Peter X Posted January 20, 2020 Report Share Posted January 20, 2020 I'm back on the forums, and hoping to update my profile later today or over the coming days and weeks to allow for having had major surgery for a life-threatening condition on Wednesday 8th January 2020, and being not sure yet when I'll be out boating again, it could be a few months from now. Long live the Croydon Canal song! I have a friend who says he's got a recording of it., and hope to hear that sometime this month and be back to say a bit about it! Peter X 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark99 Posted January 20, 2020 Report Share Posted January 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Peter X said: I'm back on the forums, and hoping to update my profile later today or over the coming days and weeks to allow for having had major surgery for a life-threatening condition on Wednesday 8th January 2020, and being not sure yet when I'll be out boating again, it could be a few months from now. Long live the Croydon Canal song! I have a friend who says he's got a recording of it., and hope to hear that sometime this month and be back to say a bit about it! Peter X All the best with recovery PeterX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter X Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 Thanks mark99 and others who've said similar things elsewhere, I'm working on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Lowe Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) On 20/12/2019 at 13:52, Heartland said: St Colomb Canal, Act 1773, out of use 1781 You can still find some of this one on the ground including the incline at Lusty Glaze. Lusty Glaze incline taken last July when I was there for a wedding, there is a council sign about it at the top of the cliff. Edited January 21, 2020 by buccaneer66 uploaded photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, buccaneer66 said: You can still find some of this one on the ground including the incline at Lusty Glaze. Lusty Glaze incline taken last July when I was there for a wedding, there is a council sign about it at the top of the cliff. I don't see the picture, just a grey No Entry sign. Edited January 21, 2020 by David Mack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Lowe Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, David Mack said: I don't see the picture, just a grey No Entry sign Can you see it in my original post now, I uploaded it rather than link to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st ade Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 36 minutes ago, buccaneer66 said: Can you see it in my original post now, I uploaded it rather than link to it. Yes - very interesting - I feel more research coming on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek R. Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 Long way from Croydon! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Columb_Canal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie patrick Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 I saw the remains of the St Columb Canal about 25 years ago - it would justify a return visit I think. It's one of those curious footnotes of canal history, real "edge of the kingdom stuff". As a concept it was completely bonkers (unlike the Croydon Canal!) - a tub boat canal with a semi-circular route, both ends being above the cliffs at Newquay - why not one canal, or two separate ones (which is what was actually built) and, above all, just.... why???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Lowe Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 49 minutes ago, magpie patrick said: I saw the remains of the St Columb Canal about 25 years ago - it would justify a return visit I think. It's one of those curious footnotes of canal history, real "edge of the kingdom stuff". As a concept it was completely bonkers (unlike the Croydon Canal!) - a tub boat canal with a semi-circular route, both ends being above the cliffs at Newquay - why not one canal, or two separate ones (which is what was actually built) and, above all, just.... why???? There were certainly some bonkers ideas for canals, i have a plan of the croydon canal somewhere i'll have to dig it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter X Posted February 3, 2020 Report Share Posted February 3, 2020 I guess the Croydon Canal wasn't a bad idea in 1809, but it must have cost a lot to build. V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter X Posted February 3, 2020 Report Share Posted February 3, 2020 (oops!) ...Various locks to get up from the Thames to its summit pound along the south side of Sydenham Hill, a reservoir or two to feed that (South Norwood Lake, near the top of the hill), and some locks down into Croydon. Plus some 15(?) miles of canal digging, and the basin at the end near the centre of Croydon. I'm not sure over its 27 years or so whether the investors got their money back, but maybe when the railway company came in with an offer in 1836 or so, they found it tempting. And I suppose the railway investors would have done well out of it. That was before the railway mania of the 1840s crashed the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie patrick Posted February 3, 2020 Report Share Posted February 3, 2020 I hadn't realised Croydon wasn't the summit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartland Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 I see John Rennie was associated with the Croydon Canal, which puts a competent engineer in charge of the project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pluto Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 Sutcliffe, in his 1816 book on Canals and Reservoirs did not consider him competent, and some of his decisions on his earlier canals, particularly the Rochdale, are certainly dubious. He was probably influenced by his time with Boulton and Watt, relying too heavily on steam-powered pumping. On his early projects, he did not have a good eye for water supplies, with such virtually-impossible canals as the Rochdale branch from Todmorden to Lothersdale being proposed. His later work was much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie patrick Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 23 hours ago, Heartland said: I see John Rennie was associated with the Croydon Canal, which puts a competent engineer in charge of the project I think Rennie was a fine Architect and whatever qualification is needed to build lighthouses 19 hours ago, Pluto said: Sutcliffe, in his 1816 book on Canals and Reservoirs did not consider him competent, and some of his decisions on his earlier canals, particularly the Rochdale, are certainly dubious. He was probably influenced by his time with Boulton and Watt, relying too heavily on steam-powered pumping. On his early projects, he did not have a good eye for water supplies, with such virtually-impossible canals as the Rochdale branch from Todmorden to Lothersdale being proposed. His later work was much better. Although neither the K&A nor the Somerset Coal Canal are as high as the northern canals, the water runs out at a much lower altitude, so he hit the same problem here. Although these canals "worked" with their pumped supply they never carried the tonnage of the northern waterways, and in the case of the Coal Canal, it was William Smith who had to sort the practical issues of delivery. Pumping, it transpired, was a better option than the caisson lock! That said I think the K&A wisely went for pumping rather than the original four mile long tunnel that would have avoided the need for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the grinch Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 On 03/02/2020 at 08:25, magpie patrick said: I hadn't realised Croydon wasn't the summit. as far as I know it was! he reservoirs were in the pound below the top two locks and water was pumped up to the summit around locks 27 & 28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie patrick Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 24 minutes ago, hamsterfan said: as far as I know it was! he reservoirs were in the pound below the top two locks and water was pumped up to the summit around locks 27 & 28 Thanks Kev - and welcome back. It's been a while! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pluto Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 5 hours ago, magpie patrick said: That said I think the K&A wisely went for pumping rather than the original four mile long tunnel that would have avoided the need for it. Although tunnels were expensive to build, they did have other advantages. Leakage of ground water into Foulridge Tunnel was calculated to provide around 10 lock fulls per day, probably enough for boats carrying 70,000 tons annually, so not insignificant. The canal was carrying over 250,000 tons annually when the tunnel opened, though half of that was coal from Wigan to Liverpool. As our canals were mostly privately financed, they had to be built on the cheap. This was particularly so for Canal Mania canals, where pumping was used to keep costs down in the forlorn hope that traffic would pay for pumping costs later. Pumping was a reasonable solution for the BCN, where the height of the main line relative to the overall height of the surrounding land made reservoirs more difficult because of restricted gathering grounds. Pumping from mines would have been beneficial as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 3 hours ago, Pluto said: Although tunnels were expensive to build, they did have other advantages. Leakage of ground water into Foulridge Tunnel was calculated to provide around 10 lock fulls per day, probably enough for boats carrying 70,000 tons annually, so not insignificant. That's an interesting thought - Foulridge is a much "drier" tunnel since they stabilised it with concrete, so I wonder if (some of) the groundwater is going elsewhere now. Admittedly a bit less water is better than a collapsed tunnel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie patrick Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) On 06/02/2020 at 11:50, Pluto said: Although tunnels were expensive to build, they did have other advantages. Leakage of ground water into Foulridge Tunnel was calculated to provide around 10 lock fulls per day, probably enough for boats carrying 70,000 tons annually, so not insignificant. The canal was carrying over 250,000 tons annually when the tunnel opened, though half of that was coal from Wigan to Liverpool. As our canals were mostly privately financed, they had to be built on the cheap. This was particularly so for Canal Mania canals, where pumping was used to keep costs down in the forlorn hope that traffic would pay for pumping costs later. Pumping was a reasonable solution for the BCN, where the height of the main line relative to the overall height of the surrounding land made reservoirs more difficult because of restricted gathering grounds. Pumping from mines would have been beneficial as well. Tunnels also presented a significant long term maintenance issue - wheras Combe Hay is the longest lock-flight that is out of use (and the only one in the top-ten I think) the longer tunnels tend to on derelict waterways and indeed their collapse often contributed to the demise of the canal in question. The Coal canal is an odd one, the Summit is only about 300 feet above sea level and couldn't be any lower as the terminal basins are on the valley floor, it isn't a watershed canal. It was also, by the standards of the area, pretty succesful. However the point about dependency on pumping is a good one - the death knell came when Timsbury Colliery refused to provide coal for the pumps as they weren't being paid, and it was only the wet winter of 1898/99 that allowed it a final six months before becoming unuseable Edited after @Tim Lewis spotted my time travel tendency Edited February 7, 2020 by magpie patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Lewis Posted February 7, 2020 Report Share Posted February 7, 2020 17 hours ago, magpie patrick said: Tunnels also presented a significant long term maintenance issue - wheras Combe Hay is the longest lock-flight that is out of use (and the only one in the top-ten I think) the longer tunnels tend to on derelict waterways and indeed their collapse often contributed to the demise of the canal in question. The Coal canal is an odd one, the Summit is only about 300 feet above sea level and couldn't be any lower as the terminal basins are on the valley floor, it isn't a watershed canal. It was also, by the standards of the area, pretty succesful. However the point about dependency on pumping is a good one - the death knell came when Timsbury Colliery refused to provide coal for the pumps as they weren't being paid, and it was only the wet winter of 1998/99 that allowed it a final six months before becoming unuseable A fairly recent abandonment then ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartland Posted February 7, 2020 Report Share Posted February 7, 2020 The pumping at Croydon was done by 1830 by an innovative engine- one of Samuel Brown's gas vacuum engines- a form of early gas engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie patrick Posted February 7, 2020 Report Share Posted February 7, 2020 9 hours ago, Tim Lewis said: A fairly recent abandonment then ? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter X Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 I think the Croydon Canal was abandoned in 1836 by the railway company who'd bought it in order to use much of its land, for what is now called the "Overground" railway from West Croydon via Forest Hill to New Cross and beyond. Therefore not a "recent abandonment". A short section of the Croydon Canal, later lined with concrete not clay, still exists in Betts Park, Anerley, which someone could in theory float along in a rubber dinghy, something I'd like to see done. So I suppose it could be argued that it's not totally abandoned? It depends how you define that maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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