Impact of White diesel cost per month

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Probably because, in the "off road" domain, the quantity of diesel used across that domain is significantly larger than the quantity of petrol. Not only boating, but construction, farming, etc etc. So a scheme of some kind was more pressing. Of course, if you subtly alter the definition from "off road" to "non-propulsion" then you're into the arena of needing to split out the energy in moving a vehicle/machine, vs the energy in doing work which doesn't involve its movement. Eg a tractor that is generating 300hp but only moving 0.5mph because its ploughing at the time (and causing significant soil relocation) vs the same tractor with the lifted implement going along at 15mph on the headland.

Maybe it was the other way way round and diesel was used mainly off road, when they started using it in lorries then maybe they added tax for road use

[peterboat]

I think a poster hit the nail on the head a while ago, he said his supplier was supply more red diesel for the bank than boats! so HMRC just caved in and collect more money from boaters and people that were illegally using red in vehicles maybe?

[Alan de Enfield]

"Pleasure boating" buys 6,400,000 litres per annum of red diesel supplied by 370 RDCO's

As you can imagine, 30,000 'canal boats' are a small fraction of that.

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

"Pleasure boating" buys 6,400,000 litres per annum of red diesel supplied by 370 RDCO's

As you can imagine, 30,000 'canal boats' are a small fraction of that.

That's 213 liters each per year for each boat or about 3 hour engine running per week unless my sums are all wrong

[Momac]

2 hours ago, catweasel said:

 I often wonder how diesel came to have this unfair advantage for boats (though of course being human and a Northener, I have exploited it to the max!)

There is no logic in it but it’s a fact that diesel for boat use at one time attracted low (off road) duty only and its relatively modern thing (since 2008) that some duty has been payable on the propulsion.

History and the law are not always logical or fair.

People (with boats) have come to rely on the lower rate of duty and this particular change is a big jump in price as it must have been in 2008.

I feel for those who will find the extra expense a significant penalty (I don't welcome the extra cost but  am not one of those who will suffer ). I also feel there are other wider economic disadvantages of higher tax as people will make other cuts to fund the diesel price increase.

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

That doesn't make it right

It's right 'cos that's the law - what other meaning to 'right' had you in mind?

[Detling]

For those liveaboards who CC in a small area, surely the easiest solution is a 25 litre tank on the stern for white diesel connected to the engine and keep the current one for red. Use a generator diesel plumbed into main tank for electric and immersion for hot water when the bulk charge phase is over and charging is down to a few hundred watts. you can run diesel stoves or cookers on the red.  25 litres of white will run most canal boats for 10-12 hours which will cover two or three of the fortnightly movements and be easily topped up from a jerrycan.

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Detling said:

25 litres of white will run most canal boats for 10-12 hours which will cover two or three of the fortnightly movements and be easily topped up from a jerrycan.

A Jerry can is 22 litres and you can get an adapter that fits on the 'spout' to run a pipe directly to an engine - often used for running generators where a longer un-attended run-period is required.

Get 2 Jerry's and you are 'sorted'

 

 

 

http://eshop.lmslichfieldltd.com/Jerry-can-adapter-with-fuel-pipe

Edited September 19, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

16 minutes ago, Detling said:

For those liveaboards who CC in a small area, surely the easiest solution is a 25 litre tank on the stern for white diesel connected to the engine and keep the current one for red. Use a generator diesel plumbed into main tank for electric and immersion for hot water when the bulk charge phase is over and charging is down to a few hundred watts. you can run diesel stoves or cookers on the red.  25 litres of white will run most canal boats for 10-12 hours which will cover two or three of the fortnightly movements and be easily topped up from a jerrycan.

As long as said tank and associated pipework comply with the BSS. A modified jerry can and a bit of hose are not going to cut it.

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A Jerry can is 22 litres and you can get an adapter that fits on the 'spout' to run a pipe directly to an engine - often used for running generators where a longer un-attended run-period is required.

Get 2 Jerry's and you are 'sorted'

BSS compliant?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

As long as said tank and associated pipework comply with the BSS. A modified jerry can and a bit of hose are not going to cut it.

BSS compliant?

Basically a 20 litre metal can full of petrol and connected to an engine with a rubber hose is BSS compliant - I don't see why one full of diesel should fail ?

 

The only issue could be the diesel fuel 'return' (surely not insurmountable).

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A Jerry can is 22 litres and you can get an adapter that fits on the 'spout' to run a pipe directly to an engine - often used for running generators where a longer un-attended run-period is required.

Get 2 Jerry's and you are 'sorted'

Would that be BSS compliant

 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Detling said:

For those liveaboards who CC in a small area, surely the easiest solution is a 25 litre tank on the stern for white diesel connected to the engine and keep the current one for red. Use a generator diesel plumbed into main tank for electric and immersion for hot water when the bulk charge phase is over and charging is down to a few hundred watts. you can run diesel stoves or cookers on the red.  25 litres of white will run most canal boats for 10-12 hours which will cover two or three of the fortnightly movements and be easily topped up from a jerrycan.

I have considered many possibilities, but it always comes down to having to pay a few grand for extra kit, in order to save a few bob on diesel.. By not buying such kit, I will be able to pay the diesel increase for several years, perhaps to the end of my (boating) days? The short way of saying that is: "it isn't cost effective!"
Either way it is going to cost me as a liveaboard.

[Dav and Pen]

As a small aside when we where forced to use road diesel instead of red in Belgium in 2007 many barge owners found that their engines ran better and smoked less (lots of them had Daf’s). 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Would that be BSS compliant

 

See post #85

[Paul C]

It would need to be compliant both for BSS and tax purposes (ie whichever tank has the red, can't feed the engine). If that can be achieved economically, great.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Dav and Pen said:

As a small aside when we where forced to use road diesel instead of red in Belgium in 2007 many barge owners found that their engines ran better and smoked less (lots of them had Daf’s). 

I have heard people on the canal say that those Eberslutter things run better on white. Don't have one myself so can't comment.

[ditchcrawler]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Basically a 20 litre metal can full of petrol and connected to an engine with a rubber hose is BSS compliant - I don't see why one full of diesel should fail ?

 

The only issue could be the diesel fuel 'return' (surely not insurmountable).

Is it, inside a boat?

[David Mack]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Basically a 20 litre metal can full of petrol and connected to an engine with a rubber hose is BSS compliant - I don't see why one full of diesel should fail ?

 

The only issue could be the diesel fuel 'return' (surely not insurmountable).

There are specific BSS requirements for diesel installations, which are not necessarily the same as for an outboard petrol tank.  I can't be bothered to look them up on this phone, but my recollection is they are somewhat more onerous.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, David Mack said:

There are specific BSS requirements for diesel installations, which are not necessarily the same as for an outboard petrol tank.  I can't be bothered to look them up on this phone, but my recollection is they are somewhat more onerous.

Petrol being far more volatile than diesel - I'm sure that the BSS people could sort something out to assist boaters trying to fit a second tank - it just takes some commitment to work on behalf of the boaters.

 

A gas locker type of arrangement with an overboard drain ?

[Guest]

Hypothetical question:
A boat has a diesel engine which drives the prop, an alternator of some sort and heats water via cooling. Under new rules it is white diesel only.
You remove the R&D coupling or similar, so can't drive prop. 
Is it now a generator (for taxation purposes) and you can legitimately use red?

[David Mack]

4 minutes ago, catweasel said:

Hypothetical question:
A boat has a diesel engine which drives the prop, an alternator of some sort and heats water via cooling. Under new rules it is white diesel only.
You remove the R&D coupling or similar, so can't drive prop. 
Is it now a generator (for taxation purposes) and you can legitimately use red?

I would say yes, but you would have to completely scrub the fuel system of red as well as replacing the coupling before you can use the engine for propulsion again.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I would say yes, but you would have to completely scrub the fuel system of red as well as replacing the coupling before you can use the engine for propulsion again.

True. I was thinking of a few people I know who never move from one year to the next. Might work for them?

[ditchcrawler]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Petrol being far more volatile than diesel - I'm sure that the BSS people could sort something out to assist boaters trying to fit a second tank - it just takes some commitment to work on behalf of the boaters.

 

A gas locker type of arrangement with an overboard drain ?

Sorry I have lost the plot, why would a boater want a 20 lt  can feeding his engine with petrol when red diesel is no longer available for propulsion.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

Sorry I have lost the plot,

I think you have.

 

There was a suggestion to disconnect the existing fuel tank (from the engine) and use it for red diesel for powering everything 'domestic'.

A jerry can (22 litres) of white diesel could be used to supply the engine giving about 12 hours cruising ( a week or more ?)

2 jerry cans could give a couple of weeks propulsion.

[Paul C]

Diesel is more slippery than petrol (thus, less safe) when its spilt on the deck of a boat or inside on the floor). True, petrol might explode, but that's part of the fun of petrol.