private mooring fees?

[tats]

I understand that there is the CRT licence for a boat to have the run of their waterways, for a boat to be on the water. Fine, I get that. But then there is a mooring licence, which if the mooring was a CRT mooring then fair enough, I get that because the boat is using their mooring. But what if the mooring is not CRT owned, if it is privately owned, land at the other side from the towpath? Does the CRT still ask for a mooring fee even though the boat owner is not using a CRT mooring? If so, how can such a fee be justified when the boat owner has paid to be on the water? If there is such a mooring fee to be paid, then does this fee entitle the boat owner to particular service for the fee? I am very puzzled. It just doesn't make sense to me. 

Edited March 7, 2020 by tats

[Alastair]

I don't think there will be many places where the actual canal bank is privately owned; hence this situation will rarely arise on a canal.

I used to moor on a CRT river (Yorkshire ouse), on a private mooring. Paid river licence fee to CRT (well, BW), and private mooring fees to the land owner (plus council tax, since I was a liveaboard). 

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, tats said:

I understand that there is the CRT licence for a boat to have the run of their waterways, for a boat to be on the water. Fine, I get that. But then there is a mooring licence, which if the mooring was a CRT mooring then fair enough, I get that because the boat is using their mooring. But what if the mooring is not CRT owned, if it is privately owned, land at the other side from the towpath? Does the CRT still ask for a mooring fee even though the boat owner is not using a CRT mooring? If so, how can such a fee be justified when the boat owner has paid to be on the water? If there is such a mooring fee to be paid, then does this fee entitle the boat owner to particular service for the fee? I am very puzzled. It just doesn't make sense to me. 

 

If you are moored on the 'other side' of the canal, then you are still moored in C&RTs water, and over C&RTs land.

You (the land owner) have to apply for permission and pay 50% of the mooring fee charged by other mooring providers in the area.

 

Do a search for EOG (End of Garden) mooring on the C&RT website (I have the document but cannot post it because the forum does not allow Pdfs to be posted,

 

British Waterways
BRITISH WATERWAYS (BW) -GENERAL INFORMATION SHEET
RELATING TO OFFSIDE (END OF GARDEN) MOORINGS (NON
TOWPATH)
1. Canals and canalised parts of rivers that are owned by BW:
The power to charge for "end of garden" moorings arises from the combined effect of common
law and the provisions of the Transport Acts 1962 and 1968.
All use of BW's canals is permissive i.e. by licence of the landowner (British Waterways)
Section 105(5) of the Transport Act 1968 ("the 1968 Act") provides that any local enactment
passed with respect to (BW's owned or managed) inland waterways, so far as it "confers any
public or private right of navigation over the waterway shall cease to have effect".
Section 115 of the 1968 Act provides that ". ..reference to any right of navigation over a
waterway or canal includes references to any right to use or keep any vessel or craft on the
waterway or canal: ..." (emphasis added).

Summary :

 

In summary:
.
? There is no public right to keep or use a boat on BW's canals -such use is permissive
only;
? The beds and waterspace of BW's canals are in the ownership of BW and use without
consent is trespass at common law;
? A BW boat licence entitles use of a boat on a BW canal for cruising and casual mooring
ancillary to cruising, but not long term mooring;
? Long term mooring on a canal requires a separate mooring agreement that grants
exclusive use of the BW waterspace at that site; and
? The powers of BW to charge and impose terms for use of its services and facilities are
derived from Section 43 of the 1962 Act, as supplemented and enlarged by subsequent
legislation.

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[john6767]

It’s different on a river but on a canal usually if you want to moor a boat on the end of your garden then you pay to CRT a fee of 50% of the cost of a local online mooring.   If it is someone else’s land then of course they may charge you on top of that.

[MtB]

18 minutes ago, tats said:

If so, how can such a fee be justified

 

As a aside, CRT don't have to justify anything. They can charge what they like when legally entitled to, which in this case they are. 

 

 

 

 

[Keeping Up]

I am lucky enough to own an offside mooring on the Grand Union. It is not End-Of-Garden mooring as it is attached to my field, and I own the canal bank as well; CRT provide no services, and I even have had to accept responsibility for dredging there. Despite this I have to pay CRT a sum equal to one half of the cost of a local CRT mooring, for a boat whose licence fee already covers the right to float in CRT's water and over their land; then last year they had a review and almost doubled that figure with just one month's notice.

[Momac]

5 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

 last year they had a review and almost doubled that figure with just one month's notice.

So you had been getting it cheap before that?

[fluffflinger]

Allan are you saying they doubled their fee with no justification or reasoning?

 

 I thought your mooring fee was assessed at a level of 50% of the market rate for the area in which your mooring is located???

 

That is scary stuff.

[Keeping Up]

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

So you had been getting it cheap before that?

Probably, I admit, because it had been several years since the previous review!

[MtB]

 

I'd say on line mooring prices have doubled easily in the last ten years.

 

More and more boaters are falling out of love with cheek-by-jowl marina moorings.

 

 

[mrsmelly]

18 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'd say on line mooring prices have doubled easily in the last ten years.

 

More and more boaters are falling out of love with cheek-by-jowl marina moorings.

 

 

Very true. Good online moorings have a premium as they are more sought after and there are now fewer of them since the proliferation of new marinas built in the last 20 years. 

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Very true. Good online moorings have a premium as they are more sought after and there are now fewer of them since the proliferation of new marinas built in the last 20 years. 

 

Quite. I am paying CRT exactly the same for my 'no services' on-line mooring as any of the local marinas charge.

[mrsmelly]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Quite. I am paying CRT exactly the same for my 'no services' on-line mooring as any of the local marinas charge.

You and I would rather have your mooring than any marina mooring ?

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Keeping Up said:

I am lucky enough to own an offside mooring on the Grand Union. It is not End-Of-Garden mooring as it is attached to my field, and I own the canal bank as well; CRT provide no services, and I even have had to accept responsibility for dredging there. Despite this I have to pay CRT a sum equal to one half of the cost of a local CRT mooring, for a boat whose licence fee already covers the right to float in CRT's water and over their land; then last year they had a review and almost doubled that figure with just one month's notice.

 

Out of curiosity, is the amount of interest you could earn in the bank from the value from the mooring land, higher or lower than the EOG charge made by CRT?

 

My guess is lower, so you are probably still up on the deal.

 

 

[Ianws]

Our “Private” mooring is going up approx 2.5% this year, in line withe RPI. CRT explain they are seen as competition to commercial moorings and aren’t allowed to subsidise moorings. One thing I did find when we first started on our mooring was that the info available from CRT was non existent. We had to speak to other people on the mooring and then get in contact with CRT. Info on the CRT website was non existent.

[Keeping Up]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Out of curiosity, is the amount of interest you could earn in the bank from the value from the mooring land, higher or lower than the EOG charge made by CRT?

 

My guess is lower, so you are probably still up on the deal.

 

 

The main thing is that if I didn't own it I would have to pay a lot more for a mooring and on that basis I am definitely ahead. Alternatively by renting it out I can receive an income greater than the CRT mooring fee (and still have a valuable asset) and so still be ahead. But it is still frustrating to have to pay CRT for them providing me with nothing.

[jonathanA]

41 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Quite. I am paying CRT exactly the same for my 'no services' on-line mooring as any of the local marinas charge.

Must be southern thing then as like keeping up im lucky enough to have found a plot of land next to the canal and I’m paying about a third of what I was in a nice marina with all the facilities. 
 

Although it will take a very long time before I break even ! 

[David Mack]

As others have said, you pay CRT 50% of the local going mooring rate to moor on an 'end-of-garden' mooring, because you are mooring over CRT land, even if the land up to the water's edge belongs to the adjacent landowner. This was tested in court a number of years ago and BW (as they were at the time) won the case.

If you moor to a private offside mooring operated by a company, you will pay the mooring operator, but they in turn will pay a proportion of the mooring fees to CRT for the right to operate the moorings. And if you moor in a marina or ofline basin connected to a CRT canal then in most cases (apart from some historic exemptions) the marina operator is paying CRT a fee of 9% of the mooring income (calculated on a full marina, whether or not it is actually fully occupied), for the right to connect the marina to CRT's waters. 

On the natural course of rivers (but not lock cuts), the adjacent landowner usually owns the reiver bed up to the centre of the channel, and so no mooring fees are payable to CRT.

[Arthur Marshall]

Back when I started this lark there was no CRT (or BW) mooring fee, we just paid the farmer his whack. There was much discontent when mooring fees came in, and many attempts to wriggle out of paying them. None worked. There are still those who say the charges have no legal validity but who have never had the nerve to try it in court. Most of those you will find on the other boating forum, still fulminating.

The thing is, the law appears to be the law, at least judges say it is, so whether you think it's fair or not is irrelevant.

I also suspect, as this subject has been done to death, and this is someone's first post (at least under this name), it's a deliberate attempt at trolling!

[tats]

Thank you for your comments. It still seems unjustified as to how they can charge. I suppose this is an old chestnut, and I have a very strong case, and it involves a lot of money owed back, and so it would be expensive to pursue. Clearly it is wrong. All I can say is that I will be moving on because I do not want to be involved with such an organisation. I was misled. Thought they were ok. Another one of those. I'm gonna move on. It's only a bit of watter...............silly money. I suppose it could be used to introduce people without imagination but with money to develop an imagination, perhaps, but I already have one, and I don't need this fleecing and frankly it is not anything I want to belong to. So lets all leave and so all they will be able to sell is a load of stiffs to a load of stiffs. They are using us and charging us to use us. Don't need this at all. What an age to be living in, eh. All the best, folks. Doug x

[Captain Pegg]

8 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Back when I started this lark there was no CRT (or BW) mooring fee, we just paid the farmer his whack. There was much discontent when mooring fees came in, and many attempts to wriggle out of paying them. None worked. There are still those who say the charges have no legal validity but who have never had the nerve to try it in court. Most of those you will find on the other boating forum, still fulminating.

The thing is, the law appears to be the law, at least judges say it is, so whether you think it's fair or not is irrelevant.

I also suspect, as this subject has been done to death, and this is someone's first post (at least under this name), it's a deliberate attempt at trolling!

OP has been a member for a few years Arthur. Not a troll, just someone that can’t get their head around how the world works, or at least refuses to do so when it’s not the way they want it to. No shortage of such folk on the canal.

 

JP

[RufusR]

11 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Quite. I am paying CRT exactly the same for my 'no services' on-line mooring as any of the local marinas charge.

Ditto

[Alan de Enfield]

7 hours ago, tats said:

Thank you for your comments. It still seems unjustified as to how they can charge. I suppose this is an old chestnut, and I have a very strong case, and it involves a lot of money owed back, and so it would be expensive to pursue. Clearly it is wrong. All I can say is that I will be moving on because I do not want to be involved with such an organisation. I was misled. Thought they were ok. Another one of those. I'm gonna move on. It's only a bit of watter...............silly money. I suppose it could be used to introduce people without imagination but with money to develop an imagination, perhaps, but I already have one, and I don't need this fleecing and frankly it is not anything I want to belong to. So lets all leave and so all they will be able to sell is a load of stiffs to a load of stiffs. They are using us and charging us to use us. Don't need this at all. What an age to be living in, eh. All the best, folks. Doug x

 

Just do what I have done, 

Don't pay for a C&RT licence

Don't pay for C&RT for a mooring

Don't bother with a BSS

 

Life is simple.

[Higgs]

12 hours ago, tats said:

I understand that there is the CRT licence for a boat to have the run of their waterways, for a boat to be on the water. Fine, I get that. But then there is a mooring licence, which if the mooring was a CRT mooring then fair enough, I get that because the boat is using their mooring. But what if the mooring is not CRT owned, if it is privately owned, land at the other side from the towpath? Does the CRT still ask for a mooring fee even though the boat owner is not using a CRT mooring? If so, how can such a fee be justified when the boat owner has paid to be on the water? If there is such a mooring fee to be paid, then does this fee entitle the boat owner to particular service for the fee? I am very puzzled. It just doesn't make sense to me. 

 

The only sense that occurs to me is that you are allowed to remain in one place on the canal and avoid being hassled over the 14 day rule, if you have a legitimate place or piece of land by the canal to tie up to, at the cost of a reduced mooring fee to CRT.

 

 

[Captain Pegg]

Are CRT moorings really the equivalent price to a marina mooring in some parts of the country? If I were to move from my (essentially offline) CRT mooring to the local marina a mile up the road my mooring fee would double. Part of the difference is that my boat is below the minimum length at which most marinas set fees and on the CRT mooring I pay in accordance with the boats actual length. Even without that though the fee would still be nearly 50% higher.

 

JP