BSS Rant

[rusty69]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There are no 'requirements' (that have to be complied with) for sea-going boats regards gas systems

There is on ours. The Mrs gets very upset.

Its a requirement that gas must not run out half way through cooking.

Under no circumstances should we not have a spare bottle. 

Should the worse happen, a new bottle should be located and connected within 2 minutes. 

[Momac]

2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

There is on ours. The Mrs gets very upset.

Its a requirement that gas must not run out half way through cooking.

Under no circumstances should we not have a spare bottle. 

Should the worse happen, a new bottle should be located and connected within 2 minutes. 

We have those exact  requirements too.

 

 

[alan_fincher]

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Everyone should have a spare canary too, in case the first one dies. 

 

How do you know which canary is correctly calibrated, though?

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

How do you know which canary is correctly calibrated, though?

 

They are ALL calibrated correctly according to the manufacturer...

[Rickent]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Would you mind defining 'safe' please? Because in a lot of circumstances it is a matter of opinion. 

Many thanks.

You are right Mike "safe" or not "safe" is a matter of opinion and on that basis I can't define how safe the OP's gas was or is but unfortunately the only opinion that matters is the opinion of the inspector doing the test and if he says not safe then the only option (apart from getting another Bss man) is to bring it to a safe condition .

[WotEver]

11 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Everyone should have a spare canary too, in case the first one dies. 

Or is out of calibration. 

But what if both canaries are miscalibrated?

[larryjc]

Peeps seem to havemissed my point - I am not complaining about the issues raised over my gas system - they were all valid.  My point is that the BSS is pedantic to  a high degree. Whether  this is over kill is another issue.   BUT sailing vessels are not required to do anything at all and they live in a similar environment, arguably far more dangerous.  It just seems crazy.

[WotEver]

Just now, larryjc said:

Peeps seem to havemissed my point - I am not complaining about the issues raised over my gas system - they were all valid.  My point is that the BSS is pedantic to  a high degree. Whether  this is over kill is another issue.   BUT sailing vessels are not required to do anything at all and they live in a similar environment, arguably far more dangerous.  It just seems crazy.

I would argue not that the inland waterways rules are excessive but that lumpy boat rules are non-existent. How (and if) that should be addressed I don’t know. 

[larryjc]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

I would argue not that the inland waterways rules are excessive but that lumpy boat rules are non-existent. How (and if) that should be addressed I don’t know. 

Agreed but having looked at the BSS requirements they seem to be pedantic to a high degree while at the same time allowing the examiner to make his own subjective assessments which is not how to lay down a set of standards.

[Rickent]

I think the key thing here is "common sense" . If you have an inspector who has it, you will be ok. If you get someone who is "by the book" then problems start to arise.

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, larryjc said:

Agreed but having looked at the BSS requirements they seem to be pedantic to a high degree while at the same time allowing the examiner to make his own subjective assessments which is not how to lay down a set of standards.

You’ve said this more than once but I can’t think of any of the BSS regs that fall into the category you describe. Can you give a specific example?

[Momac]

21 minutes ago, larryjc said:

.   BUT sailing vessels are not required to do anything at all and they live in a similar environment, arguably far more dangerous.  It just seems crazy.

Yes. It is absolutely crazy that boats living on the coast do not need a BSS certificate . 

 

[Murflynn]

6 minutes ago, WotEver said:

You’ve said this more than once but I can’t think of any of the BSS regs that fall into the category you describe. Can you give a specific example?

exactly.

I have fitted out 3 boats whilst keeping the BSS requirements uppermost in my mind, and have never felt there was any scope for an inspector to make subjective judgments. ...... anyone who thinks differently needs to get on with fixing the questionable areas so there is no doubt. .......  for a sewer tube built to modern standards that should not be a problem.

OP seems to be an angry young (?) man - one minute the regulations are pedantic, next minute they are inadequately specified (allowing scope for subjective judgments) and at the end of the day the rules are too difficult to read and comprehend.   ...............  that doesn't seem to be consistent with the claim that he was involved in checking boats for Transat safety ........  and by the way, if there were no written rules then how did he manage to check safety without m,aking subjective judgments.    

[MtB]

There are plenty of trivial requirements in BSS that have negligible effect on safety. 

As an example, the requirement for a label on the gas bottle locker. Has there ever been a boat fire that caused death or injury because nobody could find the gas bottle locker?

I hold that the requirement for a label on the gas locker has no impact on the death rate from boat accidents and could safely be dropped.

There are other examples. 

[Sir Nibble]

In my experience bss inspectors have zero interest in making any judgement as to what is safe or unsafe, just a check on what is or is not in compliance with the written standards.

[Momac]

39 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I hold that the requirement for a label on the gas locker has no impact on the death rate from boat accidents and could safely be dropped.

 

 

Shut off valve locations have to be marked . For the benefit of fire fighters or for anyone not otherwise familiar with the boat. 

Doesn't seem unreasonable  to me.

Edited March 26, 2018 by MartynG
.

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Doesn't seem unreasonable  to me.

 

Its not 'unreasonable', but 'reasonableness' is not the test is it?

The test is whether it renders the boat a risk to passers by or other boats. 

And I hold a missing label does not. Firefighters won't pish about looking for shut off valves or lables, they'll find the gas bottles in a flash and get them off the boat.

[Jess--]

51 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

There are plenty of trivial requirements in BSS that have negligible effect on safety. 

As an example, the requirement for a label on the gas bottle locker. Has there ever been a boat fire that caused death or injury because nobody could find the gas bottle locker?

I hold that the requirement for a label on the gas locker has no impact on the death rate from boat accidents and could safely be dropped.

There are other examples. 

I'm pretty sure that the gas locker is unmarked on my boat, however the main isolation valve is clearly marked.

from memory the valve on the bottle is acceptable as an isolation valve and if the gas system is set up this way it would have to be labelled 

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

I'm pretty sure that the gas locker is unmarked on my boat, however the main isolation valve is clearly marked.

from memory the valve on the bottle is acceptable as an isolation valve and if the gas system is set up this way it would have to be labelled 

 

We are not quibbling about the existence of the requirement, but about it's practical value. 

Yes it makes sense to label isolation valves but does labelling them actually reduce the accident rate? I suspect not. 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman
Spelling

[WotEver]

56 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

In my experience bss inspectors have zero interest in making any judgement as to what is safe or unsafe, just a check on what is or is not in compliance with the written standards.

^^^^^ This. 

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Sir Nibble said:

In my experience bss inspectors have zero interest in making any judgement as to what is safe or unsafe, just a check on what is or is not in compliance with the written standards.

 

But judgement IS demanded in various circumstances. The 'condition' of gas flexible hoses for example. How much cracking or perishing is allowed?

None probably, but what counts as 'perished'? All of it? 0.1mm of it? I bet inspectors are expected to make a judgement.

How far away from the gas isolation valve might the label be? 

Are those pipe clips 'secure enough'?

 

[haggis]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

And I hold a missing label does not. Firefighters won't pish about looking for shut off valves or lables, they'll find the gas bottles in a flash and get them off the boat.

Ah, so a firefighter will "in a flash" know where the gas bottles are? They could be in the bows in one of two lockers on some boats, or on the stern, again in one of two lockers. . Anything which reduces the delay in the firefighter getting at the gas bottles reduces, in my opinion, the risk of them blowing up and risking near by boats not to mention endangering life. 

On some boats at the bows there is a water tank right at the front then a separate locker containing gas bottles and the two might be separated by  a cratch. On semi trads and some cruiser sterns the gas bottles could be in a locker but which one? Many boats have two. 

I have no problem with a label saying where the gas bottles are

haggis

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, haggis said:

Ah, so a firefighter will "in a flash" know where the gas bottles are? They could be in the bows in one of two lockers on some boats, or on the stern, again in one of two lockers. . Anything which reduces the delay in the firefighter getting at the gas bottles reduces, in my opinion, the risk of them blowing up and risking near by boats not to mention endangering life. 

On some boats at the bows there is a water tank right at the front then a separate locker containing gas bottles and the two might be separated by  a cratch. On semi trads and some cruiser sterns the gas bottles could be in a locker but which one? Many boats have two. 

I have no problem with a label saying where the gas bottles are

haggis

 

Missing my point by a country mile.

I have no problem with having the labels but do they genuinely save lives? I doubt it.

[haggis]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I have no problem with having the labels but do they genuinely save lives? I doubt it.

Who knows? but if the firefighter is able to locate and deal with the cylinders quickly it might prevent and explosion which could kill anyone standing near.  I understood that this is the reason for the labels , to save firefighters spending time trying to locate the gas bottles. 

Is a country mile longer or shorter than a town one? 

haggis

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, haggis said:

Who knows? but if the firefighter is able to locate and deal with the cylinders quickly it might prevent and explosion which could kill anyone standing near.  I understood that this is the reason for the labels , to save firefighters spending time trying to locate the gas bottles. 

Is a country mile longer or shorter than a town one? 

haggis

 

I think its much longer!

But honestly, can you imagine a firefighter dashing around a boat looking for the gas bottles and NOT looking inside each locker he finds not bearing a label saying 'Gas Isolation Valve Below'? 

Besides, your argument is fundamantally flawed as gas bottle lockers do not have to be labelled, only the isolation valve location which can be somewhere else.