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Electric boats - the future???


MJG

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26 minutes ago, IanD said:

Providing recharging points need not be difficult or particularly expensive -- especially compared to what the roads need -- but it does need government action to make it happen. For example they could legislate to make any company spending money installing road BEV chargers to put (for example) 1% of the sum towards funding for a canal charging network; this would make negligible difference to the road charger economics but would easily pay for the canalside chargers needed. But if they don't care (and CART have little influence) it won't happen... ūüėě

Yes we are far behind the broads with electric power points. I currently am connected to mains with the battery charger on a lower setting, this means that solar tops up the batteries as much as possible. It's cheaper using the mains than running the genny by a long way 

Edited by peterboat
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  • 10 months later...

I know this is an old thread now but surely we don't need to use Lithium batteries on boats.  As far as I can see Carbon AGM batteries would be almost as good at a much lower price.  Weight, on most boats, is not an issue.

Also lithium has a nasty habit of doing this if something is amiss....

3.jpg?ssl=1

I guess insurance could become an issue.

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3 minutes ago, paulg25 said:

I know this is an old thread now but surely we don't need to use Lithium batteries on boats.  As far as I can see Carbon AGM batteries would be almost as good at a much lower price.  Weight, on most boats, is not an issue.

Also lithium has a nasty habit of doing this if something is amiss....

3.jpg?ssl=1

I guess insurance could become an issue.

We tend to use Lifepo4s on boats that dont do the above. The batteries you suggest are big heavy expensive and very slow charging, not long lived in a traction situation. I have lifepo4s on my boat which have worked well for 3 years, they are second life and were not expensive 

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

We tend to use Lifepo4s on boats that dont do the above. The batteries you suggest are big heavy expensive and very slow charging, not long lived in a traction situation. I have lifepo4s on my boat which have worked well for 3 years, they are second life and were not expensive 

I agree with this. Time and time again people say this about batteries.  They are not the same as used in cars

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2 hours ago, paulg25 said:

I know this is an old thread now but surely we don't need to use Lithium batteries on boats.  As far as I can see Carbon AGM batteries would be almost as good at a much lower price.  Weight, on most boats, is not an issue.

Also lithium has a nasty habit of doing this if something is amiss....

3.jpg?ssl=1

I guess insurance could become an issue.

Of course, it has never been known for a Petrol or diesel car to catch fire or perhaps they have?

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2 hours ago, peterboat said:

We tend to use Lifepo4s on boats that dont do the above. The batteries you suggest are big heavy expensive and very slow charging, not long lived in a traction situation. I have lifepo4s on my boat which have worked well for 3 years, they are second life and were not expensive 

 

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1 hour ago, churchward said:

Of course, it has never been known for a Petrol or diesel car to catch fire or perhaps they have?

 

Indeed.

 

I deleted my earlier post saying the the exact same thing.

 

But on reading the OP (from today rather the actual OP) again the question seems to be specifically about the propensity of lithium batteris to catch fire?

Edited by M_JG
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3 hours ago, paulg25 said:

Also lithium has a nasty habit of doing this if something is amiss...

 

Lithium batts come in loads of different types. Some do that, some don't. 

 

What flavour of lithium is in that Tesla?

 

 

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10 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Lithium batts come in loads of different types. Some do that, some don't. 

 

What flavour of lithium is in that Tesla?

 

 

 

I thought that we have been told that Tesla are swapping to LiFePo4 batteries, maybe fed up with images of Teslas on fire.

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Tesla seem to be moving to LFP for standard range but keeping NMC for long range vehicles.

 

https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/563/tesla-s-lfp-iron-batteries-compared

 

iron-nickel-batteries.jpg

 

Also interesting about the LFP was that there were mass failures of Valence battery packs in the "Boris Bus" which was the modern rounded shape hybrid bus built by Wrightbus for Transport For London.

 

https://www.bestmag.co.uk/londons-hybrid-buses-suffer-li-ion-battery-failures/

 

 

"31 Jul 2015

Out of the 500 new Routemasters currently on the roads, 80 of them are running in diesel-only mode because of failed batteries, and 200 of the buses are due to have their batteries replaced, TfL told the BBC.

The first new Routemasters were introduced in February 2012, with problems with the batteries being flagged up as early as March 2015."

 

Intriguing story as that must have been a big hit for the manufacturer.

 

Don't know where all the Valence batteries went or what was wrong with them ... however driving a bus on electric power is seriously demanding so maybe they just weren't "hard enough".

 

Anyway LTO looks interesting for hybrid use but it is generally a lot more costly than the LFP. I don't know which batteries went into the problem buses. Its an interesting thing all these Lithium batteries.

 

Chinese electric buses seem to be mostly using LTO chemistry. Very high  charge and discharge capability and massive number of cycles some claims say 20,000 cycles. Also not negatively affected by low temperatures.

 

 

I think the ideal electric boat setup would be a pod drive in the rudder and keep the existing diesel engine. I suppose this might make steering awkward but if the control for the motor was fixed to the end of the tiller arm as a twist grip you could just take the power off when needing to apply rudder.

 

People would have to learn new steering techniques but it could be quite rewarding in a way. Plus that way you would have redundancy as there would be two propulsion systems. Large alternator driven by the tailshaft from the main diesel engine for charging the C10Kwh battery bank. Just size the batteries to run for a couple of hours at max power (4kw pod would do it). Cover roof of boat in solar for extra input.

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I thought that we have been told that Tesla are swapping to LiFePo4 batteries, maybe fed up with images of Teslas on fire.

Also cheaper. They're swapping to LFP for their lower-end higher-volume models, and keeping NMC for the high-end lower-volume ones because energy density is higher.

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14 hours ago, M_JG said:

 

Indeed.

 

I deleted my earlier post saying the the exact same thing.

 

But on reading the OP (from today rather the actual OP) again the question seems to be specifically about the propensity of lithium batteris to catch fire?

Or it has to be said in the context of the thread OP that it is far from unknown that a damaged lead acid battery explodes/catches fire on boats.

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3 hours ago, magnetman said:

Tesla seem to be moving to LFP for standard range but keeping NMC for long range vehicles.

 

https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/563/tesla-s-lfp-iron-batteries-compared

 

iron-nickel-batteries.jpg

 

Also interesting about the LFP was that there were mass failures of Valence battery packs in the "Boris Bus" which was the modern rounded shape hybrid bus built by Wrightbus for Transport For London.

 

https://www.bestmag.co.uk/londons-hybrid-buses-suffer-li-ion-battery-failures/

 

 

"31 Jul 2015

Out of the 500 new Routemasters currently on the roads, 80 of them are running in diesel-only mode because of failed batteries, and 200 of the buses are due to have their batteries replaced, TfL told the BBC.

The first new Routemasters were introduced in February 2012, with problems with the batteries being flagged up as early as March 2015."

 

Intriguing story as that must have been a big hit for the manufacturer.

 

Don't know where all the Valence batteries went or what was wrong with them ... however driving a bus on electric power is seriously demanding so maybe they just weren't "hard enough".

 

Anyway LTO looks interesting for hybrid use but it is generally a lot more costly than the LFP. I don't know which batteries went into the problem buses. Its an interesting thing all these Lithium batteries.

 

Chinese electric buses seem to be mostly using LTO chemistry. Very high  charge and discharge capability and massive number of cycles some claims say 20,000 cycles. Also not negatively affected by low temperatures.

 

 

I think the ideal electric boat setup would be a pod drive in the rudder and keep the existing diesel engine. I suppose this might make steering awkward but if the control for the motor was fixed to the end of the tiller arm as a twist grip you could just take the power off when needing to apply rudder.

 

People would have to learn new steering techniques but it could be quite rewarding in a way. Plus that way you would have redundancy as there would be two propulsion systems. Large alternator driven by the tailshaft from the main diesel engine for charging the C10Kwh battery bank. Just size the batteries to run for a couple of hours at max power (4kw pod would do it). Cover roof of boat in solar for extra input.

 

 

It is strange Andrew, because my lifepo4s came from Wright buses, I didn't think Valence made anything but Lifepo4s so the article seems to be at odds with itself? 

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2 hours ago, peterboat said:

It is strange Andrew, because my lifepo4s came from Wright buses, I didn't think Valence made anything but Lifepo4s so the article seems to be at odds with itself? 

 

 

 

The term "Lithium Ion" is a reference to the type of battery rather than the chemistry of the battery. All rechargeable Lithium batteries are properly described as Lithium Ion regardless of the specific cathode materials.

 

A lot of people seem to think that "Lithium Ion" is referring to Nickel based Lithium batteries like NMC and NCA but it isn't. It is a very common misunderstanding.

 

Valence made LiFePO4 (LFP, Lithium Ferro-Phosphate) batteries which are a type of Lithium Ion battery so the article is actually technically correct although slightly confusing.

 

I find it best to use simple 3 letter acronyms for each type as it rules out any confusion.

 

Standardisation is important otherwise it all goes wrong.

 

ETA

 

That is interesting about the Valences as James told me they came from a failed Ford Transit electric van project. Apparently the motor was too small to shift the wagon uphill when loaded. Maybe he had more than one source. He does still have some of the green ones.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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57 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

 

 

The term "Lithium Ion" is a reference to the type of battery rather than the chemistry of the battery. All rechargeable Lithium batteries are properly described as Lithium Ion regardless of the specific cathode materials.

 

A lot of people seem to think that "Lithium Ion" is referring to Nickel based Lithium batteries like NMC and NCA but it isn't. It is a very common misunderstanding.

 

Valence made LiFePO4 (LFP, Lithium Ferro-Phosphate) batteries which are a type of Lithium Ion battery so the article is actually technically correct although slightly confusing.

 

I find it best to use simple 3 letter acronyms for each type as it rules out any confusion.

 

Standardisation is important otherwise it all goes wrong.

 

ETA

 

That is interesting about the Valences as James told me they came from a failed Ford Transit electric van project. Apparently the motor was too small to shift the wagon uphill when loaded. Maybe he had more than one source. He does still have some of the green ones.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I said Andrew Valence always refers to their batteries by chemistry not the generic name.

James had a few sources for the 12 volts valence batteries, but the 36 volts ones were from Wright bus direct,  they had done there 5 year service life and were changed for new ones, whole packs at a time I bought 30, others bought them via James, he said it was to much money to it on his own. Mine were all nearly new, I stripped packs down and chose newest which James and I had agreed on.

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On 25/11/2021 at 13:13, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Tesla's new cyber-truck can tow up to 14,500+ lbs depending on version.

 

Towing range 125 miles.

 

Tesla Cybertruck - What Can It Tow? (electrictowcars.co.uk)

 

The cheapest model which is the Single Motor/RWD will be able to tow 7,500+ lbs. The next step up will be the Dual Motor/AWD variant with a towing capacity of 10,000+ lbs. With the highest specification currently announced being the Tri-Motor/AWD with a towing capacity of 14,000+ lbs. The use of the + symbol by Tesla is interesting, as it implies the vehicles could very well exceed those tow ratings. We will just have to wait and see to find out if that’s the case.

 

Tesla Cybertruck Towing

Even if I could afford one I wouldn't buy one, it is possibly the ugliest thing ever built, it must have been designed by a drunk blind 5yr old coming down from a bad LSD trip

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1 minute ago, tree monkey said:

Even if I could afford one I wouldn't buy one, it is possibly the ugliest thing ever built, it must have been designed by a drunk blind 5yr old coming down from a bad LSD trip

 

100% agree. Hideous turd on wheels.

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7 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Even if I could afford one I wouldn't buy one, it is possibly the ugliest thing ever built, it must have been designed by a drunk blind 5yr old coming down from a bad LSD trip

Yep, only a mother could love that one.

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2 hours ago, peterboat said:

As I said Andrew Valence always refers to their batteries by chemistry not the generic name.

James had a few sources for the 12 volts valence batteries, but the 36 volts ones were from Wright bus direct,  they had done there 5 year service life and were changed for new ones, whole packs at a time I bought 30, others bought them via James, he said it was to much money to it on his own. Mine were all nearly new, I stripped packs down and chose newest which James and I had agreed on.

The failed batteries in the London buses were Valence LiFePO4 batteries. The article I linked to is written by someone who uses the generic term for Lithium batteries. That is all I was saying although as usual I did present it in rather more words than were needed !

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, magnetman said:

The failed batteries in the London buses were Valence LiFePO4 batteries. The article I linked to is written by someone who uses the generic term for Lithium batteries. That is all I was saying although as usual I did present it in rather more words than were needed !

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then they were the ones I bought, along with James and the others, the packs were 5 years old and had many replacement batteries of which I purchased 30 of the newest. As to why they were failing who knows? In my boat they are lightly stressed in comparison to the bus they were in.

Of course it could be down to Valence saying charge to 100% rather than the 80% us second user's seem to do?

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I would not be at all surprised if it was to do with the full charge thing. The buses must use huge amounts of power and although LFP is good it might not really be suited to that sort of loading. Maybe overheating?

 

With buses it is going to be all about rapid charge and discharge. Very rapid. Maybe someone just made a calculation error in the design phase.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

I would not be at all surprised if it was to do with the full charge thing. The buses must use huge amounts of power and although LFP is good it might not really be suited to that sort of loading. Maybe overheating?

 

With buses it is going to be all about rapid charge and discharge. Very rapid. Maybe someone just made a calculation error in the design phase.

 

 

 

 

 

Mine are safe then, currently having a sleep until spring next year unless we have a warm and dry spell this new year

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