Gas water heaters

[Neil2]

There must be a lot of boats on the system with instant water heaters which don't meet the current BSS regs and I wonder what folk do when these heaters expire? Is it still the case that there isn't really such a water heater that meets all the safety requirements, I'm a bit out of touch. If so, what's the cheapest/most practical alternative?

[Paul C]

AFAIK if the boat's previously fitted with a gas instant water heater, then it can be replaced with a similar one and still pass BSS. The issue is when the boat wasn't, and someone fits one. Whether the BSS examiner will check what was previously fitted, and how its done, I don't know - they may access the previous BSS exam details to do this.

[Rob@BSSOffice]

There must be a lot of boats on the system with instant water heaters which don't meet the current BSS regs and I wonder what folk do when these heaters expire? Is it still the case that there isn't really such a water heater that meets all the safety requirements, I'm a bit out of touch. If so, what's the cheapest/most practical alternative?

 

There may be IGWH that fail flame pattern tests, or that have faulty flues, or that have gas leaking from joints, or that are falling off the bulkhead, but these are just condition checks.

 

There are no inherent compliance issues with any IGWH that I am aware of, so a heater in good condition, burning well and having a proper flue in good condition will pass.

 

BUT....

1. we highly recommend that only room sealed gas appliances be fitted in a boat
2. it may be difficult to find a registered gas fitter who will fit a non-room sealed gas appliance within a boat.

There is no BSS ban on instantaneous gas water heaters.

[sueb]

 

There may be IGWH that fail flame pattern tests, or that have faulty flues, or that have gas leaking from joints, or that are falling off the bulkhead, but these are just condition checks.

 

There are no inherent compliance issues with any IGWH that I am aware of, so a heater in good condition, burning well and having a proper flue in good condition will pass.

 

BUT....

• we highly recommend that only room sealed gas appliances be fitted in a boat
• it may be difficult to find a registered gas fitter who will fit a non-room sealed gas appliance within a boat.

There is no BSS ban on instantaneous gas water heaters.

Is there a list of registered gas fitters who are able to work on boats?

[Rob@BSSOffice]

Is there a list of registered gas fitters who are able to work on boats?

Sorry for the late response to a great question - Boaters are recommended to try the Gas Safe Register advanced search

 

I think anyone using need to select: Domestic / LPG / Boats... in the three boxes before keying in the location

 

The British Marine Federation may also be able to help.

[Chris Pink]

There must be a lot of boats on the system with instant water heaters which don't meet the current BSS regs

 

Bit of a sweeping statement. Do you have anything to back it up?

 

to put this; "fail flame pattern tests, or that have faulty flues, or that have gas leaking from joints, or that are falling off the bulkhead, " the other way round.

 

If any gas heater passes the pattern test, has a functioning flue, properly secured and doesn't leak it's fine for the BSS - you'll notice nothing about age or type.

 

The Morso D61 is the cheapest and simplest new one I know of.

[Tony Brooks]

But if its a new boat being built to the RCD then I think such a heater will have to be CE marked as for boat use - I suspect few are - happy to be proved wrong.

[MtB]

 

Bit of a sweeping statement. Do you have anything to back it up?

 

to put this; "fail flame pattern tests, or that have faulty flues, or that have gas leaking from joints, or that are falling off the bulkhead, " the other way round.

 

If any gas heater passes the pattern test, has a functioning flue, properly secured and doesn't leak it's fine for the BSS - you'll notice nothing about age or type.

 

The Morso D61 is the cheapest and simplest new one I know of.

 

"Burner pressure and/or gas rate", and "effectiveness of the supply of combustion air" (as defined in the Manufacturer's Instructions) are further safety checks which are crucially important too. Mandatory under the GSIUR if a boat is used as a home.

 

MtB

[Guest]

 

Bit of a sweeping statement. Do you have anything to back it up?

 

to put this; "fail flame pattern tests, or that have faulty flues, or that have gas leaking from joints, or that are falling off the bulkhead, " the other way round.

 

If any gas heater passes the pattern test, has a functioning flue, properly secured and doesn't leak it's fine for the BSS - you'll notice nothing about age or type.

 

The Morso D61 is the cheapest and simplest new one I know of.

99% certain that is what we had on the last boat. Definitely a Morso anyway. It was a great bit of kit. When I fitted this boat I I used a calorifier etc, but if ever that calorifier fails (whcih they often do) I might be tempted to put a Morco in its place. Just got to remember to drain down in cold weather. Mine was like this:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Morco-D61B-Water-Heater-/321148110249?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item4ac5eb45a9

Edited July 6, 2013 by Guest

[Neil2]

 

Bit of a sweeping statement. Do you have anything to back it up?

 

to put this; "fail flame pattern tests, or that have faulty flues, or that have gas leaking from joints, or that are falling off the bulkhead, " the other way round.

 

If any gas heater passes the pattern test, has a functioning flue, properly secured and doesn't leak it's fine for the BSS - you'll notice nothing about age or type.

 

The Morso D61 is the cheapest and simplest new one I know of.

Just to clarify, what I meant was there must be lots of boats that have water heaters which you couldn't fit in a a boat today as a new installation. I take the point that if you replace an out of date unit on a "like for like" basis you don't fall foul of the regs.

 

Same applies to solid fuel stoves - if your boat doesn't have one then if you fit one it must meet current regs. but you could replace an existing stove without any modification.

 

I'm asking these q's simply because I'm looking to buy another boat and thinking what the options are if it comes to replacing an old Morco or something. Sounds as though the simplest thing to do is find a secondhand unit.

 

But I'll ask the question again in a simpler form. If you were building a new boat with an instant water heater is there anything currently on the market that would be BSS compliant? I thought that, like fridges, water heaters had to be strictly room sealed, or am I mistaken?

[alan_fincher]

Just to clarify, what I meant was there must be lots of boats that have water heaters which you couldn't fit in a a boat today as a new installation. I take the point that if you replace an out of date unit on a "like for like" basis you don't fall foul of the regs.

You may be trying to clarify, but you are still wrong, I'm afraid.

 

There is nothing in the BSS regs that prohibits the fitting of a brand new opened flue heater like a Morco to an existing boat, and it matters not a jot whether it is a new installation or a replacement of an existing one.

But I'll ask the question again in a simpler form. If you were building a new boat with an instant water heater is there anything currently on the market that would be BSS compliant? I thought that, like fridges, water heaters had to be strictly room sealed, or am I mistaken?

You are wrong, the current BSS for private boats do not require that either are room sealed.

[bizzard]

Prior to about 1985-90 before calorifiers and the like had taken off virtually all boats including hire boats had non-room sealed instantaneous gas water heaters and also gas fridges. Paloma being the most popular water heater plus Morco, Vailant ect and the majority of installations wouldn't comply today on flu length issues as most were only a few inches long ending quite often in a simple mushroom vent or similar. But despite that I never heard of anyone being gasses by one although like anything I expect there must have been one or two cases. Or of one setting fire and burning a boat down to a charred shell. And before the BSS most folk weren't too fussed about fire extinguishers either, indeed many didn't have any at all.

[system 4-50]

You may be trying to clarify, but you are still wrong, I'm afraid.

 

There is nothing in the BSS regs that prohibits the fitting of a brand new opened flue heater like a Morco to an existing boat, and it matters not a jot whether it is a new installation or a replacement of an existing one.

You are wrong, the current BSS for private boats do not require that either are room sealed.

Exactly so.

I shall install both of these (Morco & gas fridge) in the next couple of years and they will pass the BSS. If you (the OP) wish to insist that they will not then please quote the relevant clause number from the online BSS guide and we can explain why your interpretation is wrong.

Edited July 7, 2013 by system 4-50

[frahkn]

The instant water heater on my new (only 2 careful previous owners) boat is a Rinnai, which was fitted to replace a Morco D61. It has only a mushroom covering the flue.

 

The previous owner's BSC was last year and raises no comment on this.

 

Would it be difficult to change the mushroom for a balanced flue?

[MtB]

 

Would it be difficult to change the mushroom for a balanced flue?

 

More than difficult, it is impossible as a balanced flue requires a room sealed appliance, which your Rinnai is not. And the gas regs prevent you from altering the manufacturer's original design of the appliance by the way (if it is a liveaboard.)

 

MtB

[Neil2]

I'm happy to admit my ignorance on this issue, but what prompted the enquiry was an item on another forum where someone had asked a similar question and the reply was along the lines of a qualified gas engineer would not fit a non room sealed appliance in a boat.

 

Clearly I made a wrong assumption regarding the regs, but despite the theory, in the real world how practical would it be to get a suitably qualified person to replace/fit something like a Paloma?

[MtB]

I'm happy to admit my ignorance on this issue, but what prompted the enquiry was an item on another forum where someone had asked a similar question and the reply was along the lines of a qualified gas engineer would not fit a non room sealed appliance in a boat.

The reason for that is most gas technicians are not qualified to fit LPG appliances on boats, and those who are generally have such a shallow grip on the regulations that they prefer to refuse to do ANYTHING they have the vaguest idea might not be in accordance with 'the regs, guv', rather than take the toruble to look them up.

 

 

Clearly I made a wrong assumption regarding the regs, but despite the theory, in the real world how practical would it be to get a suitably qualified person to replace/fit something like a Paloma?

Ah now you're at it as well. To which 'regs' are you referring when you mention 'the regs'? May I suggest sorting out the answer to this question gets you a long way to finding an answer to your OP. If you are fitting out a new build and you are attempting to acheive RCD compliance then you need to meet PD5482 2005 part III, which says (to paraphrase) 'no non-room sealed appliances other than cookers'. If you don't give a toss about RCD then BSS is all you need to meet*.

 

 

MtB

 

*Most BSS bods don't seem bothered, but the BSS requires a gas installation to meet PD5482 too!

 

All clear now??

[FadeToScarlet]

There may be IGWH that fail flame pattern tests, or that have faulty flues, or that have gas leaking from joints, or that are falling off the bulkhead, but these are just condition checks.

 

There are no inherent compliance issues with any IGWH that I am aware of, so a heater in good condition, burning well and having a proper flue in good condition will pass.

 

BUT....

 

• we highly recommend that only room sealed gas appliances be fitted in a boat
• it may be difficult to find a registered gas fitter who will fit a non-room sealed gas appliance within a boat.

There is no BSS ban on instantaneous gas water heaters.

So what suitable for boats room sealed IGWH are there on the market?

 

By which I mean:

 

1. Does not require 240v

2. Has a sensible sized vertical flue with a small part outside the boat that can easily be removed

3. Suitable for running on LPG

 

The Morco F111e fails on 1 and 2 of these cditeria; a small dedicated inverter isn't a problem, just a slight faff, but the flue is.

 

I understand why you recommend fitting only room.sealed appliances, but if they don't exist then people obviously can't fit them.

Edited July 8, 2013 by FadeToScarlet

[alan_fincher]

 

There are no inherent compliance issues with any IGWH that I am aware of, so a heater in good condition, burning well and having a proper flue in good condition will pass.

 

BUT....

1. we highly recommend that only room sealed gas appliances be fitted in a boat
2. it may be difficult to find a registered gas fitter who will fit a non-room sealed gas appliance within a boat.

There is no BSS ban on instantaneous gas water heaters.

I have to say Rob, I strongly agree with Fade to Scarlet here......

 

There is little point in you guys at the BSS office trotting out the same mantra, if what you are telling people to fit isn't actually manufactured and sold by anybody.

 

AFAIK the only candidate balance flue instantaneous heater is the Morco F11e, and it is not possible to use this on a cruising narrowboat because of the fixed and fixed length flue arrangements.

 

So the advice to fit what can't be bought doesn't really help, IMO.

 

[smileypete]

*Most BSS bods don't seem bothered, but the BSS requires a gas installation to meet PD5482 too!

 

All clear now??

 

ISTR the BSS requirement for PD5482 applies to the chapter relating to pipework etc and not the appliances themselves, a look at the guide would tell for sure.

 

Maybe the OP or someone would do best to work through the contacts on the Gas Safe website, and hopefully find someone with a Boats ticket who's happy to fit an IGWH.

 

(But it seems with the advanced search facility you only have to select Boats, and not LPG and Boats together, otherwise it gives less results.)

 

It may be that gas bods are be happier working on an existing install to make it safe than doing a new install, so there might a creative way to get round the problem

 

Also for purely leisure boats there's no requirement to use a gas safe registered bod, but it'd be a very good thing to use someone similarly competent.

 

I have to say Rob, I strongly agree with Fade to Scarlet here......

 

There is little point in you guys at the BSS office trotting out the same mantra, if what you are telling people to fit isn't actually manufactured and sold by anybody.

 

AFAIK the only candidate balance flue instantaneous heater is the Morco F11e, and it is not possible to use this on a cruising narrowboat because of the fixed and fixed length flue arrangements.

 

So the advice to fit what can't be bought doesn't really help, IMO.

 

Might be good to see details of any safety incidents with open-flue IGWH, otherwise why the need to prefer room sealed if open-flue is perfectly safe in practice?

 

Similar thing with fire extinguishers, if a CE marked extinguisher is considered safe perfectly safe for a home, why the need for extra certification for boat ones?

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited July 8, 2013 by smileypete

[Neil2]

Sorry guys, but I'm still confused.

 

BS PD-5482 seems to be the crux of the matter, and I can't find a description online so I don't know exactly what it states, but I suspect this is the regulation that requires appliances on boats to be room sealed?

 

But I'm unsure if, or when, it applies - practically.

 

Presumably a qualified LPG gas installer is going to refer to this PD-5482 whenever they are asked to install or replace an LPG appliance, particularly a heater or water heater.

 

But the BSS only refers to PD-5482 when it comes to "building, fitting out, or making substantial changes".

 

It seems pretty clear that you won't get anyone to install a non room sealed appliance in a new boat...? But the replacement of a worn out or faulty water heater shouldn't be a problem, but in practice are most LPG installers just going to play safe, as it were?

 

The reason I asked this question in the first place is that I like these instant water heaters so if I buy a boat that has one, I'd like to know if I can get it replaced if/when necessary.

 

It seems to me that if you buy a boat that doesn't have any form of water heating, and there are such boats still around, you'll have a devil of a job getting something installed at reasonable expense, certainly if you don't want to or can't, fit a calorifier.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

I have to say Rob, I strongly agree with Fade to Scarlet here......

 

There is little point in you guys at the BSS office trotting out the same mantra, if what you are telling people to fit isn't actually manufactured and sold by anybody.

 

AFAIK the only candidate balance flue instantaneous heater is the Morco F11e, and it is not possible to use this on a cruising narrowboat because of the fixed and fixed length flue arrangements.

 

So the advice to fit what can't be bought doesn't really help, IMO.

 

It is simply about covering their backs. \if it all went wrong for somebody they could say \"We did advise against that."

We would likely do similar in that position.