Stove sanity

[Alan de Enfield]

This is why Fat boats are much more comfortable the Anorexic ones.

 

 

 

 

 

[Oakums Narrowboats]

Robin. I believe I may be able to answer all your questions, as the manufacture. 

 

The RCD Guidance notes you are looking for fall under B.4. ER 5.6.1 Fire Protection. The type of equipment installed and the layout of the watercraft shall take account of the risk and spread of fire. Special attention shall be paid to the surroundings of open flame devices. In this case; the boat has been constructed with a fire surround to improve, and enhance the stove in question. The harmonised standard is BS EN ISO 9094 Fire Protection. This ER is generally self-explanatory. Under the harmonised standard, a means to alert craft occupants of the outbreak of fire is required, such as a smoke detector or heat detector. In the case of this boat; there have been two placements of fire detection within the living/kitchen area that is interlinked to a fire detector in the front bedroom. Also; all the windows are removable to allow for quick access out the boat. There is no restricted openings or fixed glass units. The skylights would also allow for smoke to escape in the event of a fire, or be access points out the boat to further improve chances of escape. 

 

Solid fuel stoves should be installed to the manufacturer's instructions if these are for boats. If no such instructions exist, then they should be installed to the BS 8511 standard. In the case of this boat, it is fitted with a Morso Squirrel. Narrowboat Stove Safety under the guidance notes a minimum gap of 45mm (~2 inches) between your wall and the narrowboat stove. Also, the wall area nearest to the stove should have a minimum of 25mm (~1 inch) fire retardant board, with a 10mm (~½ inch) air gap between the wall and the board. In the case of this boat; we have exceeded the requirement with 100mm to all sides of the stove from the wall. The wall buildup is further improved from the guidance; as it is tiled; onto 12mm fire cement board, fixed to a 25mm calcium fire retardant board, with a 60mm air void behind.

 

In answer to your question over placement into a cupboard; the images may be misleading your judgement, and I would be more than willing to show you the boat in person. Our reason for the stove recessed between two side walls is… Think safety first!!! Typically a stove would be positioned to the side of an entry door, or access door to a bathroom (or similar). In our opinion, the position of the stove near access ways is a poor practice for several reasons. When a stove is positioned in a corner near an access door; its prone to having increased risk of burn injuries as you are more likely to come into contact with the stove. Our position is central to the living area; away from direct access of any individual. Also, consider pets and children. Are they likely to come into contact with the burning stove if placed incorrectly?

 

The other consideration for your stove’s position is heat distribution. Often, some bright spark would place a stove in the saloon’s corner, away from the corridor leading to the bedrooms. This makes the heat distribution difficult. Another aspect to consider is that no heat will come from the flue (its twin wall). The placement of this stove is central to the boat. This will allow a better flow of heat around the boat. The placement of the chairs either side is protected from the direct heat of the stove and reduce the risk of fire damage. The chairs; often directly in front of the stove can be an uncomfortable heat (Have you ever sat in front of a fire for the duration of a movie? This isn't a home where you are a few meters away.. On a narrowboat, you're often within 500mm?). For the sake of pictures; the chairs had been pushed back, but the reality is that the chair is loose; it is freestanding, and your most likely going to position it to enjoy both the flames and your better half. I will note that the fireplace only protrudes 170mm forward of the cabin walls; its less than a beer can laid flat…

 

In terms of the TV. We have supplied wireless (Doesn’t require constant power supply) TV. This has been placed on the corner unit for marketing, but can be placed on the TV unit opposite the fire; or placed on the wall opposite the fire? It is the preference of the new owners…. If the owner prefers, they can take the TV onto the exterior deck; and watch the sports as they cruise. That will likely be the more restricted view from the living room if placed on the exterior decks, but the advantage of the TV Supplied is that it can go anywhere? Have it in the bathroom; while you soak in the tub if you like….

 

Finally; your question over the flue at the head. This is placed 2 inches from the timber. There is a twin wall, and a 25mm calcium fire board separating.

 

There are many design aspects that you cannot mention in a picture; or video. An example is the dividing walls between the rooms. We don’t use 18mm MDF that is standard on other builders. The doors are not 18mm MDF. Instead; we have solid walls (with voids between, filled with fire insulation). The doors are then solid timber; fire treated. This is designed to give the occupants a better resistance from the potential fire (or smoke). I would be more than happy to give you a tour of the boat if you are interested. I will also be happy to answer any additional questions. 

 

Best Regards.

[Alan de Enfield]

It look like this may be the same builder who made "Eastern European Lady's" boat

 

An example of their work (from their website)

 

 

[Ally]

Are these now builders? I haven't come across them before. I get the feeling this is their first build?

For me, not a liveaboard I would want, though nice to see a composting loo. But the skylights, dishwasher, deep pile carpet...they don't work for me, and the galley floor is hideous (imo), but, horses for courses.

 

Edited to add...thanks for the links.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Ally

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Ally said:

Are these now builders? I haven't come across them before. I get the feeling this is their first build?

For me, not a liveaboard I would want, though nice to see a composting loo. But the skylights, dishwasher, deep pile carpet...they don't work for me, and the galley floor is hideous (imo), but, horses for courses.

 

Edited to add...thanks for the links.

They claim to have built 69 boats and have a video of 'boat number 69 leaving' to go to Lymm

Their website shows a number of differnt boats they have built and 'the three of us have 25 years experience'

 

£18,500 for a 57 foot shell.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Ally]

20 minutes ago, Oakums Narrowboats said:

Robin. I believe I may be able to answer all your questions, as the manufacture. 

 

The RCD Guidance notes you are looking for fall under B.4. ER 5.6.1 Fire Protection. The type of equipment installed and the layout of the watercraft shall take account of the risk and spread of fire. Special attention shall be paid to the surroundings of open flame devices. In this case; the boat has been constructed with a fire surround to improve, and enhance the stove in question. The harmonised standard is BS EN ISO 9094 Fire Protection. This ER is generally self-explanatory. Under the harmonised standard, a means to alert craft occupants of the outbreak of fire is required, such as a smoke detector or heat detector. In the case of this boat; there have been two placements of fire detection within the living/kitchen area that is interlinked to a fire detector in the front bedroom. Also; all the windows are removable to allow for quick access out the boat. There is no restricted openings or fixed glass units. The skylights would also allow for smoke to escape in the event of a fire, or be access points out the boat to further improve chances of escape. 

 

Solid fuel stoves should be installed to the manufacturer's instructions if these are for boats. If no such instructions exist, then they should be installed to the BS 8511 standard. In the case of this boat, it is fitted with a Morso Squirrel. Narrowboat Stove Safety under the guidance notes a minimum gap of 45mm (~2 inches) between your wall and the narrowboat stove. Also, the wall area nearest to the stove should have a minimum of 25mm (~1 inch) fire retardant board, with a 10mm (~½ inch) air gap between the wall and the board. In the case of this boat; we have exceeded the requirement with 100mm to all sides of the stove from the wall. The wall buildup is further improved from the guidance; as it is tiled; onto 12mm fire cement board, fixed to a 25mm calcium fire retardant board, with a 60mm air void behind.

 

In answer to your question over placement into a cupboard; the images may be misleading your judgement, and I would be more than willing to show you the boat in person. Our reason for the stove recessed between two side walls is… Think safety first!!! Typically a stove would be positioned to the side of an entry door, or access door to a bathroom (or similar). In our opinion, the position of the stove near access ways is a poor practice for several reasons. When a stove is positioned in a corner near an access door; its prone to having increased risk of burn injuries as you are more likely to come into contact with the stove. Our position is central to the living area; away from direct access of any individual. Also, consider pets and children. Are they likely to come into contact with the burning stove if placed incorrectly?

 

The other consideration for your stove’s position is heat distribution. Often, some bright spark would place a stove in the saloon’s corner, away from the corridor leading to the bedrooms. This makes the heat distribution difficult. Another aspect to consider is that no heat will come from the flue (its twin wall). The placement of this stove is central to the boat. This will allow a better flow of heat around the boat. The placement of the chairs either side is protected from the direct heat of the stove and reduce the risk of fire damage. The chairs; often directly in front of the stove can be an uncomfortable heat (Have you ever sat in front of a fire for the duration of a movie? This isn't a home where you are a few meters away.. On a narrowboat, you're often within 500mm?). For the sake of pictures; the chairs had been pushed back, but the reality is that the chair is loose; it is freestanding, and your most likely going to position it to enjoy both the flames and your better half. I will note that the fireplace only protrudes 170mm forward of the cabin walls; its less than a beer can laid flat…

 

In terms of the TV. We have supplied wireless (Doesn’t require constant power supply) TV. This has been placed on the corner unit for marketing, but can be placed on the TV unit opposite the fire; or placed on the wall opposite the fire? It is the preference of the new owners…. If the owner prefers, they can take the TV onto the exterior deck; and watch the sports as they cruise. That will likely be the more restricted view from the living room if placed on the exterior decks, but the advantage of the TV Supplied is that it can go anywhere? Have it in the bathroom; while you soak in the tub if you like….

 

Finally; your question over the flue at the head. This is placed 2 inches from the timber. There is a twin wall, and a 25mm calcium fire board separating.

 

There are many design aspects that you cannot mention in a picture; or video. An example is the dividing walls between the rooms. We don’t use 18mm MDF that is standard on other builders. The doors are not 18mm MDF. Instead; we have solid walls (with voids between, filled with fire insulation). The doors are then solid timber; fire treated. This is designed to give the occupants a better resistance from the potential fire (or smoke). I would be more than happy to give you a tour of the boat if you are interested. I will also be happy to answer any additional questions. 

 

Best Regards.

Please can you give the dimension of the forward hearth ahead of the stove door?

P.s. a good few builders use stud walling and wouldn't touch MDF either ?

Edited November 7, 2020 by Ally

[bizzard]

25 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

You can watch the walkthrough video...

 

 

I don't think they understand fridges. The one on this ship is boxed in and even has another door to hide it. I'd give it 3 months to live in the summer.

[Tam & Di]

20 minutes ago, Oakums Narrowboats said:

In answer to your question over placement into a cupboard; the images may be misleading your judgement, and I would be more than willing to show you the boat in person. Our reason for the stove recessed between two side walls is… Think safety first!!! Typically a stove would be positioned to the side of an entry door, or access door to a bathroom (or similar). In our opinion, the position of the stove near access ways is a poor practice for several reasons. When a stove is positioned in a corner near an access door; its prone to having increased risk of burn injuries as you are more likely to come into contact with the stove. Our position is central to the living area; away from direct access of any individual. Also, consider pets and children. Are they likely to come into contact with the burning stove if placed incorrectly?

If the 'cupboard' walls finished at coaming height that would still answer the safety requirements you suggest, but would allow heat to warm the boat more readily and give a more open appearance to the space.

 

Tam

[bizzard]

40 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It look like this may be the same builder who made "Eastern European Lady's" boat

 

An example of their work (from their website)

 

 

Looks like the bows of Nimo's Naughtilous. Bloddy ugly.

Edited November 7, 2020 by bizzard
Spelling Nautilus.

[Oakums Narrowboats]

1 minute ago, Ally said:

Please can you give the dimension of the forward hearth ahead of the stove door?

Certainly.

 

From the body of the stove; to the front lip of the marble is 225mm. The boat is supplied with a chrome / stainless upstand, that sits on the outer edge of the stone, with a 70mm high lip. This is not shown on the video, but is included within the components. This is made of sturdy, non-flammable material, to fully protect any fabrics or materials from combustibles. This is not part of the code, but is an increased effort of our commitment to the end user.

 

I will further add that in the UK, there are two British Standard; BS5287 and BS4790 for carpets. In reference to this boat the carpets comply with both these codes of practise, and correspond with the latest guidelines for carpet safety. Whilst I appreciate that most carpets will catch fire given enough heat, modern carpets are designed to resist ignition, and if set alight they are designed to resist further burning, and in most cases a patch of burning carpet will extinguish itself in under a minute.. There is also fire extinguishers supplied in several locations throughout the boat. 

 

Timber floors are just as likely to catch fire, and are often not fitted with a Class 0 surface spread of flame treatment. If however; a buyer had preference over timber flooring; or vinyl alternatives (such as karndean), we would not have any problem in making the required changes to the customers satisfaction. 

[Oakums Narrowboats]

7 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

If the 'cupboard' walls finished at coaming height that would still answer the safety requirements you suggest, but would allow heat to warm the boat more readily and give a more open appearance to the space.

 

Tam

Thanks Tom. 

 

Aesthetically; your right. Removing the upper portion of the fire surround would give you a more "Open" use of space; but the space is unusable. While I appreciate it will give you clear sightlines either side of the boat, you are removing the charm of its intended design; which is a fireplace. The intention is create something different than the standard box lines you typically experience, and offers an alternative to the "Normal". 

 

In terms of heat distribution, you do not get heat output from the flue. Therefore the encasement either side will not give you any less heat output. Warm air is less dense than cold air and will rise. Cooler air moves in below to replace the air that has risen. It heats up, rises, and is again replaced by cooler air, creating a circular flow called a convection current. These currents circle and heat the room. The provision of a fire surround will not restriction this from happening; but will give a more comfortable level of heat output from the stove to the users either side. 

 

Fire surrounds have been used for 100's of years in a residential setting; they are aesthetically pleasing on the eye. While this is not a residential dwelling; the aesthetic design will give the new owners a homely ambiance to there environment. Its perhaps not to everyone's taste, but its been designed intentional to provide a safer siting to the users; maintain a more comfortable level of heat to the users; and provide an aesthetically pleasing design feature to remove the traditional linear lines in most new builds. 

 

I will add that not all our boats have fire surrounds; and this is merely a design unique to this boat. 

[bizzard]

What about the stupidly boxed in refridgerator.  Twice during summer heatwaves I've had to deal with closely boxed in fridges like that. Both had ruined their Shoreline fridges through overheating., One of the compressors had badly scorched the panneling behind it, had to add ventilators and remove the cupboard doors, which they had too.

[Ally]

24 minutes ago, Oakums Narrowboats said:

Certainly.

 

From the body of the stove; to the front lip of the marble is 225mm. The boat is supplied with a chrome / stainless upstand, that sits on the outer edge of the stone, with a 70mm high lip. This is not shown on the video, but is included within the components. This is made of sturdy, non-flammable material, to fully protect any fabrics or materials from combustibles. This is not part of the code, but is an increased effort of our commitment to the end user.

 

I will further add that in the UK, there are two British Standard; BS5287 and BS4790 for carpets. In reference to this boat the carpets comply with both these codes of practise, and correspond with the latest guidelines for carpet safety. Whilst I appreciate that most carpets will catch fire given enough heat, modern carpets are designed to resist ignition, and if set alight they are designed to resist further burning, and in most cases a patch of burning carpet will extinguish itself in under a minute.. There is also fire extinguishers supplied in several locations throughout the boat. 

 

Timber floors are just as likely to catch fire, and are often not fitted with a Class 0 surface spread of flame treatment. If however; a buyer had preference over timber flooring; or vinyl alternatives (such as karndean), we would not have any problem in making the required changes to the customers satisfaction. 

Thank you.  It certainly doesn't look that far extending in the photo, so it must be the camera angle. My objection to deep pile carpet comes through being a longterm liveaboard.  It is the most impractical flooring cover I can imagine on a boat, I would have heavily discouraged anyone I built for, from making that choice, but, as i said before, horses for courses.

I understand you have built c.69 boats, is that correct? I took a look at your website, but sadly couldn't see photos or details about them, but I notice the website is 2020, perhaps just a new website awaiting your history.  Surprised I haven't come across Oakums before? Although it does say commercial interiors, so perhaps your 25 years experience is in Onland trade?

[Oakums Narrowboats]

2 minutes ago, bizzard said:

What about the stupidly boxed in refridgerator.  Twice during summer heatwaves I've had to deal with closely boxed in fridges like that. Both had ruined their Shoreline fridges through overheating., One of the compressors had badly scorched the panneling behind it, had to add ventilators and remove the cupboard doors, which they had too.

I cant comment on the install you have, but the fridge we use only has insulated side panels (No mechanical components); therefore there is no risk of over heating on the side panels. In terms of the install we do; the fridge is totally freestanding (like a removable fridge would be; no differences). It is not placed within a cupboard. This allows for air circulation to the fridge. We also provide air ventilation strips (that you cannot see on a video; as its irrelevant) along the baseboards. 

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Ally said:

I understand you have built c.69 boats, is that correct?

Sorry, that may be my fault.

The shell builder has built ~70 hulls many of which go to Lymmn marina.

[Oakums Narrowboats]

4 minutes ago, Ally said:

Thank you.  It certainly doesn't look that far extending in the photo, so it must be the camera angle. My objection to deep pile carpet comes through being a longterm liveaboard.  It is the most impractical flooring cover I can imagine on a boat, I would have heavily discouraged anyone I built for, from making that choice, but, as i said before, horses for courses.

I understand you have built c.69 boats, is that correct? I took a look at your website, but sadly couldn't see photos or details about them, but I notice the website is 2020, perhaps just a new website awaiting your history.  Surprised I haven't come across Oakums before? Although it does say commercial interiors, so perhaps your 25 years experience is in Onland trade?

I dare say you are right. Deep pile carpet can be a nightmare if you walk through with muddy shoes (I can speak from experience with kids on our boat!). That said; the mud room at the front does have a place to clean your shoes; and the kitchen is vinyl. So getting in and out to make a tea or coffee; and you wont cause any marks on the carpet. We certainly wouldn't suggest carpet throughout (as that would be a bad idea!). Carpet in the room designed for relaxing however, is forgivable IMO, and despite having the occasional kid run through the boat in excitement; we did prefer the carpet. It wasn't so cold on your feet. We do say when viewing the boat, if the new potential owners have preference to change for a hardwood floor; or karndean alternative, it can be negotiated in the sale. 

 

In terms of the website you are viewing; I believe you may be looking at Jackson & Sons, who provided the shell in this instance. Where are you looking if you don't mind me asking? Unlike other builders, whose experience is limited to boats, we do (as you've researched); carry out commercial work also. As a subsidiary we are a major fitout contractor in the UK for most of the high street cinemas and restaurants. Our experience in custom manufacturing allows our boats to be the true meaning of bespoke. We are not bound by the typical limitations of others who may not have a wider industry knowledge.  

[bizzard]

1 minute ago, Oakums Narrowboats said:

I cant comment on the install you have, but the fridge we use only has insulated side panels (No mechanical components); therefore there is no risk of over heating on the side panels. In terms of the install we do; the fridge is totally freestanding (like a removable fridge would be; no differences). It is not placed within a cupboard. This allows for air circulation to the fridge. We also provide air ventilation strips (that you cannot see on a video; as its irrelevant) along the baseboards. 

Not my install thank goodness, jobs I was called out for.  What fridges are they? Its the back of electric fridges that can overheat the Danfoss compressor unit or whatever type it has, causing them to run continuousely and eventually burn out. Gas fridges also need plenty of ventillation too. I'd at the very least chuck the cupboard door away.  Sorry to be harsh but believe me the heat that can develop when enclosed like that might I suppose cause a fire.  Note-- the scorched panel behind the one I had to sort.

[David Mack]

The fireplace aesthetic is not for me, but that's a matter of personal choice.

 

But hats off to Oakums for coming on here and explaining dispassionately the reasoning behind their design choices. A lot more constructive than the childish rants we have occasionally had here in the past when other boatbuilders/fitters work has been criticised.

 

And though I don't subscribe to the view that insulated flues improve the efficiency of a stove, this is a neat and tidy twin wall installation.

[mrsmelly]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Sorry, that may be my fault.

The shell builder has built ~70 hulls many of which go to Lymmn marina.

Ive seen worse boats thats for sure. How many years full time living on a boat do the team have? I have met so many over the years that talk about liveaboard spec boats and comfort and very nearly every case they live in houses!! Inexperience shows immediately when the stove position is talked about. I will explain so the builder knows for future reference. The reason many of us position purposely the stove at one end although not stuffed in the corner is due to living aboard comfort, having had a boat with central stove before I always go for stove at one end. The simple reason is that the stove is in the cabin with seating and tv etc and thats were the boat needs to be warmest, far too warm for sleeping so further down the boat comes the galley so a bit cooler followed by the sleeping and bathroom arrangements so cooler still and much better for sleeping whilst still allowing stove in all night at a setting to allow for comfort. This system has worked for decades and continues to do so. It also allows for easier layout of chairs, sofas etc in the day cabin.

[Ally]

1 hour ago, Oakums Narrowboats said:

 

 

In terms of the website you are viewing; I believe you may be looking at Jackson & Sons, who provided the shell in this instance. Where are you looking if you don't mind me asking? Unlike other builders, whose experience is limited to boats, we do (as you've researched); carry out commercial work also. As a subsidiary we are a major fitout contractor in the UK for most of the high street cinemas and restaurants. Our experience in custom manufacturing allows our boats to be the true meaning of bespoke. We are not bound by the typical limitations of others who may not have a wider industry knowledge.  

I was viewing this website which I assume is your website? https://oakums.co.uk/home

So, seems the info that you had built 69 was wrong, as this has been corrected above.

 

Is this your first build, or are there other examples?

 

I appreciate you answering the queries put. When a new boat comes out, there are often questions to accompany things that are different from the "norm".  One of mine would be, how have you got over the problem of condensation on the sunlights? I am assuming they are double glazed but could be wrong? I would still be a bit wary of them, especially over my bed. 

I, personally,  disagree with the "chimney place" being aesthetically pleasing...back to those horses on courses! ? I do like the loo you used however. 

I am sure this will attract a certain type of boat dweller, perhaps someone mostly in a marina, moving off land for the first time, its airy and bright, has "all mod cons" and thick carpet (I take your comments onboard about warmth, but i still prefer good slippers and/or a rug that can be taken out and shaken easily, or washed easily, and a hard wood floor that gets beautiful with age) but for off grid living, especially in a narrowboat as against a widebeam, there are items and features that, for me, wouldn't work. 

 

All the best with it however, I'm certain it has or will sell quickly. Your style would well suit a widebeam build actually. 

 

[sailor0500]

First thought on viewing the video is that the boat is down by the stern. This can be very hard to correct. Having seen that I did not look any further at the video. Not a boat I would buy.

[bizzard]

Perhaps a planning mistake and the stove surround thingy was at first intended to be a shower cubicle.

[dor]

The stove might ( in some eyes) look pretty, but where do you keep the fuel?  One of the big advantages of a stove at the front is that it is handy to get to fuel kept in the well deck.  I wouldn’t want to be carry coal in, or hot ash out, across a light grey fluffy carpet.  Maybe the stove is for show.

 And why only a three burner hob?  In a galley designed to be used for cooking I would want a proper hob.

 I guess the boat would suit someone who wants a weekend cottage in a marina, but it looks very impractical for use by a boater.

[peterboat]

4 hours ago, Ally said:

Our bargain cheaper stove pictured has gone into our new tiny studio boat, its only 20ft (bless) so that will do fine for what we will use it for. It's a cheap and cheerful build! ?  I did look at a pipsqueak for it, but had questions and the company had no answers so that was that.

Boatman are great stoves! I am sat looking at one now heating Jaynes bungalow, it happily turns off the central heating, also no issues with it falling to pieces like squirrels do

[Ally]

I am still wondering about the distance to the wood trim from the stove. Whilst we are told there is 100mm to the walls which are fireboard,  I can't see its 800mm to the wooden trim. I could be wrong.

I haven't watched the video or looked closely at the hob, but guessing there perhaps wasn't the depth for a 4 ring? But then if you can fit a dishwasher in , there should be space for a normal 4 burner.  I must go look at that bit properly. 

7 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Boatman are great stoves! I am sat looking at one now heating Jaynes bungalow, it happily turns off the central heating, also no issues with it falling to pieces like squirrels do

They are. And for the money! I've had many a stove from Northern fabs, not usually boatman's, just a couple. Warms up a twenty footer in no time! ?

 

Edited because it said batman instead of boatman! I'm sure he would warm the boat up too though! ?

Edited November 7, 2020 by Ally