Installing a stove

[BlueStringPudding]

Hello,

 

We want to get a Boatman stove installed sometime soon to give us some choice in the fuel we use in winter. I'd like to build the "hearth" and tile the area myself, then get someone in to actually install the stove and chimney for us.

 

I've read with interest the many threads about stove installation on the forum so I've got a good idea of the materials I need, however, I do have a few questions which you guys ('n 'gals) might be able to advise me on:

 

1. Do I need to "board up" the space under the gunnel (does the ledge provide a heat-trap that might be a safety problem?)?
    
   
2. Is it safe for a coal stove to remain lit for days on end? ( I remember speaking to a couple at Fradley over Christmas who's stove hadn't gone out since October!) It'd be great if there are a few glowing embers in there when Kev or I come home from work in winter to take the chill of the place (we both work odd hours!). But only if it's completely safe to leave it unattended for hours on end.
    
   
3. We originally toyed with the idea of getting a stove with a backboiler to feed towel rails in the bathroom and utility room, and possibly additional radiators in other rooms. However we did't want to use the radiators currently installed (powered (allegedly!) by the Eberspacher), because that would mean installing a pump = noise, battery drain and more to go wrong. Plus if left unattended all day, the pump could therefore be running all day and really eat the batteries. So we assumed we'd go for a gravity fed system instead (much as Magnetman sings the praises of) feeding into additional towel rails and radiators.
   

 

 

Our next problem is where to put additional towel rails and radiators! The diagram above shows in red where the current radiators are fitted (portside) and where we'd like the stove to go (starboard side). As you can see, both sides of the boat are full of furniture! A small towel rail would fit into the bathroom on the starboard side, (but a larger one would fit really well higher up on the bathroom/bedroom bulkhead! But I'm guessing this would be too high for a gravity feed to cope with (gravity not being keen on going uphill!) and it would mean some sharp corners for the pipes to go round.

 

Feasibly additional radiators could be placed between the ones already installed, but that means towel rails on the starboard side, radiators on the left, and pipes somehow connecting them across the boat! Gravity feed et al.

 

Basically Kev and I don't know what to do. I like the idea of making use of as much of the energy from the stove as possible, but we are starting to regret trying to plan it now! Kev now says lets get a bog-standard stove with no backboiler! Can't blame him really.

 

Any advice anyone????

[saltysplash]

I am probably wrong not being plumber but thought gravity fed system relied upon a header tank which is fitted higher than the rads. this header tank and heat from the boiler produces the flow of hot water to the rads and cool water back again. something to do with physics. i fink

 

Now waiting patiently to be shot down in flames and slink back off under the deck frames as im humbled by people with knowledge

[Machpoint005]

I am probably wrong not being plumber but thought gravity fed system relied upon a header tank which is fitted higher than the rads. this header tank and heat from the boiler produces the flow of hot water to the rads and cool water back again. something to do with physics. i fink

 

Now waiting patiently to be shot down in flames and slink back off under the deck frames as im humbled by people with knowledge

 

No flames - header tank plus circulation pipework through the back boiler - convection drives the water around!

Ian

[BlueStringPudding]

Does it work well round corners or can this cause airlocks or other problems?

 

And what is the shallowest angle the water pipes can be at to still achieve good flow? If I do install a larger towel rail on the bulkhead between the bathroom and the bedroom, it may only be 6 inches or so below the highest point the header tank can be at.

[bottle]

Hi Blue

 

It is only gravity feed because there is not a pump, it would work if the pipe work was absolutely level. (not downhill from the boiler)

 

The reason for the rise away from the boiler/fire is so that if there was a loss of water from the system there would always be water in the back boiler, helps to stop a big bang

 

If you have a bleed valve at the highest point of the pipe work then there should not be a problem but this does not seem to hold true for your Erbaspacher system

[DHutch]

Certianly if you can set up a system that flows though nateral convection only, thats well worth doing. And is what we have done.

- However, the more contrains you have on pipe/radiator/stove positions, the more unlikly you are going to be able to get it to work.

- The pipeing HAS to come out of the top of the backboiler (in at the bottom) and come out of the bottom of the rads, in at the top.

 

The hard bit is geting the thing going.

- When the radiators are giving out heat, thewater will fall nicly though them. But you have to get them hot first.

- The backboiler being hot will push the water up a degree, but its wise to have the pipe rising out of the stove a bit as well.

- Also, you have to be able to imaculatly bleed the system as well, which is the other reason for having all the pipe rising to a single point.

 

Our pipe rises up out of top of the back boiler to the gunnel, the raises slowly as it goes forwards with the nateral slope on the gunnel.

- Then it fall though the two radiators in the bow, down to floor leval, where it then runs back along the floor, coming up to go into the boiler.

- Its a simple loop, with just a pair of large diameter stright pipes going forwards, two rads on one wall, then runing back again. And that works.

 

 

 

Daniel

[BlueStringPudding]

Thanks everyone. Can anyone advise me on these questions, though?

 

 

"1) Do I need to "board up" the space under the gunnel (does the ledge provide a heat-trap that might be a safety problem?)?

 

2) Is it safe for a coal stove to remain lit for days on end? ( I remember speaking to a couple at Fradley over Christmas who's stove hadn't gone out since October!) It'd be great if there are a few glowing embers in there when Kev or I come home from work in winter to take the chill of the place (we both work odd hours!). But only if it's completely safe to leave it unattended for hours on end."

 

Thanks

[blackrose]

Thanks everyone. Can anyone advise me on these questions, though?

"1) Do I need to "board up" the space under the gunnel (does the ledge provide a heat-trap that might be a safety problem?)?

 

2) Is it safe for a coal stove to remain lit for days on end? ( I remember speaking to a couple at Fradley over Christmas who's stove hadn't gone out since October!) It'd be great if there are a few glowing embers in there when Kev or I come home from work in winter to take the chill of the place (we both work odd hours!). But only if it's completely safe to leave it unattended for hours on end."

 

Thanks

 

1) Yes, protect anywhere you think that the heat could cause damage or start a fire. Your stove should have at least 6" of space behind it. Use the same heat resistant board (e.g. Masterboard) that you use behind the stove & flue for under the gunnel. Cut back a few inches of lining where the flue goes through the ceiling so that the lining is away from the flue, stuff the gap with rockwool and put masterboard around this too. You can buy precut masterboard tiles with a hole for this. You can either tile or put decorative copper effect aluminium sheet over the masterboard. If you tile, I'd recommend using heat resistant silicone (e.g. Plumaflue http://www.countyconchem.co.uk/docs/produc...plumbaflue.htm) as your tile adhesive and then using a flexible grout. If you use regular wall tile adhesive make sure it's flexible.

 

2) Yes, provided you've made a decent job of 1) and there are no curtains or other flammable objects near the fire.

 

Finally in addition to everyone else's comments I'd like to put my tuppenceworth in:

 

Designing an efficient central heating system run on thermocycling (no pump) from a backboiler is a bit of a black art with many factors to consider. Be realistic about what you expect thermocycling to achieve. For example you can't expect a system without a pump to operate a 60ft run and then return unless it's been very well designed. For this reason you often see thermocycling systems where the last radiator doesn't get hot.

 

The combined kw or btu output of the rads (+ pipe) should approximate that of the backboiler. Too many big rads and they won't all get hot, not enough area for radiation and there'll be nowhere for all that heat in the backboiler to go & something might have to give!

 

Use as large dia pipe for the main run as possible. 22mm is good, 28mm is better, but this size will be limited by the outlets from your backboiler.

 

Keep bends in the main pipe run to a minimum and if possible use 2 x 135 deg bends rather than a single 90 deg bend as this facilitates flow around the system.

 

Some people will tell you that the top run should rise all the way to the last rad because heat rises, but common sense tells me that the water from the stove will be cooling as soon as it leaves the backboiler and is only pushed upwards by the hot water in the boiler behind it. For this reason I think it's better to have a steep rise from the backboiler for a short distance, perhaps to the first rad and from then on the run should slope very slightly downhill all the way to the end of the top run and continue downhill on the return. This may be difficult to achieve on a long run.

 

The top pipe run should continue right around the last rad becoming the return run, rather than using just the rad itself to transfer water from top to bottom run as you would if using a pump. This will enhance circulation and hopefully the hot water will then fill the last rad anyway. Connect all four fittings on the final rad. Intermediate rads may only require 2 diagonally opposite fittings connected.

 

A header tank at the highest point off the main run will mean the system is self-bleeding but might have the disadvantage of producing humidity in the boat because the highest point might also be pretty hot. To solve this you could connect the top of the header tank to an outlet in the side of the boat to allow humidity to escape. Other people have the header tank coming off the return run with the tank raised up higher than the rest of the system. If you do this you have to put a bleed nipple at the highest point on the top run. It's an idea to put a couple of blanked off T compression fittings in different places on the main pipe, so the location of the header tank can be changed easily if it doesn't work the first time.

 

Each boat's system is a one-off, not usually designed and built by a heating engineer, so they'll all work at different efficiencies.

Edited August 1, 2007 by blackrose

[stuart]

2) Is it safe for a coal stove to remain lit for days on end? ( I remember speaking to a couple at Fradley over Christmas who's stove hadn't gone out since October!) It'd be great if there are a few glowing embers in there when Kev or I come home from work in winter to take the chill of the place (we both work odd hours!). But only if it's completely safe to leave it unattended for hours on end."

 

If your not on the boat with the stove alight, check your insurance company are happy. I know a lot of people who do this and theres generally never a problem but you never know what can happen whilst you are away.

[BlueStringPudding]

Thanks for that... still not sure whether to chicken out and just go for a stove with no back boiler as it all sounds rather complicated and expensive! I suspect for the amount of money it'd cost us for radiators and getting someone to install all the pipework, we could install 2 Boatman stoves! (Now there's an idea )

 

While we ponder, here's another question. Just done a online reccy into rockwool. There are so many thickness, some on rolls, some as "plates" - where do we begin!?!?

 

Can anyone advise me which type/thickness of rockwool to buy (when building the stove surround)?

 

Thanks

[carlt]

Thanks for that... still not sure whether to chicken out and just go for a stove with no back boiler as it all sounds rather complicated and expensive! I suspect for the amount of money it'd cost us for radiators and getting someone to install all the pipework, we could install 2 Boatman stoves! (Now there's an idea )

 

While we ponder, here's another question. Just done a online reccy into rockwool. There are so many thickness, some on rolls, some as "plates" - where do we begin!?!?

 

Can anyone advise me which type/thickness of rockwool to buy (when building the stove surround)?

 

Thanks

What's the rockwool for? I've never used any when installing a burner.

[John Orentas]

Thanks for that... still not sure whether to chicken out and just go for a stove with no back boiler as it all sounds rather complicated and expensive! I suspect for the amount of money it'd cost us for radiators and getting someone to install all the pipework, we could install 2 Boatman stoves! (Now there's an idea )

Thanks

 

 

There was a very similar thread just a few weeks ago, I made the point then that having a back-boiler and radiators will not improve the heat output from you stove one bit, such a system can only at best distribute the heat a bit better.

[blackrose]

What's the rockwool for? I've never used any when installing a burner.

It's for stuffing between the flue & lining that's cut away from where the flue goes through the ceiling where you've scraped away the sprayfoam (assuming you have sprayfoam.) You don't have to use any but I've always done it and thought most people did. I guess it just means you still have some insulation there. But don't go buying a whole roll of loft insualtion - you just need a football sized lump (and any thickness will do).

 

There was a very similar thread just a few weeks ago, I made the point then that having a back-boiler and radiators will not improve the heat output from you stove one bit, such a system can only at best distribute the heat a bit better.

True, it just distributes the heat a bit better. If your stove is located near the centre of the boat (& the boat isn't too long and it's reasonably open-plan so that the heat can move through it), then don't bother with a backboiler. Edited August 1, 2007 by blackrose

[BlueStringPudding]

True, it just distributes the heat a bit better. If your stove is located near the centre of the boat (erm... no) (& the boat isn't too long (erm... no again!) and it's reasonably open-plan (erm.. no a third time!) so that the heat can move through it), then don't bother with a backboiler.

 

[John Orentas]

Hi Stringy

 

If you you had parted with a bit more info' you could have dispensed with a few 'erms'

[Scotty]

If you you had parted with a bit more info' you could have dispensed with a few 'erms'

She did include a plan of the boat John

 

 

 

Anyone using one of these ecofan things?

sits on the stove and the hot air spins it,

which in theory is meant to circulale the hot air around the boat

ecofan.co.uk

Edited August 1, 2007 by Scotty

[BlueStringPudding]

She did include a plan of the boat John

 

 

Anyone using one of these ecofan things?

sits on the stove and the hot air spins it,

which in theory is meant to circulale the hot air around the boat

ecofan.co.uk

 

 

I've read a few threads about them on this site and the opinions seem fairly mixed. And to be honest, in a boat made of lots of little cabins I doubt how effective it'd be anyway (and none too cheap, neither!)

 

Although Eddie from Northern Fabrications did recommend them to go with a Boatman stove.

[DHutch]

I would have the back boiler.

- Maybe not as many radiators, but its very nice im emilyanne to get the foreward cabin really toasty and warm as well as the galley area.

 

You dont have to "board up" the space under the walkway so its not there, just line the walls with some heatproof board (aquaboard/masterboard/etc).

- And how often you leave the stove alight is your call. But we quite happyly leave it alight when we go out to the pup for four hour, and overnight when were onboard. Same with the fireplace at home. No reason not to if you carefull.

 

 

 

Daniel

[blackrose]

 

Looking at your plan I think you basically have 3 solid fuel stove options.

 

1) Backboiler with rads extending along the length of the boat, run on thermocycling (the rad at end of the system will probably not get that hot if the boat is over 60' unless you design it well and use 22 or 28mm pipe for the main run). I think your plan shows lots of cupboards on the starboard side which could mean a lot of hassle installing the pipework, less places to put radiators and not so much heat output from the pipework itself because most of it's inside cupboards.

 

2) Backboiler as above but with a pump. With this system you could also heat a calorifier. (There are more options now on the type of pump)

 

3) Two Solid fuel stoves without backboilers - one at either end of the boat. (You might end up using a bit more fuel this way).

Edited August 1, 2007 by blackrose

[tomsk]

What's the rockwool for? I've never used any when installing a burner.

 

Please do not use the rockwool as toilet paper.... This has been a Public Service Announcement from The Womble

[Liam]

I don't want to burst your bubble, but if you don't mind me asking, how long is your boat?

 

The reason I ask is because a friend of mine had a 48ft'er with a Boatmans stove placed centrally, in an open planned boat. The stove just didn't have enough "whoomph" to warm the boat enough. Most of the time it was freezing, and to get it slightly warm you had to really crack the fire open to get it roaring. That said, however, on a smaller boat, they'd be a cracking little stove. I'll be getting one for my 30ft'er when I get round to it.

[BlueStringPudding]

I don't want to burst your bubble, but if you don't mind me asking, how long is your boat?

 

The reason I ask is because a friend of mine had a 48ft'er with a Boatmans stove placed centrally, in an open planned boat. The stove just didn't have enough "whoomph" to warm the boat enough. Most of the time it was freezing, and to get it slightly warm you had to really crack the fire open to get it roaring. That said, however, on a smaller boat, they'd be a cracking little stove. I'll be getting one for my 30ft'er when I get round to it.

 

 

The boat's 65ft long - which is why we're toying with the idea of two small (and cheap!) Boatman stoves rather than one larger one. Either that or the backboiler/radiator option. I suspect the cost would be about the same. I'd have to get a quote from someone on installing them though as I have no idea what that would cost.

[carlt]

The boat's 65ft long - which is why we're toying with the idea of two small (and cheap!) Boatman stoves rather than one larger one. Either that or the backboiler/radiator option. I suspect the cost would be about the same. I'd have to get a quote from someone on installing them though as I have no idea what that would cost.

How many more rads would you need, as you already have diesel fired central heating, you can combine the systems.

[BlueStringPudding]

How many more rads would you need, as you already have diesel fired central heating, you can combine the systems.

 

Yes - but that means relying on a pump which we don't want to do really - more to go wrong and a drain on the batteries.

[blackrose]

I don't want to burst your bubble, but if you don't mind me asking, how long is your boat?

 

The reason I ask is because a friend of mine had a 48ft'er with a Boatmans stove placed centrally, in an open planned boat. The stove just didn't have enough "whoomph" to warm the boat enough. Most of the time it was freezing, and to get it slightly warm you had to really crack the fire open to get it roaring. That said, however, on a smaller boat, they'd be a cracking little stove. I'll be getting one for my 30ft'er when I get round to it.

 

Are boatmans stoves supposed to be any good? 4kw output should have been enough to heat a 48' boat if it was properly insulated. Personally I wouldn't go for a steel stove, I think you're better off with a good thick cast iron stove, even though it's probably more expensive. There must be a reason most people choose Morso Squirrels.

Edited August 2, 2007 by blackrose