Machpoint005 Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 18 minutes ago, mross said: >> The difference between technologists and lay people is that we require evidence, and not anecdote.<< ...and we can tell the difference between the two! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
system 4-50 Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 There definitely are strata in air. Why only the other day I found a small dinosaur bone floating near the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Bob Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 38 minutes ago, mark99 said: Can the people continually stating the fans are completely useless explain in simple language why the air shown moving in the video above <the Vulcan example> does not help whatsoever in gaining a more more even temperature to aid comfort? If they did that then they wouldnt be able to sustain two separate 400 post threads. Whilst Mark, it may be clear to you and me, and the few others - given the video and 2 papers (discussed here and on the other thread), it is very difficult to change the minds of those who refuse to accept facts. I think enough information has been presented that does support the benefit of the fans, but other than the (enjoyable) debate between myself and Mross, there have been very few 'serious' comments on the efficacy of the data. There certainly seems to be a lack of engineers or scientiests to discuss the data so instead it is just black or white comments of what seems like 'lay people' which dont really help the discussion. What would really help here is an engineer with fluid dynamics experience who can talk about heat dispersion. I think you are right Marc in that we dont understand the power of a fan that is actually needed to improve thermal comfort. We certainly dont need a fast 12v fan - as that will only make us feel like we are in a draught. You actually only need a small flow to disturb the stratification (or whatever we call it!!) and it should improve thermal comfort. Perhaps the ecofan is good enough. I keep saying it but some of us are more sensitive to heat so a small amount of air movement might be fine. It is intersting that the Waterloo paper claims the Eco fan 800 saves 15% fuel. I have not yet seen any argument that would say that was wrong - although was the paper published on April 1st? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted November 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 7 minutes ago, Dr Bob said: If they did that then they wouldnt be able to sustain two separate 400 post threads. Whilst Mark, it may be clear to you and me, and the few others - given the video and 2 papers (discussed here and on the other thread), it is very difficult to change the minds of those who refuse to accept facts. I think enough information has been presented that does support the benefit of the fans, but other than the (enjoyable) debate between myself and Mross, there have been very few 'serious' comments on the efficacy of the data. There certainly seems to be a lack of engineers or scientiests to discuss the data so instead it is just black or white comments of what seems like 'lay people' which dont really help the discussion. What would really help here is an engineer with fluid dynamics experience who can talk about heat dispersion. I think you are right Marc in that we dont understand the power of a fan that is actually needed to improve thermal comfort. We certainly dont need a fast 12v fan - as that will only make us feel like we are in a draught. You actually only need a small flow to disturb the stratification (or whatever we call it!!) and it should improve thermal comfort. Perhaps the ecofan is good enough. I keep saying it but some of us are more sensitive to heat so a small amount of air movement might be fine. It is intersting that the Waterloo paper claims the Eco fan 800 saves 15% fuel. I have not yet seen any argument that would say that was wrong - although was the paper published on April 1st? Stop it Bob Stop it my side are splitting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mross Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 7 minutes ago, Dr Bob said: it is very difficult to change the minds of those who refuse to accept facts But you have no facts, only contentions. And I don't either. But the companies who flog these fans should be required to produce some evidence to back up their claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark99 Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 Like I said. The only thing in debate is the magnitude of the effect. I quantified the volume moved not used a ridiculous analogy to try ridicule the concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mross Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 11 minutes ago, mrsmelly said: I think you are right Marc in that we dont understand the power of a fan that is actually needed to improve thermal comfort. This sounds like the argument creationists use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark99 Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 11 minutes ago, mrsmelly said: Stop it Bob Stop it my side are splitting When you finished laughing the challenge is still there. Explain why moving 3m3 per min does not help mixing the air temp and removing/reducing temp gradient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 Just think, if a butterfly effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mross Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 It may help, but I think, based on my experience as an engineer, that the effect is too small to consider. If you can show me how this figure of 120 cubic feet per minute is measured, I might reconsider. To me the silence of these fans is evidence that they are merely cosmetic. You can't shift air mechanically without making noise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark99 Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 The figures were off the manuf blurb. Allowed for optimistic manuf blurb so divided by three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mross Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 Why three? Without evidence you could divide by seven, or fourteen, or a thousand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Bob Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, mross said: It may help, but I think, based on my experience as an engineer, that the effect is too small to consider. If you can show me how this figure of 120 cubic feet per minute is measured, I might reconsider. To me the silence of these fans is evidence that they are merely cosmetic. You can't shift air mechanically without making noise. My fan is sold with a quote of 265 CFM flow and makes a big deal out of it. Surely they cant be lying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mross Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 But where is this airflow measured? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark99 Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 http://www.ecofan.co.uk/which-wood-stove-ecofan.html Example airflows blurb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Bob Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 Just saw Bluestringpudding's essential oil post on the other thread. Slam dunk. 4-0. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark99 Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 (edited) 53 minutes ago, mross said: But where is this airflow measured? You would have to consult AMCA 230 - 12 test standard to find out I guess. I agree with Bob - any temp diff between 0.5 and 2 degrees will be felt. Whether that's an absolute gain or whether it's across a temp gradient you sit in. These devices are not wonder solutions. I would not have one in a large house room, but in the confines of a narrowboat saloon I contend they help with even-ing out the temp in front of the fan esp in the vertical plane. They, for me, fetch warm air behind the stove and push it out front and help even out the temp zone I sit within. Edited November 20, 2017 by mark99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted November 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 hour ago, mark99 said: When you finished laughing the challenge is still there. Explain why moving 3m3 per min does not help mixing the air temp and removing/reducing temp gradient. Just been next door to the bro in laws boat, he although of sound mind and body like you actualy believes his fan does something, bless his cotton socks He duly brought piece of cotton and dangled it in front of said fan and at a distance of about three inches it actualy moved ( a very little ) six inches away it had stopped moving, so had the air. Watch my lips THEY DONT WORK. Snake oil, chocolate fireguards, anti ageing cream etc etc. They do however look good and its a medicaly proven fact after some proper research over the years that the placebo effect is real, hence some people actualy believe their eco fan works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cereal tiller Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 12 minutes ago, mrsmelly said: Just been next door to the bro in laws boat, he although of sound mind and body like you actualy believes his fan does something, bless his cotton socks He duly brought piece of cotton and dangled it in front of said fan and at a distance of about three inches it actualy moved ( a very little ) six inches away it had stopped moving, so had the air. Watch my lips THEY DONT WORK. Snake oil, chocolate fireguards, anti ageing cream etc etc. They do however look good and its a medicaly proven fact after some proper research over the years that the placebo effect is real, hence some people actualy believe their eco fan works. Not a proper Scientific test! the Cotton should have been wet and it's Humidity measured before and after the Laughter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 23 minutes ago, mrsmelly said: Just been next door to the bro in laws boat, he although of sound mind and body like you actualy believes his fan does something, bless his cotton socks He duly brought piece of cotton and dangled it in front of said fan and at a distance of about three inches it actualy moved ( a very little ) six inches away it had stopped moving, so had the air. Watch my lips THEY DONT WORK. Snake oil, chocolate fireguards, anti ageing cream etc etc. They do however look good and its a medicaly proven fact after some proper research over the years that the placebo effect is real, hence some people actualy believe their eco fan works. But both of mine stand on my Dickinson Stove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted November 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said: But both of mine stand on my Dickinson Stove. Stop it ahhhhh Stop it I'm wettin myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mross Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 Am ecofan is only good at moving money from punters to hawksters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
system 4-50 Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 If I had an Ecofan then I would know for certain that it didn't work but I would still keep it as I could mentally allow for the degree of non-workingness so I would not send it back, and I would have it around to reinforce my observations that it didn't work. (PS I might get a 2nd one to corroborate the defects of the first one.) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bod Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 If 2 peltier units were fitted to an ecofan, could the extra unit run a remote fan? Bod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted November 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Bod said: If 2 peltier units were fitted to an ecofan, could the extra unit run a remote fan? Bod Funnily enough experiments by the military especialy in the USA have been ongoing for many years re this matter. The military needed larger helicopters to move large equipment and many personel and no internal combustion type engines in build were powerful enough for the job. The problem was solved by the top brains from NASA and the Chinook helicopter was born. Powered by not one but two eco fans with a large propeller at each end of the aircraft. Sat at each end under the eco fan is a crew member with a lighted candle producing the required heat source. Early problems were caused by using candles too large for the job and small household candles were eventualy found best for the job otherwise the helicopters used to climb too high and orbit the earth. Edited November 20, 2017 by mrsmelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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