreed, they are not, but with only 4" as it stands, and the plan is to lower the bow (by a couple of inches ?) It would leave it dangerously 'low'.

Fine for the canals, but transit between canals on a stretch of River and another boat passes with a 3" bow wave and your front deck will become flooded.

 

When there are things that can be done to minimise the risk we should not be too proud to use what is used,in other boating sectors, to solve it.

 

Something as simple as this could help.

 

https://www.waveinn.com/nautical-fishing/attwood-scupper-valve/136433539/p?

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

2 foot 5 makes you a deeper boat but nothing to worry about. A lot of boats are about this deep including just about anything with a vintage engine. You will likely have no trouble on the Llangollen, CRT figures are always conservative.  

 

...............Dave

These on the Llangollen are probably all more than 2' 4" https://www.nationalhistoricships.org.uk/photography-competition/featured-entries

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Agreed, they are not, but with only 4" as it stands, and the plan is to lower the bow (by a couple of inches ?) It would leave it dangerously 'low'.

Fine for the canals, but transit between canals on a stretch of River and another boat passes with a 3" bow wave and your front deck will become flooded.

 

 

Probably also while going up in locks

Edited November 10, 2020 by ditchcrawler

[sailor0500]

 

I have heavy Porcelain floor tiles in the galley area and they are very cold in the winter, so much so that I always lay carpet over them until warmer weather arrives then they are great. Good luck with your project. Mike.

PS. Don't change the prop until you have finished everything and tried the boat for a few months. Then you will be in a position to decide for yourself.

Edited November 10, 2020 by sailor0500

[LadyG]

6 hours ago, barry pierce said:

Hi LadyG. It would be laid on the original marine plywood which is current covered in B&Q lino & laminate. Take your point on flexing and hope I can compensate with a pliable bedding/grout. Will check out Armtico though - thks. 

It's pointless, good modern materials look like slate, and when your slate cracks you need to replace it, so need spares. 

I had this problem at home, there is extra elastic screed grout, not the standard one, and the thicker the better.

[dmr]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Agreed, they are not, but with only 4" as it stands, and the plan is to lower the bow (by a couple of inches ?) It would leave it dangerously 'low'.

Fine for the canals, but transit between canals on a stretch of River and another boat passes with a 3" bow wave and your front deck will become flooded.

 

When there are things that can be done to minimise the risk we should not be too proud to use what is used,in other boating sectors, to solve it.

 

Something as simple as this could help.

 

https://www.waveinn.com/nautical-fishing/attwood-scupper-valve/136433539/p?

This is a complicated subject, mostly ignored, and relevant to me as with a full water tank our scuppers are low. The op has relatively small square scuppers, these wont let a flood in during a wave, but will take longer to drain if a big wave overtops the gunnels.

With a full watertank we get water in when we do a turbulent lock, sometimes quite a lot, but its never been threatening. The front door threshold should give another couple of inches of protection, more if its a modern RCD compliant boat.

 

Would a scupper valve work on a canal boat? I suspect it would need a lot of maintenance to remove a build up of autumn leaves and general crud, and if not maintained could be counter productive. Would it open easily enough to let rainwater out or would it give a wetter well deck?

Some narrowboats have big scuppers but I suspect the small ones like the ops, as fitted by experienced builder like Colecraft, are probably a good compromise.

If you plan the sort of boating where you might take a wave over the front then additional protection would be required.

 

I reckon 2" freeboard with a full water tank would not be a problem.  Many, mostly older,  narrowboats have a deep well deck with no means of draining other than a pump.

 

....................Dave

 

 

1 hour ago, barry pierce said:

Mmm... interesting comments, Dave. I do intend to remove any ballast incrementally, check the change in displacement at both bow & stern, and take a short cruise to examine the effect on handling. Out of my depth (sic) on the questions: it has a beta 35 and the boatyard are suggesting I change the existing prop for a Michigan, but that's because they feel the thrust is poor - can find out the spec. Don't have any spec re the water tank but I would guess it's not 'large' because the well-deck is relatively low (thus the issue with the scupper) and covers the bow thruster as well as the water tank. The measurement I tool was with a full water tank.    

A deep boat with a poor prop is not good, you will get stuck on the various bits of crap (and silt) on the bottom and need a lot of "push" to get yourself off. In general deep boats and big engines/big props sort of go together.

 

................Dave

Edited November 10, 2020 by dmr
too many signatures

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, dmr said:

Many, mostly older,  narrowboats have a deep well deck with no means of draining other than a pump.

My 1998 Reeves NB had the 'lowered' well deck and didn't have any scuppers and any water was piped back to the rear bilge.

We never did get any water in past the Cratch Cover.

[ditchcrawler]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

My 1998 Reeves NB had the 'lowered' well deck and didn't have any scuppers and any water was piped back to the rear bilge.

We never did get any water in past the Cratch Cover.

Dont forget the boat without a cratch cover who nearly sank going up Bingley, ??

[dmr]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

My 1998 Reeves NB had the 'lowered' well deck and didn't have any scuppers and any water was piped back to the rear bilge.

We never did get any water in past the Cratch Cover.

I would say a cratch is essential on this design of boat, but if you did take a wave it would be a big problem. Glazed cratchboards are common and I am not sure how they would handle a serious wave.  I am surprised Reeves used the piping to the back scheme, I thought it was limited to much older boats, though 1998 is now quite old.

 

..............Dave

[Alan de Enfield]

34 minutes ago, dmr said:

 I am surprised Reeves used the piping to the back scheme, I thought it was limited to much older boats, though 1998 is now quite old.

 

..............Dave

It wasn't 'that old' when we bought it about 8 years ago.

 

Unlike the 'old ones' that ended up with corroded pipes that just allowed the front-deck water to run free in the cabin bildge, the Reeves was properly constructed with drainage pipe each side.

[dmr]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It wasn't 'that old' when we bought it about 8 years ago.

 

Unlike the 'old ones' that ended up with corroded pipes that just allowed the front-deck water to run free in the cabin bildge, the Reeves was properly constructed with drainage pipe each side.

Age sort of creeps up on boats, just like people, Our boat is 2001 which I still think off as new, but the insurance company said it would need a survey before we could renew the policy next year.

 

...........Dave

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, dmr said:

Age sort of creeps up on boats, just like people, Our boat is 2001 which I still think off as new, but the insurance company said it would need a survey before we could renew the policy next year.

 

...........Dave

 

It may be economically worth while to change insurance brokers.

A lift out, survey and lift back will be the thick part of £1000.

 

If your premiums increase by £200 its still a saving worth having.

 

Craftinsure survey requirement is at 30 years - that'd save you having two surveys.

 

 

[dmr]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It may be economically worth while to change insurance brokers.

A lift out, survey and lift back will be the thick part of £1000.

 

If your premiums increase by £200 its still a saving worth having.

 

Craftinsure survey requirement is at 30 years - that'd save you having two surveys.

 

 

 

I find myself in the same position with the boat that I have been in with cars, vans and houses, in the event of a total loss the cost to find a replacement boat is much greater than its potential "book" value. I think this is because I choose unusual routes through life. I therefore prefer to have "agreed value" insurance. We are also roving traders and many companies will not allow this. I don't think Craftinsure would touch us. I would be happy to pay for a survey if it fitted in with our 3 yearly docking, but that will not happen this year.

 

..............Dave

[David Mack]

 

11 hours ago, barry pierce said:

     

 

I'm surprised to see that the hull framing locations are clearly visible in the green slime on the hull. What causes that?

Edited November 11, 2020 by David Mack

[TheBiscuits]

28 minutes ago, dmr said:

We are also roving traders and many companies will not allow this. I don't think Craftinsure would touch us.

 

Ring them.

 

When I asked them for a waiver on the "no commercial use" clause in the standard policy, they sent this to me:

 

COMMERCIAL USE EXTENSION RELATING TO HATCH SALES
Policy XXXXXX
We confirm that the above policy includes Third Party liability insurance with a limit of £5,000,000 any one event, and that the insured vessel may be used for light informal trading subject to the following terms and conditions:
Including liability in respect of trading either directly from the vessel or from a trade table (or the like) on the shore adjacent to the vessel.
Excluding liability relating to any powered equipment other than that directly associated with the vessel
Excluding cover for, or liability of any stock or merchandise.
Excluding liability caused by sale of deleterious food and drink (food poisioning).
Excluding products liability.
Craftinsure.com 01/05/2020

[dmr]

I suspect it depends on who you speak to on the phone.

We have used Towergate but then moved to Euromarine to get the agreed valued bit.

We then moved back to Towergate as Euromarine upped the price rather a lot.

Towergate were good for a year but then said they don't do agreed value, when I pointed out that they did they said they would but only for one more year without a survey.

Towergate have given a trading endorsement at no extra cost in the past.

I spoke to Craftinsure last year but either trading or agreed value was a problem, can't remember which.

These named companies are all only brokers and a lot depends on what the actual insurers say.

We have had a few refusals on the basis "we don't do commercial insurance" but I suspect if we could just speak to somebody who realised a roving trader was not really "commercial" then all would be well.

 

Insurance brokers are banging your head against a brick wall.

"Will you insure my car, its left hand drive?"

They say, "we have to ask you some questions first", half hour on the phone giving car and personal details, very last question "is it left hand drive?" I reply "yes" and they say "we don't do left hand drive".

 

..................Dave

 

[Alan de Enfield]

8 hours ago, dmr said:

I find myself in the same position with the boat that I have been in with cars, vans and houses, in the event of a total loss the cost to find a replacement boat is much greater than its potential "book" value. I think this is because I choose unusual routes through life. I therefore prefer to have "agreed value" insurance. We are also roving traders and many companies will not allow this. I don't think Craftinsure would touch us. I would be happy to pay for a survey if it fitted in with our 3 yearly docking, but that will not happen this year.

 

..............Dave

 

I have always had 'agreed value' insurance but my renewal has just come thru and the insurers have written to inform me that Lloyds have now removed that option and ALL policies will be based on 'Market value' when they come up for renewal.

 

"For the first time in over 200 years in the history of Lloyds, special measure have been imposed demanding that all Syndicates writing Yacht insurance submit a sustainable business plan, in the absence of which they would be precluded from writing this class of business. This is beacuse the market has spiralled down to a fudamentally unsustainable level of rates resulting in consistent attritional underwriting losses compounded by catastrophic (storm) claims. ........................................

............................. we continue to write yacht business but we are now instructed to increase rates. All insurers are following suit except those who are now precluded from writing yacht insurance ...............................

 

It goes on.

 

The cover on your policy remains unchanged except for the change that the 'Agreed Value' option is no longer available and the following is substituted :

 

If your craft is a total loss the MOST your insurers will now pay is the MARKET VALUE of this item up to the SUM INSURED in YOUR SCHEDULE  (their bold)

 

It nay be worth checking that your insurers are still able to offer 'Agreed Value' cover.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Hudds Lad]

10 hours ago, dmr said:

I would say a cratch is essential on this design of boat, but if you did take a wave it would be a big problem. Glazed cratchboards are common and I am not sure how they would handle a serious wave.  I am surprised Reeves used the piping to the back scheme, I thought it was limited to much older boats, though 1998 is now quite old.

 

..............Dave

 our 1999 Reeves shell was setup that way, but has been modified so rather than pass through the boat it collects at the front and is removed by a bilge pump. it would benefit from a cratch, but the beauty of shareboats meaning we cant decide on one  

[dmr]

54 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

 our 1999 Reeves shell was setup that way, but has been modified so rather than pass through the boat it collects at the front and is removed by a bilge pump. it would benefit from a cratch, but the beauty of shareboats meaning we cant decide on one  

There's only two of us and we can't make big decisions like that.

 

 

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, Hudds Lad said:

 our 1999 Reeves shell was setup that way, but has been modified so rather than pass through the boat it collects at the front and is removed by a bilge pump. it would benefit from a cratch, but the beauty of shareboats meaning we cant decide on one  

Having had a catch on one boat it's a big no no for any boat of mine now. Catch and pram hoods are never allowed. 

[barry pierce]

9 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

 

I'm surprised to see that the hull framing locations are clearly visible in the green slime on the hull. What causes that?

I don't know, David - cabin bilge is dry; ballast is unbroken paving slabs; shell was fabricated by Paul Widdowson

[dmr]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I have always had 'agreed value' insurance but my renewal has just come thru and the insurers have written to inform me that Lloyds have now removed that option and ALL policies will be based on 'Market value' when they come up for renewal.

 

"For the first time in over 200 years in the history of Lloyds, special measure have been imposed demanding that all Syndicates writing Yacht insurance submit a sustainable business plan, in the absence of which they would be precluded from writing this class of business. This is beacuse the market has spiralled down to a fudamentally unsustainable level of rates resulting in consistent attritional underwriting losses compounded by catastrophic (storm) claims. ........................................

............................. we continue to write yacht business but we are now instructed to increase rates. All insurers are following suit except those who are now precluded from writing yacht insurance ...............................

 

It goes on.

 

The cover on your policy remains unchanged except for the change that the 'Agreed Value' option is no longer available and the following is substituted :

 

If your craft is a total loss the MOST your insurers will now pay is the MARKET VALUE of this item up to the SUM INSURED in YOUR SCHEDULE  (their bold)

 

It nay be worth checking that your insurers are still able to offer 'Agreed Value' cover.

Thats bad news, but at least it will save me a couple of hundred quid each year. Euromarine have been the company most willing to do agreed value but they are a bit costly and not so good at the contents side of things. I will phone them.

 

Some friends had a total loss due to fire and got paid less than they expected. Maybe its time to get a valuation.

How do the insurers deduce the market value of a total loss boat, particularly after a fire?

We are a 20 year old Colecraft but in a trad style. I have seen one typical Colecraft, a little newer than this, which is probably worth no more than £25,000. On the other hand nice 20 year old trad style boats with engine rooms and back cabin etc etc often get advertised for up to £80,000.

 

................Dave

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, dmr said:

How do the insurers deduce the market value of a total loss boat, particularly after a fire?

That is the problem with 'limited production' of inland boats and of course 'advertised prices' can be nowhere near 'agred sale price' (you only need to look at our Cat where we made an offer £80,000 below asking price and it was accepted)

 

Its fairly easy to find 'equivalents' for mass produced boats just look at Apollo Duck etc.

 

For an 'elderly' NB they could easily pick a 'same year / same length' boat from (say) any 'bottom end of the market' builder without taking any account of the fit out levels or hull build quality - you can bet your bottom dollar thay would not compare to a 'top name' builder.