What are the pitfalls of a wooden superstructure?

[camboater]

I'm buying a narrowboat at the moment as my number has come up for a mooring in Cambridge. One of the boats I'm looking at has a wooden superstructure. We've got narrowboats in the family, but they're all all-steel construction. I've been trying to find a guide somewhere about potential problems with boats that have a wooden superstructure on a steel hull, and the particular maintenance issues they bring, but can't find anything.

 

The chap selling the boat is very genuine but I'd like to know a bit more about what to look for before I view it, in case I end up falling in love with it.

 

All I've been able to find is some vague stuff about steel flexing but wood not flexing, but nothing about the consequences of that or what you should do to avoid problems developing.

 

Any pointers or advice would be much appreciated.

[mrsmelly]

I'm buying a narrowboat at the moment as my number has come up for a mooring in Cambridge. One of the boats I'm looking at has a wooden superstructure. We've got narrowboats in the family, but they're all all-steel construction. I've been trying to find a guide somewhere about potential problems with boats that have a wooden superstructure on a steel hull, and the particular maintenance issues they bring, but can't find anything.

 

The chap selling the boat is very genuine but I'd like to know a bit more about what to look for before I view it, in case I end up falling in love with it.

 

All I've been able to find is some vague stuff about steel flexing but wood not flexing, but nothing about the consequences of that or what you should do to avoid problems developing.

 

Any pointers or advice would be much appreciated.

 

Hi

 

Our first narrowboat bought in 89 was steel hull and wooden cabin. The short answer is THEY ARE GREAT. If you remove the snob factor and look at the facts then they do as with all wood need regular maintenance. We painted ours with good old dulux and it looked good enough and was not expensive to maintain. Very little condensation as the wood breathes and just as warm when insulated. The cabin was about ten years old when we bought the boat and we owned it five years and still solid when we sold it. If you like the boat and its sound I say go for it.

 

Tim

[Burgiesburnin]

I'm buying a narrowboat at the moment as my number has come up for a mooring in Cambridge. One of the boats I'm looking at has a wooden superstructure. We've got narrowboats in the family, but they're all all-steel construction. I've been trying to find a guide somewhere about potential problems with boats that have a wooden superstructure on a steel hull, and the particular maintenance issues they bring, but can't find anything.

 

The chap selling the boat is very genuine but I'd like to know a bit more about what to look for before I view it, in case I end up falling in love with it.

 

All I've been able to find is some vague stuff about steel flexing but wood not flexing, but nothing about the consequences of that or what you should do to avoid problems developing.

 

Any pointers or advice would be much appreciated.

 

It would all depend on how well the two are connected together. Steel and wood will both move. Steel due only to heat and wood to both heat and moisture.

If the boat has any age since being renovated in any way then a certain amount of movement should be apparant and should have been taken into account during initial manufacture.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Burgiesburnin

[MtB]

I'd say the top three problems with wooden tops are as follows:

 

1) rainwater leaking in

2) Rot, usually caused by the above

3) Heavily reduced resale value, caused by fears about 1 & 2

 

Good maintenance is essential. Wooden tops have a look of their own once you get to recognise it, far more pleasing and aesthetic than steel tops to me, but I'd still hesitate to buy one having owned a wooden boat years ago with two imopssible-to-solve rainwater leaks. Being woken up at 3am by a drip of freezing rainwater straight in your ear is NO FUN.

 

My advice would therefore be check carefully for leaks, make sure the price reflects the difficulty you may have in re-selling, then maintain it meticulously.

 

If you find the cabin roof DOES leak and you can't find it (water has been known to emerge inside the cabin many feet away from where it is penetrating on the outside), then I've seen a 2m wide roll of kitchen vinyl flooring laid out on the roof of a full length converted wooden Josher which did the trick very nicely!

[Tuscan]

I totally agree with Mike the Boilerman, I have a wooden top on my small woolwich butty for about 20 years , including replacing the majority of it about 10 years ago. I miss it but it was a constant battle to keep it well maintained and rot free and in the end I hand to move on. If you are a practical person go for it.

[dave moore]

Hi

 

Wooden tops on ex working boat hulls were the norm in the 60s.The durability depends in part on th quality of materials used and the subsequent care and maintenenance.

 

Malcolm Braine built many fine looking wooden cabined at Norton Canes in the 60s and 70s and it's fair to say tat few survive with the original wooden tops today. Some were clad in fibre glass resin and then overpainted while others have been reskinned at the yard. This involves removing the outer wooden skin (often Masonite) leaving the planked inner cabin intact and covering it with steel - it's a slow, highly skilled job!

 

Wooden cabins look good and have a great internal ambience - the beams that support the planking are super and very traditional looking.

 

I'd advise caution, have a really good look for potential problems and be prepared for plenty of maintenance - they need looking after!!

 

Good luck, pm me if I can help further.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[bizzard]

I suppose a damp meter could be used to scan it for any wet rot, damp or pappyness of the woodwork. Although the sure way is to jab all over it with a sharp pen knife blade,but the vendor might not allow that.

[carlt]

I have a 70 year old wooden shed in my garden, in immaculate condition and doesn't let a drop of water in.

 

In my workshop yard there is a rusty pile of sheet steel that pretends to be a 5 year old shed from Argos which hasn't kept the rain out since I took over the yard 2 years ago.

 

Owners of steel boats constantly come here asking about their leaky windows, hatches and so on, moaning about a 10 year old boat needing replating and then they say wooden boats are hard work.

 

A well built, well maintained woodentop will last as long as a steel cabin and, when it comes to maintenance, it is a darn sight easier and less disruptive to reskin a wooden cabin (I've done it with the family still living on their boat).

 

3) Heavily reduced resale value, caused by fears about 1 & 2

This isn't relevant as you would have bought it at a lower price anyway.

 

If I buy a woodentop for £15k and sell it for £12k and someone buys a boat with a steel cabin for £30k and sells it for £25k, who has got the best deal?

Edited May 27, 2012 by carlt

[bizzard]

I have a 70 year old wooden shed in my garden, in immaculate condition and doesn't let a drop of water in.

 

In my workshop yard there is a rusty pile of sheet steel that pretends to be a 5 year old shed from Argos which hasn't kept the rain out since I took over the yard 2 years ago.

 

Owners of steel boats constantly come here asking about their leaky windows, hatches and so on, moaning about a 10 year old boat needing replating and then they say wooden boats are hard work.

 

A well built, well maintained woodentop will last as long as a steel cabin and, when it comes to maintenance, it is a darn sight easier and less disruptive to reskin a wooden cabin (I've done it with the family still living on their boat).

Hear hear,

I've recovered wooden sea boat cabin coach roofs with battened down all around Calico,then fully impregnated it with old oil paint,fully watertight and lasts donkey's years.

[RLWP]

The buyer of the £15K wooden boat. Any wooden boat that you owned and sold is bound to be in a far better condition than when you bought it. I doubt you would put the effort into a steel boat

 

Richard

[zenataomm]

I've had: -

wooden tops (the spottiest spotty dog that ever there was)

Steel

Fibreglass

 

Wood likes to rot

Steel likes to rust

Fibreglass likes to de-laminate (osmosis)

 

 

Go with what your heart says then switch your head on when listening to the surveyor.

 

 

Edited because I wanted to comment "Post 500 and still writing barmy nonsense 5 years on!"

Edited May 27, 2012 by zenataomm

[carlt]

The buyer of the £15K wooden boat. Any wooden boat that you owned and sold is bound to be in a far better condition than when you bought it. I doubt you would put the effort into a steel boat

 

Richard

Actually I've bought some complete dogs of steel boats, made them nice and sold them on at a reasonable profit, whereas I've given away more wooden boats than I've sold (though still in a better condition than when I've acquired them).

[RLWP]

Actually I've bought some complete dogs of steel boats, made them nice and sold them on at a reasonable profit, whereas I've given away more wooden boats than I've sold (though still in a better condition than when I've acquired them).

 

Still the £12K wooden boat. You work on steel boats for profit, and wooden boats for love. I know who I would rather have work on a boat

 

Richard

[carlt]

I have to say that properly taking back a woodentop to the frames and reskinning it is a real pleasure whereas resealing a set of steel cabin windows is one of the most horrible jobs ever.

[Neil2]

Wood is the best material from a DIY point of view but the worst for mass production. We don't see many wooden boats simply because they cost too much to make not because it is an inferior material. If you were to build your own narrowboat it would make perfect sense to make it out of wood. So why worry about a NB with wooden cabin if it is in reasonable nick. Even if it needs work this is well within the scope of the average DIYer.

 

 

[lexicon]

My wooden cabin boat is a joy. And easier and cheaper to deal with.

I replaced the whole frame and top for 3k worth of hardwood and quality ply. And had enough left over to relay the floor and build a cratch frame.

Try getting a 25ft narrowboat cabin in steel for that kinda money.

Just be sure it's looked after.

Mine was rotten when I bought it but the price reflect the work needed.

And they stand out more on the cut too as each is more individual

[camboater]

Thanks everybody! I am amazed to have had so many replies during one day. Very helpful - for example, I hadn't realised that you should expect to pay less for a wooden superstructure boat, other things being equal. Your time and expertise is much appreciated.

[David Mack]

Fulbourne's wooden back cabin was built by Warwickshire Fly in 1987. It has substantial hardwood frames, longitudinal planking and is skinned in 3/4 in plywood, which is very hard (and was very expensive). It has proved to be a worthwhile investment though, as 25 years on, the cabin is still in good condition. The only leakage has been where the wooden roof joins the original steel engine room, but digging out the joint and filling with a flexible sealant seems to have solved that problem.

 

David

[Teadaemon]

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with a wooden superstructure if they're done well, and as others have mentioned, they can have advantages over all steel construction.

 

The hull to cabin joint is a critical area - it needs to be made in such a way that water can not get into it, and if the bottom of the cabin does end up sitting in water then there's a good chance it's going to start rotting. If it is sheathed with glass cloth, then epoxy is a much better resin to use than polyester, as it's far less permeable to water and sticks to wood a lot better. Beware any patches or repairs - a patch has to be very well done to last more than a few months, and if one area has needed a patch, there's a fair chance that other areas will need patching in due course. In that situation, it's often easier to bite the bullet and re-skin the whole lot, rather than keep patching it up. Look carefully around window frames and at any point where anything is screwed or bolted on to the superstructure.

 

In addition to the above, when I'm surveying a wooden cabin I look for blistered or flaking paint, grain visible through the paint, sealant or other signs of running 'repairs' (as they're normally temporary bodges at best), and any signs of water pooling on or around the superstructure. Inside the boat look for water marks on the ceiling or walls, any visible mold, and have a good sniff - you can often smell rot even if you can't see any sign of it. I have a good moisture meter (a Tramex Skipper, designed for marine use) which can tell me if there's moisture deep inside the wood, and I use that to get a general idea of moisture levels, as well as to confirm my suspicions after a visual observation. If I can probe any suspect areas without damaging the finish, then I normally use the tip of my swiss army knife's small blade - if it slides in with little resistance then the wood's definitely rotten (if I'm unsure about an area I often try first with the blade parallel to the grain, and then in the same place across the grain, if the resistance is similar both times then the lignin is being broken down, normally by rot).

 

Cambridge and surrounding area is somewhere I'm happy to travel to, so if you're looking for a surveyor then feel free to PM me.

[George94]

The Trincomalee is built of wood. She was launched in 1817 and is still afloat in Hartlepool today.

 

Wood is super, as long as it is properly maintained.

[Teadaemon]

The Trincomalee is built of wood. She was launched in 1817 and is still afloat in Hartlepool today.

 

Wood is super, as long as it is properly maintained.

 

That's as maybe, but I don't know of many narrowboats with cabins built from Teak, which is what HMS Trincomalee and her sister HMS Unicorn are both built from.

[George94]

That's as maybe, but I don't know of many narrowboats with cabins built from Teak, which is what HMS Trincomalee and her sister HMS Unicorn are both built from.

 

Teak is not the only boat-building timber, you know (and I am sure you do). Victory is made of good English oak.

 

Virtually any hardwood will last for hundreds of years if looked after and kept dry. There's a house in Switzerland, made of pine, which was built in 1287.

 

I first read of Trincomalee in a book by one of Camper and Nicolsons' people, in which he was comparing the virtues of wood compared to GRP, which was then new and untried. Fifty years on, and Trincomalee is still with us.

[Neil2]

The fact is, were you to go to a boatbuilder and ask for a new cabin in steel it would cost far less than replacing the wooden cabin like for like - assuming you could find someone to do it. That, I would argue, is why most woodentops have disappeared. But as a DIY exercise, unless you are skilled in welding/fabrication it is no contest. Given the facilities most of us could build a wooden boat but very few could make one in steel.

[Teadaemon]

Teak is not the only boat-building timber, you know (and I am sure you do). Victory is made of good English oak.

 

Virtually any hardwood will last for hundreds of years if looked after and kept dry. There's a house in Switzerland, made of pine, which was built in 1287.

 

I first read of Trincomalee in a book by one of Camper and Nicolsons' people, in which he was comparing the virtues of wood compared to GRP, which was then new and untried. Fifty years on, and Trincomalee is still with us.

 

Victory is indeed made from Oak (a reasonably good boatbuilding timber, as long as it's not fastened with iron or steel, or in contact with Iroko), and she's been rebuilt at least three times to my knowledge (once in the late 18th Century, the second time in the 1920s, and the third time a few years ago). I'd hazard a guess that less than 20% of her current structure dates from the battle of Trafalgar, and even less from when she was built. Trincomalee and Unicorn have survived nearly two centuries of mostly benign neglect, and required far less maintenance than Victory, as they're built from probably the best boatbuilding timber the Northern Hemisphere has to offer (there's one or two species found in Australasia that can compete with it, but they're mostly protected these days).

 

I agree that if looked after well then wood can last an exceptionally long time. There's a yard full of wooden yachts (mahogany planking on oak frames, finished bright), in my village that are getting on for 80 years old, all of which are in excellent condition as they're looked after properly, but that does mean that they have canvas covers for when they're tied up, and between October and March they're tucked away in a boatshed, being repaired and revarnished.

 

The fact is, were you to go to a boatbuilder and ask for a new cabin in steel it would cost far less than replacing the wooden cabin like for like - assuming you could find someone to do it. That, I would argue, is why most woodentops have disappeared. But as a DIY exercise, unless you are skilled in welding/fabrication it is no contest. Given the facilities most of us could build a wooden boat but very few could make one in steel.

 

That's a very bold statement to make.

 

New steel is not cheap, but dismantling the interior of the boat to a point where it's safe to weld a new cabin on and rebuilding it again afterwards is the really expensive part of having a cabin replaced in steel. With most wooden cabins, total replacement should only be required if it's got extensive rot in the framework, otherwise it should be possible to replace the outer skin, perhaps making local repairs to the framework as necessary. As this doesn't involve globs of molten steel at 1500 degrees C, far less dismantling of the interior is generally necessary.

 

Incidentally, in these parts wooden boatbuilders are two a penny, but I can count the number of skilled welders on the fingers of one hand (or at least those that are willing to work on boats, rather than work in the offshore industry making far more money than they would welding new cabins on).

[carlt]

but I can count the number of skilled welders on the fingers of one hand...

And that's only two or three, if you're a wooden boatbuilder.