Installing a stove

[BlueStringPudding]

Are boatmans stoves supposed to be any good? 4kw output should have been enough to heat a 48' boat if it was properly insulated. Personally I wouldn't go for a steel stove, I think you're better off with a good thick cast iron stove, even though it's probably more expensive. There must be a reason most people choose Morso Squirrels.

 

What's wrong with a steel stove? Several people on this forum have recommended them, and having the choice of two cheap stoves rather than one expensive one on our long boat, does appeal as our budget is miniscule!

 

Incidentally I've read quite a few bits about Squirrel stoves cracking.

 

Any advice/recommendations?

[bottle]

Hi Blue

 

Just get the best you can afford and look after it, I suspect that most problems with the steel or cast stoves is the use of them at too high a temperature.

[BlueStringPudding]

Hi Blue

 

I suspect that most problems with the steel or cast stoves is the use of them at too high a temperature.

 

Which I assume is due to the choice of fuel?

[bottle]

Which I assume is due to the choice of fuel?

 

Probably or forgetting to close the vents/air intakes:rolleyes:

Edited August 2, 2007 by bottle

[carlt]

I've never known of, or had a problem with a boatmans. The early ones were a bit digital but the last one I had was better. I've known Squirrels to crack, but mine didn't. I personally don't like their looks and they're a bit big imho.

 

Both are proven products so it's up to you really.

[BlueStringPudding]

Probably

Okay... I won't buy that cheap consignment of aviation fuel then.

I've never known of, or had a problem with a boatmans. The early ones were a bit digital but the last one I had was better. I've known Squirrels to crack, but mine didn't. I personally don't like their looks and they're a bit big imho.Both are proven products so it's up to you really.

Thanks.

[blackrose]

What's wrong with a steel stove?

 

I'd always been led to believe that cast iron is better than steel, but perhaps that's just a personal preference. I know that a good quality thick casting will spread heat throughout the metal better than a steel stove. However, cast iron stoves like the cheap Chinese Clarke stoves from Machine Mart have thin castings and won't perform well, whereas the quality of steel stoves have improved in recent years.

 

Morso are a very good make of cast iron stove and if one or two have cracked it's probably because they've been abused.

Edited August 2, 2007 by blackrose

[BlueStringPudding]

So regarding these cheaper cast iron stoves - do you mean things like this:

 

 

Ebay Stoves

 

 

Because it's the same kinda price that a new Boatman stove comes in at (just shy of £240), but has higher output and is cast iron rather than steel. Does anyone have experience of "Tiger" multifuel stoves or similar cheap ones? Such as Cottager or Woodman stoves?

 

For cheaper stoves: Cast iron vs steel? What do you reckon?

Edited August 2, 2007 by BlueStringPudding

[carlt]

So regarding these cheaper cast iron stoves - do you mean things like this:

Ebay Stoves

Because it's the same kinda price that a new Boatman stove comes in at (just shy of £240), but has higher output and is cast iron rather than steel. Does anyone have experience of "Tiger" multifuel stoves or similar cheap ones? Such as Cottager or Woodman stoves?

 

For cheaper stoves: Cast iron vs steel? What do you reckon?

I'd go for a steel boatman's over a machine mart cast one any day. Can't comment on the ebay ones but they look like the same castings as some of the mmart ones. I'm not sure how importing a burner from china makes them greener?

 

These are recastings from an original burner (not moulds) so the castings are 'fuzzier' and they sort of feel 'looser' sorry about the vagueness but they just don't feel right. An original victorian pot belly feels like it will outlast a MM copy (and probably will).

 

The Boatman's is an original, proven stove which has been around donkey's years. If you want to stay below £250,I don't think you'll do much better, though there are burners out there as good, for similar money, if you want a choice.

[Freetochat]

So regarding these cheaper cast iron stoves - do you mean things like this:

Ebay Stoves

Because it's the same kinda price that a new Boatman stove comes in at (just shy of £240), but has higher output and is cast iron rather than steel. Does anyone have experience of "Tiger" multifuel stoves or similar cheap ones? Such as Cottager or Woodman stoves?

 

For cheaper stoves: Cast iron vs steel? What do you reckon?

 

If it was my choice, I would avoid the ebay stoves based solely on only having a returns policy of 30 days. This seems limited given the product, installation time etc. From your comment, money has to be considered, but buy quality and spend a little more to get something that you can use in safety.

[kerching]

Can i suggest you leave one rad as a heat leak i.e. a rad which you can,t turn off. Usually the bathroom rad in houses but your choice onboard

Edited August 2, 2007 by kerching

[blackrose]

I'm not sure how importing a burner from china makes them greener?

 

The cheapo eBay stoves are bound to be low quality castings.

 

Yes, you're probably likely to get a decent quality steel stove cheaper than a good cast iron one. I can understand your concerns here - it's a sizable investment and you want to get it right. If you want to chat to someone on the phone about stoves try calling these people: http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/

 

Don't expect them to know about boats, but I spent about half an hour on the phone to someone here (can't remember his name) and he really knew what he was talking about. I didn't buy from them in the end because they were out of stock on the stove I wanted, which was just as well as they're not the cheapest place to buy from.

Edited August 3, 2007 by blackrose

[BlueStringPudding]

We're opting for no backboiler now, and a chap is coming to see us next week who will cut a chimney hole, install the stove etc. (Boatman stove)

 

Bearing in mind I've built and tiled the surround myself, and I'm intending to buy the stove, chimney and parts myself; roughly how many hours labour should I expect him to charge me for, (installing stove, flue, chimney, cutting hole, bolting stove down etc)... and he'd probably need to supply any necessary sealants and other consumable for the job (as I don't know what they'd be) etc.

 

... Just so I can guage whether what he charges is reasonable?

 

Thanks everyone.

[ChrisPy]

if it goes smoothly it's a day's work.

 

biggest problem will be if you haven't bought the correct bits.

have you bought a chimney roof collar/flange? does it match the slope of your roof?

the flue should fit the stove (may need an adaptor collar on top of the stove, like on a squirrel) and the roof collar/flange

Have you bought an internal brass trim piece where the flue goes through the ceiling? you can't install it afterwards.

how will he bolt the stove down? can he drill into your base and fit socket bolts or summat like that?

 

sundry materials and sealants - allow £20 max.

Edited August 23, 2007 by chris polley

[BlueStringPudding]

if it goes smoothly it's a day's work.

 

biggest problem will be if you haven't bought the correct bits.

have you bought a chimney roof collar/flange? does it match the slope of your roof?

the flue should fit the stove (may need an adaptor collar on top of the stove, like on a squirrel) and the roof collar/flange

Have you bought an internal brass trim piece where the flue goes through the ceiling? you can't install it afterwards.

how will he bolt the stove down? can he drill into your base and fit socket bolts or summat like that?

 

sundry materials and sealants - allow £20 max.

 

Haven't bought it yet! I thought it best to ask the feller what bits we need as he's coming to look at the surround and ceiling above it next week anyway; rather than risk him telling us we've bought the wrong thing. It'll be a further three weeks till he has time to do the job which gives us time to order the parts. (Hope it doesn't get too cold meanwhile!)

 

So if it could take a day's work - what's a reasonable range in which his hourly rate ought to fall? Are we talking £20 an hour, £30 an hour, £450,000 an hour!?!?!

[ChrisPy]

what's a reasonable range in which his hourly rate ought to fall? Are we talking £20 an hour, £30 an hour, £450,000 an hour!?!?!

yes

[bottle]

Hi Bluestring

 

May I suggest you get a 'quote' for the job, not an 'estimate'.

 

Make sure it is a 'quote' then that is what you pay. No matter how long it takes him.

 

If you get an estimate then the price could go either way but tends to be always up.

 

My local vehicle service agent charges in the region of £60 an hour but they do have to pay for all the services electricity, water etc.

 

I doubt your installer will charge that amount.

[BlueStringPudding]

Hello again.

 

Well, our chap came to look at the stove surround and was pleased with my handywork and has quoted us £300 for labour (incl. VAT according to Kev) so that's sounds pretty good.

 

I'm going to order the Boatman stove in the next couple of days, and I also need to order all the "accessories" to go with it. Please could you let me know what I need to get so I don't miss anything out? Sorry if that sounds a bit thick but I don't want to call the chap in to install it and find there's something I haven't ordered!

• I know I need a 4" flue - do they come in different lengths and if so how do I know what length when I haven't yet got the stove in place (will be ordering it at the same time)?
  
• And I want to get a double-skinned chimney - again is there anything I need to know about chimney types?
  
• I'm also going to need a cuff for where it goes through the roof. I don't know what angle to get (or is there no choice of angle?). The chap who's going to fit it told Kev to get a normal straight cuff and he'd do his best to angle it correctly... is this a good idea? (there's a lot of boats in the area with chimneys at jaunty angles - that's not a look we want to go for!)
  
• Someone on a previous thread mentioned that you can buy a square of masterboard with a hole already cut in it to protect the ceiling from the heat.. Where can I find one of those?
  

Also what other bits and pieces of hardware will I need to order?

 

Thanks everyone!

 

Lisa

Edited August 31, 2007 by BlueStringPudding

[ChrisPy]

depends where you do your shopping.

Midland Chandlers sold me all the bits I needed.

the 4" flue was 5ft long. I had to cut it to suit using an angle grinder.

the standard angled collar was not steep enough for my wide beam, but would suit a narrowboat. if the angle needs to be adjusted it can be done with an angle grinder.

you can get reinforced cement board from B&Q (Aquapanel).

you need the brass trim for the ceiling.

you may need legs that can be screwed down to the base. my Morso didn't have any, I got some from Lockgate. when I received them I realised that they were just bent pieces of steel bar with holes in so a local 'blacksmith' could make them up.

Edited August 31, 2007 by chris polley

[blackrose]

• I know I need a 4" flue - do they come in different lengths and if so how do I know what length when I haven't yet got the stove in place (will be ordering it at the same time)?
  
• And I want to get a double-skinned chimney - again is there anything I need to know about chimney types?
  
• I'm also going to need a cuff for where it goes through the roof. I don't know what angle to get (or is there no choice of angle?). The chap who's going to fit it told Kev to get a normal straight cuff and he'd do his best to angle it correctly... is this a good idea? (there's a lot of boats in the area with chimneys at jaunty angles - that's not a look we want to go for!)
  
• Someone on a previous thread mentioned that you can buy a square of masterboard with a hole already cut in it to protect the ceiling from the heat.. Where can I find one of those?
  

Also what other bits and pieces of hardware will I need to order?

 

Is your flue pipe going to be a straight length out of the stove and through the ceiling? If so just get a length of the correct diameter steel pipe which is longer then you need. Put the stove in place (or go to the shop & measure it) & then measure the gap to the ceiling - allow for a plinth & tiles if there's going to be one under the stove. Also allow for extra to go through the roof and into the collar. The guy who's fitting it should then just be able to cut the extra few inches off with an angle grinder. If it's not going to be a straight flue pipe it gets more complicated and you're going to have to do some accurate measuring with the stove in place, draw your design and get a chandlery or workshop to fabricate the flue - it won't all happen on the same day!

 

You can get some different angled collars but if the angle is extreme some chandleries sell angled hardwood spacers for deck flue collars, or you can make your own.

 

Stainless steel chimneys are best but none of these thin walled boat chimneys last very long.

 

The masterboard square with the hole is sold at good chandleries. Dont forget to put it over the flue BEFORE you install it!

 

Get 2 bolts for your collar, glass rope for stuffing between the flue & collar, a tube of Plumba flue http://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/-PLUMBA-...IDGE_A1CSK.aspx or any other high temperature silicone sealant for sealing the collar to the roof & sealing the gap between flue & collar on the outside. Some people also use this stuff to seal the flue as it leaves the stove but I was told to use stove sealant which goes to much higher temperatures.

Edited August 31, 2007 by blackrose

[BlueStringPudding]

depends where you do your shopping.

Midland Chandlers sold me all the bits I needed.

the 4" flue was 5ft long. I had to cut it to suit using an angle grinder.

the standard angled collar was not steep enough for my wide beam, but would suit a narrowboat. if the angle needs to be adjusted it can be done with an angle grinder.

you can get reinforced cement board from B&Q (Aquapanel). How about the stuff with the hole already cut out of it?

you need the brass trim for the ceiling. What's that look like? Not heard of that before.

 

Thanks.

 

Just browsed a couple of pages of boat accessories here and the range of items is daunting.

How do I know what size chimney goes with a 4" flue? (None of them are 4" so I guess the next biggest size?)

What's inner flue trim and why might I need it?

What's the difference between glavanised and stainless steel chimneys?

Am I going to need a flue pipe reducing socket?

 

Oh blimey... ??????????

[blackrose]

Thanks.

 

Just browsed a couple of pages of boat accessories here and the range of items is daunting.

How do I know what size chimney goes with a 4" flue? (None of them are 4" so I guess the next biggest size?)

What's inner flue trim and why might I need it?

What's the difference between glavanised and stainless steel chimneys?

Am I going to need a flue pipe reducing socket?

 

Oh blimey... ??????????

 

Try not to reduce a flue. The diameter that exits your stove should ideally be the same diameter that exits your boat.

 

With a 4" flue you shouldn't have any problem finding a chimney, or is the standard diameter 4.5"?

 

Do you know a good chandlery in your area?

 

Have a google about and ring up some flue suppliers.

http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/

Edited August 31, 2007 by blackrose

[ChrisPy]

the brass trim is just a brass ring that fits up to ceiling around the steel flue. about 1.5" wide and 1/4" thick with screw 'oles. you'll find it on Midland's website catalogue

Edited August 31, 2007 by chris polley

[wrigglefingers]

Anyone using one of these ecofan things?

sits on the stove and the hot air spins it,

which in theory is meant to circulale the hot air around the boat

ecofan.co.uk

 

Going back to the Ecofan debate, we bought a three bladed one when we first moved aboard. It was expensive but has two very important virtues as far as I am concerned.

 

One - it amuses the cats endlessly.

Two - it allows me to assess at a glance the health of the fire - which given how in frequently I clean the glass is useful!

 

On the heat front, it was expensive but I bought one on the recommendation of my Canadian cousins who use a multi-fuel stove in sub-zero conditions. It does seem to move the air very gently round the boat but not sufficiently well to heat the cold end. We have a pump-boosted gravity feed system which does work when the stove is firing well. I generally use the pump for a few minutes to get the circulation started and then it works on it's own. The system works well when one of the three radiators is turned off and I would echo the comment that radiator output should match the fire output which with a Squirrel is between 2 - 4kw. The new 'Cleanheat' Squirrel outputs 6kw but it is expensive.

 

A few thoughts - when the fire worked well we absolutely steamed last winter, ridiculously having the hatch and doors open at times. Conversely, when the fire got choked up with a sooty flue it didn't. This happened when I hurt my back and I wasn't able to do anything about it and got thoroughly fed-up, not to mention worried about carbon monoxide etc. Good curtains at the windows really help but make sure that you don't block up the ventilation.

 

Signing off now as I am beginning to feel like Rob@BBS again.

 

Shep

[bottle]

Sorry to hi jack this a little.

 

Jill

 

Have you 'balanced' your radiators, if not you may be able to use all of them if you do.