furnessvale Posted August 28, 2018 Report Share Posted August 28, 2018 4 hours ago, Peter Thornton said: Horsepower is a complex subject. I’ve read that a horse can produce 14.9 horsepower, at peak............. I've also read that a single horse would be hard pressed to turn out 1 bhp constantly for a decent length of time. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cereal tiller Posted August 28, 2018 Report Share Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, furnessvale said: I've also read that a single horse would be hard pressed to turn out 1 bhp constantly for a decent length of time. George He would just dig his Heels/Hooves in? Edited August 28, 2018 by cereal tiller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea Dog Posted August 29, 2018 Report Share Posted August 29, 2018 15 hours ago, Peter Thornton said: Horsepower is a complex subject. I’ve read that a horse can produce 14.9 horsepower, at peak............. Power = Torque x Revs. Rev up, Neddy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0atman Posted August 29, 2018 Report Share Posted August 29, 2018 Could there be a comparison with Boy Racers and their big bore exhausts and the older gents with their Trads ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Bob Posted August 29, 2018 Report Share Posted August 29, 2018 14 hours ago, MartynG said: A reliable and means of battery charging silently is clearly a great benefit to anyone with a boat. Has anyone on the canals considered a fuel cell? They seem a very good solution for keeping the batteries topped up. https://www.efoy.com/ Not for me at present as the I would not see sufficient benefit for the cost . However we can only hope the price would reduce with time. Are there any manufacturers of comparable devices , other than efoy? I saw these being sold ten years ago and the sellers seem to have made little progress. The big stumbling block for the target market for boats....lumpy water boats....was the use of methanol which is very flammable and the problem of supply. Almost impossible to source when moving from port to port. They would work well on a NB in winter if all the yards stocked the fuel. They are not going to come down in price. People were looking at using diesel as the fuel source back in the 80's and 90's but that was never good enough. Couldnt see a price on these units or the fuel. Crap website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momac Posted August 29, 2018 Report Share Posted August 29, 2018 3 hours ago, Dr Bob said: I saw these being sold ten years ago and the sellers seem to have made little progress. The big stumbling block for the target market for boats....lumpy water boats....was the use of methanol which is very flammable and the problem of supply. Almost impossible to source when moving from port to port. They would work well on a NB in winter if all the yards stocked the fuel. They are not going to come down in price. People were looking at using diesel as the fuel source back in the 80's and 90's but that was never good enough. Couldnt see a price on these units or the fuel. Crap website. I know of a lumpy water boat I Sweden with an efoy fitted. I share concern over safety of the fuel container . It does seem disappointing the design has not moved on . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Bob Posted August 29, 2018 Report Share Posted August 29, 2018 28 minutes ago, MartynG said: I know of a lumpy water boat I Sweden with an efoy fitted. I share concern over safety of the fuel container . It does seem disappointing the design has not moved on . I quite like the idea on a an NB as you could store the methanol on the roof and it does last quite a while per sealed container - they reckon 4 weeks at 30 Ahrs per day input. The prices were ridiculously high 10 years ago but I couldnt see prices on this web site. Do you know what they are? As hardly anyone is using them, it is difficult to know how robust they are, as the technology uses membranes. I never liked technologies that used membranes during my time at work and people with water makers were always having issues with them on the lumpy water boats...so not sure if these fuel cells are robust enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momac Posted August 29, 2018 Report Share Posted August 29, 2018 6 hours ago, Dr Bob said: I quite like the idea on a an NB as you could store the methanol on the roof and it does last quite a while per sealed container - they reckon 4 weeks at 30 Ahrs per day input. The prices were ridiculously high 10 years ago but I couldnt see prices on this web site. Do you know what they are? As hardly anyone is using them, it is difficult to know how robust they are, as the technology uses membranes. I never liked technologies that used membranes during my time at work and people with water makers were always having issues with them on the lumpy water boats...so not sure if these fuel cells are robust enough. I have my doubts about robustness Google finds the prices which are eye watering . The fuel is very expensive too. I suspect using ordinary methanol could damage the diaphragm . That's all too rich for me but i do like the concept. https://www.fruugo.co.uk/fuel-cell-efoy-comfort-140i-6-a/p-10743114-22572044?ac=adtail&utm_source=shoptail&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=ComparisonShopping https://www.fuelcellsystems.co.uk/product/methanol-m10-box-of-2/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Bob Posted August 29, 2018 Report Share Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, MartynG said: I have my doubts about robustness Google finds the prices which are eye watering . The fuel is very expensive too. I suspect using ordinary methanol could damage the diaphragm . That's all too rich for me but i do like the concept. https://www.fruugo.co.uk/fuel-cell-efoy-comfort-140i-6-a/p-10743114-22572044?ac=adtail&utm_source=shoptail&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=ComparisonShopping https://www.fuelcellsystems.co.uk/product/methanol-m10-box-of-2/ Wow, you're right. £4K for the unit and £50 per 10L of methanol. Assuming you want 30Ahr per day for 50% of the year that seems to be around £300/year for fuel. More expensive then than lithiums before considering any technical issues. No point in even discussing those issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0atman Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 £50 per Litre and it comes out of the wells with natural gas .No wonder the development of platform and terminal was paid for so quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Bob Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 1 minute ago, b0atman said: £50 per Litre and it comes out of the wells with natural gas .No wonder the development of platform and terminal was paid for so quickly. Er no. Methanol does not come out of wells with natural gas. You take the natural gas which is methane, and react it to syn gas and then to methanol. A typical world scale methanol plant making 1,000,000 te per year costs £100'sM. Don't know the current methanol price but likely near £300/te. That is more than £5/l. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 55 minutes ago, Dr Bob said: Er no. Methanol does not come out of wells with natural gas. You take the natural gas which is methane, and react it to syn gas and then to methanol. A typical world scale methanol plant making 1,000,000 te per year costs £100'sM. Don't know the current methanol price but likely near £300/te. That is more than £5/l. This is consistent with last time I looked (briefly) at fuel cells. Methanol was priced at about £7 per litre retail IIRC from the (very rare) fuel cell suppliers, ex VAT and ex shipping. Probably closer to £10/litre now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momac Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said: This is consistent with last time I looked (briefly) at fuel cells. Methanol was priced at about £7 per litre retail IIRC from the (very rare) fuel cell suppliers, ex VAT and ex shipping. Probably closer to £10/litre now. The price for 2x10litres is £96 in my earlier link. So about £5 per litre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 On 28/08/2018 at 17:15, Peter Thornton said: The only time I knocked on a boat to ask them to stop was at Llangollen at about 7am. Being as every berth has mains power I didn’t see why it was necessary ....... Mains power is no use to us, we are a 12V boat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doratheexplorer Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 On 27/08/2018 at 09:52, Mike the Boilerman said: I get people knocking on the boat complaining that I turned the Kelvin OFF. "Hey mate, I was enjoying listening to your engine, why you turn it OFF?!" This just proves that noise issues are subjective. Objectively, the noise from a vintage engine is more intrusive than a modern thingy like a beta. An old engine will almost certainly be louder and produce a sort of banging noise whereas a modern engine just produces a low hum which is easily convered by tv or radio noise. I had a russell newbery breasted up to me for a few days once and it did my head in. The thumping went straight through my hull and disturbed me no matter what I did to drown it out. Of course, being a good boater I didn't dare say anything because, you know, these old engines are sacred and cannot be criticised in any way. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Thornton Posted August 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, RLWP said: Mains power is no use to us, we are a 12V boat So are we, but it goes to an onboard battery charger ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doratheexplorer Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) On 27/08/2018 at 17:46, Gareth E said: I much prefer the relatively high pitch of the petrol genny to the lower tone of a diesel engine. I suppose that fits in with my dislike of music when you can only hear the bass. As for storing petrol, it's easy, I store it in the petrol tank of my motorbike then siphon some into the genny as required. Simples. Inboard diesel engine noise seems to be less intrusive than genny noise but it carries through the water far further. You can barely hear my genny at 20m away even when you're outside, but an engine on at the same distance is clearly heard inside my boat. 3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said: Edited August 30, 2018 by doratheexplorer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, Peter Thornton said: So are we, but it goes to an onboard battery charger ..... It still wouldn't help our boat. We would have to run the engine for hot water and battery charging 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Thornton Posted August 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, RLWP said: It still wouldn't help our boat. We would have to run the engine for hot water and battery charging But you can charge your battery from the mains then use 12volt from there? Doesn’t help with the hot water I know, but solutions are available. We all need to realise that there is a concerted effort to clean up diesel emissions and the time is soon coming when running engines in towns will not be allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doratheexplorer Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 On 28/08/2018 at 11:16, plainsman said: I thought I was fairly tolerant of engine running until last week when moored at Wheaton Aston visitor moorings. Livaboard moored opposite decided to runup the engine, all well and good but after four hours I asked if they could switch off as engine noise was spoiling a nice sunny afternoon. Reply was quite toxic "I can run my engine till 8pm if I want". I was only asking for a reasonable use of engine. Engine was eventually turned off at 7.30pm after 5 hours of running at high speed. Not very considerate in my view and not good PR for livaboards. I hope this behaviour was the exception. There are lots of threads on here about battery charging where people say they run their engine 2 hours daily and a long 7-8 hour charge once a week. It's deemed to be good practice for looking after your batteries. Why should this person be excluded from that? I often run my engine for over 5 hours and I bet loads of other people on here do too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Thornton Posted August 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said: There are lots of threads on here about battery charging where people say they run their engine 2 hours daily and a long 7-8 hour charge once a week. It's deemed to be good practice for looking after your batteries. Why should this person be excluded from that? I often run my engine for over 5 hours and I bet loads of other people on here do too. We run our engine for around 5 hours on most days - but we are moving. Even CC’s are meant to move sometimes ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said: I often run my engine for over 5 hours and I bet loads of other people on here do too Bloody hell, I'm glad I'm not your neighbour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doratheexplorer Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 On 28/08/2018 at 18:28, frangar said: Funny that...as the proud owner of a lovely Lister JP I’ve lost count on this summers boating of the number of compliments about the sound of my engine....from other boaters and those walking the bank...something you just don’t get on a boat with a digger engine...I love the sound of a big twin...or indeed a fine semi diesel. I feel sorry that you have no soul.... Taking a step back, this seems like an odd argument. If you really want to be a boater with soul, you need a horse. An engine driven boat is, by definition, not traditional. If we start from about 1770, then the majority of boats were horse drawn for around 150 years. It's only in the last century that changed. The practical different between a Kelvin, a BMC and a Vetus is minimal compared to the difference of using a horse. Diesel and air go into cylinders, it burns and energy is produced. Liking the sound of the way one engine does this just because it's older or you own one is largely born out of snobbery. Criticising other boaters for having the wrong sort of engine is just divisive and unhelpful. We have far more which unites us that divides us. 29 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said: Bloody hell, I'm glad I'm not your neighbour. If you moored next to me, I'd run my engine from 8-8 daily. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirweste Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 I tend to run mine for a couple of hours every other day, with a big top up once a week or once every two weeks - depending on sunshine. It's a dirty and noisy Perkins lump, having it running for like 8 hours is torture! So I tend to do it when no one is about, including me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doratheexplorer Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 Just now, sirweste said: I tend to run mine for a couple of hours every other day, with a big top up once a week or once every two weeks - depending on sunshine. It's a dirty and noisy Perkins lump, having it running for like 8 hours is torture! So I tend to do it when no one is about, including me Yep, snap! I do this in winter when the solar don't work. I would guess that at least half of continuous cruisers do too. The other half are knackering their batteries. Obviously any liveaboard with a mooring but no mains electric will likely do the same. My view is, if you're on a vistor mooring (like Wheaton Aston) where there are loads of moored boats, it's highly likely that you're gonna hear some engine running. Likewise, if you moor right up to a lone boat moored way out on their own, then expect that they may have done this because they're planning to make a noise (of course, it works the other way and the lone boat may have been hoping for peace and solitude, so don't be the asshole that moors up next to an isolated boat and immediately fires up their genny). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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