generater

[Bricksh]

16 hours ago, blake2016 said:

all electric items are off untill we moor up,then i switch the inverter on say about 15.00 hrs.

All 240V items will be off if you have the inverter turned off, but when you turn it back on then anything that was on in the marina will come on again. I mentioned the immersion because unless you run your engine in the marina or have another way of heating the water it is something easy to forget.

I agree with the others its most likely you have knackered batteries but worth a check first that everything is off.

[ditchcrawler]

17 hours ago, blake2016 said:

Ref my battries i had them checked about a month ago all in good condition, thats what i cannot get my head around,when we go out in the summer months for the longer journeys there are no problems crusing for about 7 hours a day then stopping over a night or two every thing is fine,its just when we leave the marina  say about 10.am sail up the cut for about 2 miles stop over night the inverter alarm sounds about 5 am then i have to switch the inverter off and wait untill about 8am to start the engine to charge the battries,thanks all for the input.

Maybe your charger isn't charging. Do you have any instruments on the boat at all, even a cigarette plug volt meter is better than nothing

[Alan de Enfield]

18 hours ago, blake2016 said:

Ref my battries i had them checked about a month ago all in good condition, thats what i cannot get my head around,when we go out in the summer months for the longer journeys there are no problems crusing for about 7 hours a day then stopping over a night or two every thing is fine,its just when we leave the marina  say about 10.am sail up the cut for about 2 miles stop over night the inverter alarm sounds about 5 am then i have to switch the inverter off and wait untill about 8am to start the engine to charge the battries,thanks all for the input.

Ok - Simply put :

If you cruise for 7 hours, the batteries are charged enough to last overnight.

If you cruise for 2 miles (half an hour ?) then the batteries are not charged enough to last overnight

On overnight stops after short runs you are taking out more than you are putting in.

You use more electricity at this time of the year compared to Summer - dark nights, longer time with the lights on etc.

If you cruise for half an hour, leave the engine running for another 6 hours when you arrive and see of if the batteries manage overnight.

(that doesn't mean you don not have to do an electrical audit - if you need help to do it, just ask)

[Phil Ambrose]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Ok - Simply put :

If you cruise for 7 hours, the batteries are charged enough to last overnight.

If you cruise for 2 miles (half an hour ?) then the batteries are not charged enough to last overnight

On overnight stops after short runs you are taking out more than you are putting in.

You use more electricity at this time of the year compared to Summer - dark nights, longer time with the lights on etc.

If you cruise for half an hour, leave the engine running for another 6 hours when you arrive and see of if the batteries manage overnight.

(that doesn't mean you don not have to do an electrical audit - if you need help to do it, just ask)

It would seem that the batteries are leaving the marina pretty much full discharged which would suggest the battery charger the OP is using in the marina is not working or is a cheapo automotive one which is not up to the job.

Phil 

[Alan de Enfield]

31 minutes ago, Phil Ambrose said:

It would seem that the batteries are leaving the marina pretty much full discharged which would suggest the battery charger the OP is using in the marina is not working or is a cheapo automotive one which is not up to the job.

Phil 

Agreed - could this be the problem ?

"i have a sterling alternator to battery charger on board to which trickle feeds the battries whilst on shore line"

Edited January 29, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

54 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Agreed - could this be the problem ?

"i have a sterling alternator to battery charger on board to which trickle feeds the battries whilst on shore line"

Alan where did you read that quote, I have looked through the thread three times and have yet to see it.

If it came from the OP then things are even worse than I suspected because (to be clear for the OP) an alternator to battery charger will NOT do any sort of battery charging with the engine turned off. Maybe he has a Sterling CHARGER that will do as that quote claimed but it shows a high degree of ignorance in respect of batteries, charging and charging equipment. The topic shows similar in respect of the overarching need for decent battery monitoring.

 

Blake 2016 - please tell us what charging equipment you have and use plus what battery monitoring equipment you already have. I would appreciate and answer to my question about how your batteries were tested, see * below.  Unless you take the bull by the horns and take on board what Alan, Nicknorman, myself, Wotever etc. have said you WILL suffer endless battery problems and no small expense. So power audit, answer questions, get answers & solve the problem.

* About 10 years or so ago a fellow moorer in the marina sought em out to ask about electrical problems. He assured me his batteries were in good condition because the marina had very recently tested them and told him so. The symptoms shouted battery problem to me but the boater was not convinced. Eventually he agreed to borrow my hydrometer and test his domestic bank. One glance at the readings showed he had two faulty (shorting) cells despite what the marina battery "test" had told him. After close questioning it turned out the marina had just put a voltmeter across the battery bank - that is no way to test batteries and other methods readily available need instruments matched to battery capacity. most are designed for 35/40Ah car batteries not 110Ah domestic batteries. Hence my questioning how your batteries were tested.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Alan where did you read that quote, I have looked through the thread three times and have yet to see it.

OPs post #1 - last line.

[frahkn]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Alan where did you read that quote, I have looked through the thread three times and have yet to see it.

If it came from the OP then things are even worse than I suspected because (to be clear for the OP) an alternator to battery charger will NOT do any sort of battery charging with the engine turned off. Maybe he has a Sterling CHARGER that will do as that quote claimed but it shows a high degree of ignorance in respect of batteries, charging and charging equipment. The topic shows similar in respect of the overarching need for decent battery monitoring.

 

 

I don't want to hijack this thread but can I ask a related question?

I have a Beta 43 with the usual 2 alternators, a Stirling battery management system and a Mastervolt 12/2500 combi.

I had always thought that this would charge the domestic batteries and the starter battery when on shore power. However I have been told that this would be an unusual arrangement and that normally this arrangement only charges the domestic bank via shore power. The starter must rely solely on the alternator. Is this generally correct?

Thanks.

 

[WotEver]

21 minutes ago, frahkn said:

I don't want to hijack this thread but can I ask a related question?

I have a Beta 43 with the usual 2 alternators, a Stirling battery management system and a Mastervolt 12/2500 combi.

I had always thought that this would charge the domestic batteries and the starter battery when on shore power. However I have been told that this would be an unusual arrangement and that normally this arrangement only charges the domestic bank via shore power. The starter must rely solely on the alternator. Is this generally correct?

Well, this IS a hijack but the OP seems to have gone quiet anyway. 

“Is this generally correct?”  No. 

The 12/2500 Mass Combi has charger outputs specifically for charging two banks (eg Domestic & Engine). So if it’s been wired up by anyone sensible it’ll be charging both. 

If you stick your multimeter across the engine battery with shore power connected and disconnected then you’ll soon know for sure. 

https://www.mastervolt.com/products/mass-combi-12v/mass-combi-12-2500-100-230-v/

4th item under ‘benefits’

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, frahkn said:

I don't want to hijack this thread but can I ask a related question?

I have a Beta 43 with the usual 2 alternators, a Stirling battery management system and a Mastervolt 12/2500 combi.

I had always thought that this would charge the domestic batteries and the starter battery when on shore power. However I have been told that this would be an unusual arrangement and that normally this arrangement only charges the domestic bank via shore power. The starter must rely solely on the alternator. Is this generally correct?

Thanks.

 

It is not uncommon - 

Any marine (proper) chargers will normally have multiple outlets - my Victron has 2, but remember the current is divided between the terminals if a battery is connected to both outlets. My Victron also has a dedicated starter battery charging output (5 amps) in addition to the 2 other outputs, and this 5a output is in addition to the 50 amp that the charger is rated at.

 

 

[frahkn]

OK, as there is already a divergence of views I will start a new thread on this, with the reason for the question, later today.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

OPs post #1 - last line.

Thanks Alan,  my eyes must be worse than I thought!

Well there we are then if that really describes what the OP thinks. Looks like he really does need new batteries, battery monitoring, land line charging, and some  study.

[Dave_P]

3 hours ago, Phil Ambrose said:

It would seem that the batteries are leaving the marina pretty much full discharged which would suggest the battery charger the OP is using in the marina is not working or is a cheapo automotive one which is not up to the job.

Phil 

I used a £40 Halfords charger so about 6 months a couple of years back and it didn't make much difference than when I use my 40a multi-stage Sterling.  I suspect the difference between the 2 mile cruise and the 7 hour cruise is that, with the latter, the OP is mooring up later in the day so the batteries survive the night.  I would also agree with others that the batteries are likely to be well down on their original capacity.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, frahkn said:

OK, as there is already a divergence of views I will start a new thread on this, with the reason for the question, later today.

Is there?  I only see two replies and both agree that the advice you were given is (probably) wrong. 

[Phil Ambrose]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is not uncommon - 

Any marine (proper) chargers will normally have multiple outlets - my Victron has 2, but remember the current is divided between the terminals if a battery is connected to both outlets. My Victron also has a dedicated starter battery charging output (5 amps) in addition to the 2 other outputs, and this 5a output is in addition to the 50 amp that the charger is rated at.

 

 

Help me out here, DaveP has just told me he has used a automotive charger with no ill effects which is contrary to what I have always been told . So which is better for a battery bank? A proper marine charger or a much cheaper automotive charger.

Phil 

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, frahkn said:

OK, as there is already a divergence of views I will start a new thread on this, with the reason for the question, later today.

The facts are that the Combi you mention does have a dedicated output for charging the engine battery. The only uncertainty is whether it is wired up on your particular boat. It is on my boat!

5 minutes ago, Phil Ambrose said:

Help me out here, DaveP has just told me he has used a automotive charger with no ill effects which is contrary to what I have always been told . So which is better for a battery bank? A proper marine charger or a much cheaper automotive charger.

Phil 

Depends on the automotive charger. Some are unregulated and will eventually (fairly quickly) "boil" a battery dry. Others are multi-stage chargers designed to be left on permanently, with a float mode just like a marine version. The latter will of course be fine.

Edited January 29, 2018 by nicknorman

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Phil Ambrose said:

Help me out here, DaveP has just told me he has used a automotive charger with no ill effects which is contrary to what I have always been told . So which is better for a battery bank? A proper marine charger or a much cheaper automotive charger.

Phil 

There are automotive chargers and there are automotive chargers.

I have a Halfords 6 amp charger that appears to have 'unrestricted' voltage - I use it for giving the batteries a 'good kicking'.

Once the batteries are charged (current drops to 1% of capacity) the voltage just keeps going up and up - last time I disconnected it at 15.9 volts as the batteries started to sound like a kettle on the boil.

You are not going to get proper 'staged' charging and the ability to leave it permanently connected with a cheapo - what price / specification was DaveP's charger ?

[Phil Ambrose]

A 40amp Halfords 

[nicknorman]

41 minutes ago, Phil Ambrose said:

A 40amp Halfords 

Link, or full model name/number?

Edited January 29, 2018 by nicknorman

[MtB]

On 29/01/2018 at 12:45, Phil Ambrose said:

A 40amp Halfords 

 

Odd. It said a 40 quid Halfords when I read it!

[Phil Ambrose]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Odd. It said a 40 quid Halfords when I read it!

Oops me having a senior moment, I guess I sort of expected a charger to be described by capacity not price (which tells you nothing)

Phil 

[ditchcrawler]

32 minutes ago, Phil Ambrose said:

Help me out here, DaveP has just told me he has used a automotive charger with no ill effects which is contrary to what I have always been told . So which is better for a battery bank? A proper marine charger or a much cheaper automotive charger.

Phil 

It rather depends if you just connect it, switch it on and just leave it, or if you monitor the batteries and act accordingly 

[MtB]

On 29/01/2018 at 13:05, Phil Ambrose said:

Oops me having a senior moment, I guess I sort of expected a charger to be described by capacity not price (which tells you nothing)

Phil 

 

I disagree. A price that low tells us it will be a basic el-cheapo unregulated charger, surely. 

[Dave_P]

56 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The facts are that the Combi you mention does have a dedicated output for charging the engine battery. The only uncertainty is whether it is wired up on your particular boat. It is on my boat!

Depends on the automotive charger. Some are unregulated and will eventually (fairly quickly) "boil" a battery dry. Others are multi-stage chargers designed to be left on permanently, with a float mode just like a marine version. The latter will of course be fine.

It was this one: http://www.halfords.com/workshop-tools/garage-equipment/battery-chargers-jump-starters/halfords-automatic-battery-charger-vehicles-up-to-2-0l

Currently £35 charges at 12A and has an automatic float stage.  Obviously it takes a while to charge fully, but when on shoreline, you're plugged in permanently, it's enough.

 

For the truly long term impact, I'm not sure.  I got my 'proper' charger fixed and am using that again now.

Perhaps it did damage my batteries in some way, but I didn't detect any noticable change.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Dave_P

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

It was this one: http://www.halfords.com/workshop-tools/garage-equipment/battery-chargers-jump-starters/halfords-automatic-battery-charger-vehicles-up-to-2-0l

Currently £35 charges at 12A and has an automatic float stage.  Obviously it takes a while to charge fully, but when on shoreline, you're plugged in permanently, it's enough.

So it is not a fit-&-forget charger such as a Victron, Mastervolt, Stirling etc, but, at the end of the day I would not expect anything else from a £40 charger.

"Not suitable for vehicles with START/STOP technology, or for long-term connection".