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mark99

ID Boat London 1958

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15 minutes ago, mark99 said:

If it helps, the rear counter looks like wood inlay and the engine room looks closed/sealed from the back cabin with a riveted bulkhead, there is a little pressure gauge on the roof, the stove works in back cabin and there is a huge speedwheel/gearwheel on the right hand side of the hatch. There is a crossbed.

 

All as would be expected in a Small Woolwich in carrying condition.  The wheel on the right hand side of the hatch will be about 6-7 inches diameter, cast iron, and operates the gearbox. On the left there would originally have been a speed control lever under the cabin roof, operating a wire cable to the engine governor, but by 1958 this would probably have been replaced by a smaller speedwheel.

Edited by David Mack

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22 minutes ago, mark99 said:

If it helps, the rear counter looks like wood inlay and the engine room looks closed/sealed from the back cabin with a riveted bulkhead, there is a little pressure gauge on the roof, the stove works in back cabin and there is a huge speedwheel/gearwheel on the right hand side of the hatch. There is a crossbed.

Is this a guessing game for us - i.e. you know what it is, and we have to come up with the right Small Woolwich.

Or do you not actually know?

I think there were probably 42 Small Woolwich boats in total, and most could probably be quickly eliminated as known to still be on the fleet on that date, or maybe transferred to the BW maintenance fleet.

I don't know the history of Callisto, back that far, but it was a name that came into my head as a likely candidate boat - strongest candidate I can come up with, but I don't know.  (It appeared in various old B&W films I think not a long while after this date).

If you don't know, I think about the only person likely to come up with the answer is probably Pete Harrison.  I don't know of a reliable list that shows how all such boats got sold on from their original operating companies

Edited by alan_fincher

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I think Calisto has done more carrying now than it ever did with the GUCCC.

As an after thought.

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9 minutes ago, fittie said:

Was not Callisto sold off in '47/8?

I don't know, but is one of about 4 boats that the George and the Mary lists as being sold off "after the war  for conversion to pleasure craft".

Is it likely that what is pictured has had a conversion, and has then had it removed to put back into working trim?  Unlikely, I would have thought?

We need Mr Harrison, I think!

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14 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Random guess 

 

Hyperion. 

Might well have been part of the S  E Barlow feet at that time?  (I'm guessing as well!).

At some point in its post GUCCCo life Hyperion lost it's riveted engine room to be replaced by a wooden one, and I rather suspect that was probably pre-1958.  (But again I'm guessing!!).

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29 minutes ago, ChimneyChain said:

Are you one of the little boys Mark?. 

 

Darren 

 

LOL.

 

I don't know the boat but here it is

 

3.26 minutes in.

 

 

 

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I am 99% certain that the small Woolwich motor in this film is ARCAS, which period fleet lists show to be out of service in 1958 and other documents show it to be a 'spare boat' (not a 'change boat') from April 1958 :captain:

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4 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

Well, yes I am aware of that, but am not sure what point you are trying to make. The boat owned by Trevor Maggs was Corona, not Corolla, which was also a small Woolwich built at the same time as Corona with fleet numbers 31 and 32 respectively. it was converted into a Water bus in 1958 named Water Wagtail, and has since been owned by several people.  Corona was transferred into the maintenance fleet after the war, and was later owned by a school in Rugby. Trevor Maggs bought it in 1968 and owned it from then until his sad departure last year.

COROLLA was still in carrying service in 1958 (coming out of service in early 1959), its conversion to a passenger trip boat not being completed until 1960 when as you say it became WATER WAGTAIL :captain:

 

 

Edited by pete harrison

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1 hour ago, pete harrison said:

COROLLA was still in carrying service in 1958 (coming out of service in early 1959), its conversion to a passenger trip boat not being completed until 1960 when as you say it became WATER WAGTAIL :captain:

 

 

That is interesting, your records are undoubtably more accurate than the ones I found. My information came from a C&RT archive photo of Corolla having been converted to a water bus dated 1958 :- http://collections.canalrivertrust.org.uk/bw192.3.2.2.13.1.562

 

image.png.a5ace80b8bc61648c8c1b4dfe9fe5f99.png

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer

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17 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

That is interesting, your records are undoubtably more accurate than the ones I found. My information came from a C&RT archive photo of Corolla having been converted to a water bus dated 1958 :- http://collections.canalrivertrust.org.uk/bw192.3.2.2.13.1.562

I have three 'British Waterways' fleet lists for this period, 10 January 1958 - 20 May 1958 - 26 January 1959 all showing COROLLA running as a single motor, initially with R. Hambridge as steerer and then J. Allcott. 

 

Many of the captions to images published on the CRT Archive website (link shown above) are appalling, and I would not trust any of the dates unless they are substantiated in some way :captain:

30 minutes ago, David Mack said:

A bit of the Registration signwriting is visible at 4:37, but not the all-important details.

A number 8 is visible at 4:09, and with other records helps to identify this boat as most likely ARCAS :captain: 

  • Greenie 2

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8 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

I think you are confusing the funnels that the GUCCCo fitted to the boats from new, (and through which the exhaust did actually pass), with the fake funnels fitted to the London trip boats, (which were actually I believe the container for the Calor Gas cylinder).

You will have seen the former at Alvecote, (on Darley,possibly?), but I very much doubt you will have seen the latter.

A modified version of the trip boat "funnel" did survive on Corolla, (which was one of the London trip boats), in Keith Ball's Industry Narrowboats yard until relatively recently.  However Corolla has now been fully restored to working trim, without such a monstrosity.

Thanks for posting these. Haven't seen Corolla/Water Wagtail/Brummagem Fly/Corolla since the 80s when she was at Foxton. In 1982 the Zoo Bus conversion was still on, even the bus seats, wooden bottoms and a wooden back cabin, but all dropping to bits. I need to look back through the photos to see if I took one that shows it well enough. The engine had been rebuilt (by Tony Clark, so far as I know), it was an HA3 (or HB, but isn't that just a matter of governor springs?), it remained under a canvas in the corner of the workshop the entire time I was at FBS. The boat would sink occasionally, and we'd pump it up again. Eventually the seats were removed, and I think the ballast underneath the floor in the hold as well, and in the winter of 1985-86 the steel back cabin (fitted over the old wooden frames) and those gunnels you can see in the first picture were done (by "Dave", who I think worked for Fernie's in Market Harborough). The new steelwork was not primed then, some talk about letting the millscale weather off first, but amazing to see that it seems to have never had a coat of paint until now!

 

Did she leave Foxton with the Lister, or without an engine, does anyone know?

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Screenshot20200114232446253comandroid157

Capture2.JPG

 

First picture from alan fincher blog site. 

 

The bow of Arcas seems to have a distinct starving dog look in the colour picture.  I guess it's ageing. 

 

I did wonder if the bows might prove the ID story but maybe not. 

Edited by magnetman

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11 hours ago, pete harrison said:

A number 8 is visible at 4:09, and with other records helps to identify this boat as most likely ARCAS :captain: 

Hi Pete,

So if it were Arcas, what was the status and ownership of Arcas in 1958.

My assumption would be that it was on the South East carrying fleet, or was that not the case?

If so BW supplied a boat for the filming, (and presumably had to repaint it again afterwards!).

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1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

Hi Pete,

So if it were Arcas, what was the status and ownership of Arcas in 1958.

My assumption would be that it was on the South East carrying fleet, or was that not the case?

If so BW supplied a boat for the filming, (and presumably had to repaint it again afterwards!).

 

I would guess that in 1958 they probably used a water based distemper minus the casein binder, which would wash off quite easily.

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British Waterways painted their “spare”boats at this time in plain grey although a memo concerning Capricorn also specified a black stripe on the cabin side.  This was presumably to preserve the cabin without going to the expense of a complete repaint.

 

The picture to me looks posed and is probably a still from a film.  I’ve come across it before on the internet - possibly Getty images.  I can’t remember how to do a reverse image lookup.  Any one else fancy a try?
 

Paul

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The credits at the end of the film shows: "The Boat Owner - Robin Ford." Could have been anyone. Anything in your lists Pete?

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33 minutes ago, Paul H said:

The picture to me looks posed and is probably a still from a film.  I’ve come across it before on the internet - possibly Getty images.  I can’t remember how to do a reverse image lookup.  Any one else fancy a try?
 

Paul

Paul,

 

A link has been posted that allows you to view the film it is from.

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21 hours ago, Richard Carter said:

Thanks for posting these. Haven't seen Corolla/Water Wagtail/Brummagem Fly/Corolla since the 80s when she was at Foxton. In 1982 the Zoo Bus conversion was still on, even the bus seats, wooden bottoms and a wooden back cabin, but all dropping to bits. I need to look back through the photos to see if I took one that shows it well enough. The engine had been rebuilt (by Tony Clark, so far as I know), it was an HA3 (or HB, but isn't that just a matter of governor springs?), it remained under a canvas in the corner of the workshop the entire time I was at FBS. The boat would sink occasionally, and we'd pump it up again. Eventually the seats were removed, and I think the ballast underneath the floor in the hold as well, and in the winter of 1985-86 the steel back cabin (fitted over the old wooden frames) and those gunnels you can see in the first picture were done (by "Dave", who I think worked for Fernie's in Market Harborough). The new steelwork was not primed then, some talk about letting the millscale weather off first, but amazing to see that it seems to have never had a coat of paint until now!

 

Did she leave Foxton with the Lister, or without an engine, does anyone know?

Here's a photo from 1983: https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/gallery/image/7382-corolla-brummagem-fly-water-wagtail-22nd-may-1983-foxton/

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8 hours ago, Derek R. said:

The credits at the end of the film shows: "The Boat Owner - Robin Ford." Could have been anyone. Anything in your lists Pete?

I assume he was the actor playing the part of the boat owner.

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1 hour ago, John Brightley said:

Excellent, thanks! Saves me scanning mine, and I've got nothing which shows her this well anyway. I was away on a camping booking with Baldock & Virginis at the time, so that's Coleshill inside Corolla. My diary only refers cryptically to getting the beer tent ready for a non-specific Rally, I guess it was an Inclined Plane Trust event.

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27 minutes ago, Richard Carter said:

Excellent, thanks! Saves me scanning mine, and I've got nothing which shows her this well anyway. I was away on a camping booking with Baldock & Virginis at the time, so that's Coleshill inside Corolla. My diary only refers cryptically to getting the beer tent ready for a non-specific Rally, I guess it was an Inclined Plane Trust event.

Thanks Richard. If you look in the background of the photo of Corolla you'll see some of the rally stalls !

One point of interest in the photo is that much of the boat's paintwork is from its Brummagem Fly days, except where someone's painted some of the panels blue.

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