A Message from Richard Parry to Boaters

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, ianali said:

I can’t understand why you all seem so hung up about grammar. I can see it as important sometimes, book writing for instance. But on signs? If the sign is generally understandable then that is enough for me. Life is too short! 

It is not specifically the grammar, its more the total image portrayed by C&RT -  'couldn't really care', or 'do the minimum to get the job done'.

Another example is repairs where the canal ends up shallower than they started, locks that leak thru' the walls after rebuilding, the list is never ending.

 

C&RT are looking for a 'new image', maybe 'Bodgit & Scarper' would suit ?

[Tanglewood]

10 hours ago, magictime said:

Do the producers of "Woman's Hour" think there's only one woman?

No, and if the plural of woman were 'womans', they would be wrong.  They could have chosen Women's Hour, but radio programme makers were always encouraged to think they were speaking to just one person ............  remember the late great Terry Wogan who repeatedly spoke to his 'dear listener'.  

 

So far as all the other examples are concerned - it would be a mistake to assume that because errors are widespread, they are no longer errors.  Conventions will change over time, but the use of a singular possessive pronoun instead of a plural possessive pronoun, unless it was done deliberately for a purpose, is an error.  I do not know 'The Pocket Idiot's Guide to Grammar and Punctuation' but I would venture a suggestion that the title is meant to be enjoyed as irony, and explained within the text, because as well as the wrong use of the apostrophe - if they did mean to suggest there is more than one idiot out there, the title also uses the word 'pocket' as an adjective, and then attaches it to the wrong noun.  I don't believe this is a guide for  pocket idiots, but a pocket guide for idiots.  So it could be written thus : 'An Idiot's Pocket Guide to ..............' or 'A Pocket Guide to Grammar and Punctuation for Idiots' 

[Horace42]

11 hours ago, magictime said:

 

 

Hmm. Does the existence of a "Boater's Handbook" also imply that there's only one boater? Do the producers of "Woman's Hour" think there's only one woman? Is "The Pocket Idiot's Guide to Grammar and Punctuation" aimed at just one person who might have missed some of the subtleties in, say, the rules for using apostrophes with singular and plural nouns?

 

I mean, fair enough if you think "Boaters' Facilities" would read better or whatever,  but I think it's stretching a point to suggest that "Boater's Facilities" is grammatically wrong just because there's more than one boater out there.

 

It could be correct if the facilities - toilets for instance - were used by one person (one boater) at a time - similar to the office sign where there could be many teachers but only room for use by one at a time.

Personally I would have dodged the apostrophe issue by rewording the sign.

[magictime]

On 08/06/2018 at 09:41, Tanglewood said:

Conventions will change over time, but the use of a singular possessive pronoun instead of a plural possessive pronoun, unless it was done deliberately for a purpose, is an error.  I do not know 'The Pocket Idiot's Guide to Grammar and Punctuation' but I would venture a suggestion that the title is meant to be enjoyed as irony, and explained within the text, because as well as the wrong use of the apostrophe - if they did mean to suggest there is more than one idiot out there, the title also uses the word 'pocket' as an adjective, and then attaches it to the wrong noun.  I don't believe this is a guide for  pocket idiots, but a pocket guide for idiots.  So it could be written thus : 'An Idiot's Pocket Guide to ..............' or 'A Pocket Guide to Grammar and Punctuation for Idiots' 

I think you mean possessive nouns, not pronouns.

On 08/06/2018 at 09:41, Tanglewood said:

I do not know 'The Pocket Idiot's Guide to Grammar and Punctuation' but I would venture a suggestion that the title is meant to be enjoyed as irony, and explained within the text, because as well as the wrong use of the apostrophe - if they did mean to suggest there is more than one idiot out there, the title also uses the word 'pocket' as an adjective, and then attaches it to the wrong noun.  I don't believe this is a guide for  pocket idiots, but a pocket guide for idiots.  So it could be written thus : 'An Idiot's Pocket Guide to ..............' or 'A Pocket Guide to Grammar and Punctuation for Idiots' 

Hmm. It looks to me as if "Idiot's Guide" is being used (legitimately) as a compound noun. In terms of grammatical structure, then, the phrase "The Pocket Idiot's Guide" is just the same, and just as correct, as something like "the heated swimming pool".

On 08/06/2018 at 09:41, Tanglewood said:

So far as all the other examples are concerned - it would be a mistake to assume that because errors are widespread, they are no longer errors.

I'm not sure how to respond to this. The obvious way to persuade someone that a given use of language is legitimate is to show them some examples of language being used in that way by people who know what they're doing; preferably examples that look 'right' and/or familiar. If they then just insist that everyone else is wrong, I don't really know what else to do other than throw some more examples at them. What about "tradesman's entrance"? (Stop sniggering at the back.) So far as I can see it's always been "tradesman's", not "tradesmen's", and no dictionary has anything to say about this being a mistake on the grounds that the entrances are actually intended for the use of more than one tradesman. But it's grammatically no different from "Boater's Facilities".

On 08/06/2018 at 11:14, Horace42 said:

It could be correct if the facilities - toilets for instance - were used by one person (one boater) at a time - similar to the office sign where there could be many teachers but only room for use by one at a time.

Personally I would have dodged the apostrophe issue by rewording the sign.

Yeah, in terms of nuance I think this is probably on the right lines, but I do think it's a question of nuance and not of CRT having made some egregious schoolboy error.

[Tanglewood]

2 hours ago, magictime said:

I think you mean possessive nouns, not pronouns

No, I don't.  The expression Boater's facilities is a contraction of  'the boater, his facilities' so Boater's is short for Boater, his, which is why you need an apostrophe as you have removed 'hi'.  The word 'his' is a possessive pronoun.

[Tanglewood]

2 hours ago, magictime said:

Hmm. It looks to me as if "Idiot's Guide" is being used (legitimately) as a compound noun. In terms of grammatical structure, then, the phrase "The Pocket Idiot's Guide" is just the same, and just as correct, as something like "the heated swimming pool".

Sorry but that is not right.  The only construction that would be acceptable without changing the word order would be, 'The Pocket, Idiot's (or idiots) Guide'.  

In the example you give, 'heated' is an adjective as is 'swimming'.  

[magictime]

10 hours ago, Tanglewood said:

No, I don't.  The expression Boater's facilities is a contraction of  'the boater, his facilities' so Boater's is short for Boater, his, which is why you need an apostrophe as you have removed 'hi'.  The word 'his' is a possessive pronoun.

Eh? So what's "Woman's Hour" a contraction of? Or "Boaters' Facilities"? The apostrophe-s on the end of "Boater's" isn't being used to form a contraction; it's being used to form the singular possessive form of the noun. Google it. Forming contractions and forming possessives are two quite distinct uses of the apostrophe.

 

10 hours ago, Tanglewood said:

Sorry but that is not right.  The only construction that would be acceptable without changing the word order would be, 'The Pocket, Idiot's (or idiots) Guide'.  

In the example you give, 'heated' is an adjective as is 'swimming'.  

No, 'heated' is an adjective but 'swimming' is part of the compound noun 'swimming pool'. It's a swimming pool that is heated, not a pool that is both heated and swimming! See also "curdled cow's milk", "modern tower block", "wooden tailor's dummy" etc. And "The Pocket, Idiot's Guide" wouldn't be acceptable - the comma has no business being there.

 

[Horace42]

57 minutes ago, magictime said:

Eh? So what's "Woman's Hour" a contraction of? Or "Boaters' Facilities"? The apostrophe-s on the end of "Boater's" isn't being used to form a contraction; it's being used to form the singular possessive form of the noun. Google it. Forming contractions and forming possessives are two quite distinct uses of the apostrophe.

 

No, 'heated' is an adjective but 'swimming' is part of the compound noun 'swimming pool'. It's a swimming pool that is heated, not a pool that is both heated and swimming! See also "curdled cow's milk", "modern tower block", "wooden tailor's dummy" etc. And "The Pocket, Idiot's Guide" wouldn't be acceptable - the comma has no business being there.

 

Not being an expert in grammar - and not having numerous reference books to hand - I tend to rely of the Rupert cartoon serial for help. It strikes me as being very good in handling punctuation - as I would expect being aimed at children - even us old ones.

[WotEver]

I was taught that the possessive ‘apostrophe s’ was itself a contraction, of ‘es’. 

 

So instead of writing “Johnes boat” we write John’s boat”

[MtB]

What if John doesn't have a boat...?

[WotEver]

21 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

What if John doesn't have a boat...?

Well then silly, it wouldn’t be his, would it? 

[Tanglewood]

8 hours ago, WotEver said:

I was taught that the possessive ‘apostrophe s’ was itself a contraction, of ‘es’. 

 

So instead of writing “Johnes boat” we write John’s boat”

And it would appear that you are right, and my version is no longer the most popular theory!

 

From Miriam-Webster: 

Then people began using apostrophes to indicate the genitive (or possessive) role of a noun, confusing the public even further. The role of the apostrophe in a phrase like “the apostrophe’s role” was hotly debated for decades. Some people thought that the s at the end of a word indicating possession was simply a stand-in for “his,” and so “the king’s book” would be the shortened version of “the king his book.” This theory is no longer popular. Instead, it seems likely that the genitive apostrophe is an illustration of our language’s older, highly inflectional state.

[WotEver]

40 minutes ago, Tanglewood said:

And it would appear that you are right, and my version is no longer the most popular theory!

Dunno about ‘no longer’... I was taught that over 50 years ago...

[mayalld]

On ‎07‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 13:58, Tanglewood said:

You are entirely right.  Given the hullabaloo around the whole re-branding - it behoves CRT to get their signage right, so they present themselves as a credible professional organisation.  They just do not need anything that produces a negative reaction, from anyone. It doesn't matter how many people aren't bothered, this is something that could have been 100% correct - and they missed the opportunity - possibly because they were in so much of a hurry to start putting up new signs that the attention to detail was missed.

 

Nowadays, thank goodness, schools do teach Grammar.  It is true that Richard Parry is of an age when they did not.  In fact when my daughter, born in 1970, became a teacher some twenty years ago, she found that, not only was the  grammar she was expected to teach not taught to her during her training, but she could not fall back on grammar taught at school. By way of contrast, my 11 year old grandson can analyse a sentence and completely understands the value of clauses in parenthesis.  He has no problem at all with possessive pronouns and is irritated by what is known as the 'greengrocers' apostrophe'.

 

 

And can tell you what a fronted adverbial is no doubt!

[Sir Nibble]

Sod the punctuation, what about the words? When did amazing stop meaning a source of great surprise and become a synonym for good. When did incredibly stop meaning beyond credibility and become another word for very? I keep hearing of people working "incredibly hard", what like 20 hours a day 7 days a week? Because that's very hard but still credible.

[magictime]

11 hours ago, WotEver said:

Dunno about ‘no longer’... I was taught that over 50 years ago...

Just been reading a bit about this online and apparently there's a theory that people started writing "John his boat" because they were mishearing "Johnes boat" as "John his boat" with a dropped 'h'... and that this is part of what encouraged the appearance of the apostrophe in "John's" (i.e. some people were mistaking it for a contraction of "John his"). So although "Boater's" isn't actually a contraction of "Boater his", it sounds like there might be something in what Tanglewood says as a sort of etymological "just so" story about how the possessive form got its apostrophe.

[Sir Nibble]

Still on signs but back to a message to boaters. How about a sign on every lock landing saying "No fishing. Offenders will have permit revoked upon first offence". That would send a message to boaters that they are not ALWAYS at the bottom of the pecking order.

[Victor Vectis]

21 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

What if John doesn't have a boat...?

Janet might have one.

15 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

Still on signs but back to a message to boaters. How about a sign on every lock landing saying "No fishing. Offenders will have permit revoked upon first offence". That would send a message to boaters that they are not ALWAYS at the bottom of the pecking order.

The notice on the pontoon below Torksey Lock has something to that effect.

'Boats have priority ' or somesuch if memory serves.

[Sir Nibble]

53 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

Janet might have one.

The notice on the pontoon below Torksey Lock has something to that effect.

'Boats have priority ' or somesuch if memory serves.

Until anglers decide to ignore that and fish there regardless only to find there are zero consequences and it's theirs if they choose to just show up and take ownership.

[Tuscan]

Oops , today’s press release

 

 

 

Morning all,

Please find below/attached a revised version of the earlier release – David Hagg is the Chair of the South West Regional Advisory Board (not South West & Wales as previously stated).

Best wishes,

Fran

 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Tuscan said:

Oops , today’s press release

 

 

 

Morning all,

Please find below/attached a revised version of the earlier release – David Hagg is the Chair of the South West Regional Advisory Board (not South West & Wales as previously stated).

Best wishes,

Fran

 

I'm not sure that C&RT have ever heard of the RFT philosophy.

 

Get it 'Right First Time' is a far more cost effective way of doing things than having to go back and do them again.

[Tanglewood]

14 hours ago, mayalld said:

And can tell you what a fronted adverbial is no doubt!

Undoubtedly he can !! (but I knew anyway)

[Guest]

Nice new signs are appearing even in the far North.....spotted today.

 

 

[Tanglewood]

And it looks like there is nice picture of the barrage in the small sign to the right, also resplendent in CRT Blue.