Windows 10 is actually a virus, discuss

[MtB]

On 03/12/2017 at 00:12, MJG said:

How deep are your pockets? If very deep then Apple is the way to go.

Linux is great if you don't mind tweaking and fiddling about to get things like printers, scanners and external drives working.

If you want a compromise between affordability of Linux (free) and the expense of usability with the minimal hassle of Apple (expensive) then the choice is obvious.

Windows.

 

I suspect the time wasted and grief of Making Things Work is ten times worse with Linux, so Apple it is. The cost is paid for in time saved.

[frahkn]

10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I suspect the time wasted and grief of Making Things Work is ten times worse with Linux, so Apple it is. The cost is paid for in time saved.

i had all the computing power I needed at work, and someone to sort it out if it went wrong.

As soon as I retired I replaced my Dell, running windows, with an Apple mac book pro (I had to beat myself over the head at the price) and have been completely satisfied since.

Numbers is not as powerful as excel but it is easy to learn and good enough for my purposes. Pages is more or less the same as word as far as I can see (only problem is I can't ask my secretary for help when I get stuck).

If cost is not an insurmountable problem, I would advise you to go the Apple route.

[rusty69]

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I have wasted away whole weekends many times over making Windows machine work again. 

I too have more or less decide to jump ship, but which way to jump? Linux or Apple? I'm tending towards the probably less steep but still massive learning curve of Apple at the moment.

Give Linux mint a trial run. Smallish download and run from a usb stick. 

I installed it a few days back after years running Lubuntu. 

If you don't like it, delete it, simples

[rowland al]

9 hours ago, MJG said:

How deep are your pockets? If very deep then Apple is the way to go.

Linux is great if you don't mind tweaking and fiddling about to get things like printers, scanners and external drives working.

If you want a compromise between affordability of Linux (free) and the expense of usability with the minimal hassle of Apple (expensive) then the choice is obvious.

Windows.

I used Linux (Ubuntu) for a year or so. It suited all my needs and I didn't have any issues plugging in a printer/scanner or external hard drive. They just plugged and played. The great thing about Ubunu is that it will run faster than Windows on older slower PC's and less prone to viruses. How long ago did you try it?

It's just that I've just found that my iPad does everything I need now. It's just there when I need it and don't have to wait for it to boot it up.  

I wouldn't use Windows if you paid me too. Time is far too precious to waste it on pandering to Microsoft's marketing tactics.  Apple Mac's, yes very good (especially if you are creative artistically) but as you say, quite pricey.

[rowland al]

One other thing. You can (well at least could) install Ubuntu on a Windows PC as dual boot. So you can try it out without compromising your Windows installation. If you don't get on with it, you can uninstall it 

You used to be able to run Ubuntu directly from a DVD too. I found this useful once when trying to access files on a hard drive where Windows was broken.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, rowland al said:

I used Linux (Ubuntu) for a year or so. It suited all my needs and I didn't have any issues plugging in a printer/scanner or external hard drive. They just plugged and played. The great thing about Ubunu is that it will run faster than Windows on older slower PC's and less prone to viruses. How long ago did you try it?

It's just that I've just found that my iPad does everything I need now. It's just there when I need it and don't have to wait for it to boot it up.  

I wouldn't use Windows if you paid me too. Time is far too precious to waste it on pandering to Microsoft's marketing tactics.  Apple Mac's, yes very good (especially if you are creative artistically) but as you say, quite pricey.

I go through this every time i mention I dont get on with Linux. I have it installed on a spare machine now as it happens. Installing things like video drivers is also not as "plug and play' as some would have is believe, in fact for my Dell it was a complete PITA. When I boot that machine into Windows it worked straightway.

If Linux was that good, given it is free everybody would buy a bare bones pc and be using it. The fact is they aren't and it' not just down to marketing.

[Jess--]

19 hours ago, Keeping Up said:

I assume that the firewall and the Windows Defender running on the Host machine, will protect the Virtual machine too?

A virtual machine should be treated exactly as if it is a real machine, It will connect directly to the internet and there is nothing the host machine can do to protect the virtual machine.

 

[MtB]

Ok once I've installed Linux Mint, how do I...

1) maintain and update my stack of websites written in FrontPageP2000 ?

2) Print business forms designed in PagePlus 5?

3) Get my label printer to work?

4) Get my document scanner to work?

5) Connect to my cloud based files living on the service provided by sync.com?

[rowland al]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Ok once I've installed Linux Mint, how do I...

1) maintain and update my stack of websites written in FrontPageP2000 ?

2) Print business forms designed in PagePlus 5?

3) Get my label printer to work?

4) Get my document scanner to work?

5) Connect to my cloud based files living on the service provided by sync.com?

This is the problem. Those who have invested so much time, effort and money into a company who has tried to ring fence them over the years will be reluctant to change and admit they might have got sucked in. Trust me, I know from my experience with Microsoft and Apple. 

The sad truth is that we as consumers (mugs) are being inconvenienced and ripped off by marketing battles. 

As regards printer/scanner problems, maybe Linux doesn't provide drivers for the more obscure or old devices. I agree that sadly most devce manufacturers don't support Linux as well as Windows. That may be a down side but you can try it out for free!

[MtB]

On 03/12/2017 at 10:53, rowland al said:

This is the problem. Those who have invested so much time, effort and money into a company who has tried to ring fence them over the years will be reluctant to change and admit they might have got sucked in. Trust me, I know from my experience with Microsoft and Apple. 

The sad truth is that we as consumers (mugs) are being inconvenienced and ripped off by marketing battles. 

As regards printer/scanner problems, maybe Linux doesn't provide drivers for the more obscure or old devices. I agree that sadly most devce manufacturers don't support Linux as well as Windows. That may be a down side but you can try it out for free!

 

But it's NOT free at all is it? 

I'm likely to spend a whole weekend trying to get it to work just like with Windows once in a while. The cost is in time probably wasted rather than money. 

The main thing worrying me is what tools Linus Mint has for website design, assuming it won't load FrontPage 2000. 

[MtB]

And as MJG points out, if it is that good and free, why is it not more widely adopted? The answer is I suspect, is there are NO tools for website design and a lot of other things Windows made easy. Or someone would have told me there is!

[Tony Brooks]

20 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Ok once I've installed Linux Mint, how do I...

1) maintain and update my stack of websites written in FrontPageP2000 ?

2) Print business forms designed in PagePlus 5?

3) Get my label printer to work?

4) Get my document scanner to work?

5) Connect to my cloud based files living on the service provided by sync.com?

1. I have NVU for windows running under wine, Libra writer seems to cope with HTML files so unless you have those modern database driven websites it should do. Kompozer a sightly updated NVU for Linux should work. However if you are using the inbuilt FTP file transfer protocol in Frontpage then you will have to use a web browser to do the FTP uploads.

Pageplus may run under Wine otherwise what formats can you export them in. These days a word processor may well import and manipulate them. I found Pageplusses one time main competitor (GSP) progtrams work well under Wine.

3. I agree setting up printers can be a bit tedious and your label printer may not be supported but since I discovered the web interface for setting up the CUPS printer system (surprisingly that is maintained by Macintosh and I suspect is the Mac printing system) it has got a lot easier. I had to buy new printers when we went from W3.1 to W97/98 so its not only Linux that does not support old printers.

4. Again I had to ditch my Umax scanner when I got XP but my HP 3 in one scans just fine with Simple Scan which comes in the Mint repository so is easy to instally with Program manager.

5. I would have thought that the synch.com servers run on Linux/Unix and they would be able to tell you how to do it but I would expect any modern FTP or Web browser has the necessary functionality.

Mike

When you are in Reading you are welcome to give me a ring and you can happily have a play with my laptop and desktop running Mint. If you bring your Pageplus discs we can try installing it on Wine.

[MtB]

On 03/12/2017 at 11:15, Tony Brooks said:

1. I have NVU for windows running under wine, Libra writer seems to cope with HTML files so unless you have those modern database driven websites it should do. Kompozer a sightly updated NVU for Linux should work. However if you are using the inbuilt FTP file transfer protocol in Frontpage then you will have to use a web browser to do the FTP uploads.

Pageplus may run under Wine otherwise what formats can you export them in. These days a word processor may well import and manipulate them. I found Pageplusses one time main competitor (GSP) progtrams work well under Wine.

3. I agree setting up printers can be a bit tedious and your label printer may not be supported but since I discovered the web interface for setting up the CUPS printer system (surprisingly that is maintained by Macintosh and I suspect is the Mac printing system) it has got a lot easier. I had to buy new printers when we went from W3.1 to W97/98 so its not only Linux that does not support old printers.

4. Again I had to ditch my Umax scanner when I got XP but my HP 3 in one scans just fine with Simple Scan which comes in the Mint repository so is easy to instally with Program manager.

5. I would have thought that the synch.com servers run on Linux/Unix and they would be able to tell you how to do it but I would expect any modern FTP or Web browser has the necessary functionality.

 

Thanks Tony this illustrates my concerns perfectly. Every single line of your answer shows just how much uncertainty there is in ditching Windows. I use these tools to earn my living and pay for my boats.

It's too important than to accept all that uncertainty. I can imagine the whole platform changeover taking days on end if it ever works which would cost me four figure sums in lost work this time of year. 

[reg]

32 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Thanks Tony this illustrates my concerns perfectly. Every single line of your answer shows just how much uncertainty there is in ditching Windows. I use these tools to earn my living and pay for my boats.

It's too important than to accept all that uncertainty. I can imagine the whole platform changeover taking days on end if it ever works which would cost me four figure sums in lost work this time of year. 

Then you have a business decision to make. I suspect many small businesses will have the same problem and concerns. It may well be that sticking with Windows is your answer, with Apple as a strong contender.

No reason why you can't play with Linux via the USB and slowly get use to it over a longer period if it doesn't stack up then junk it. 

The only driver problem I had was with a WiFi printer which strangely enough the solution was to install it in Windows first and then install it in Linux. Nothing is perfect and never will be, having said that I've had many driver problems with Windows in the past where the 'solution' created additional problems elsewhere. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by reg

[system 4-50]

After years supporting Windows systems and qualifying as an MCSE I finally threw my personal windows machines out of the pram and moved over to Apple Mac. Worth the expense? Definitely, despite losing the benefit of years of Windows expertise. There are a few irritations, particularly bring a window to the front but still having the top bar of a previous application active, but so far it has been much better. 

[Keeping Up]

58 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The main thing worrying me is what tools Linus Mint has for website design, assuming it won't load FrontPage 2000. 

That's my problem too. I want to load FrontPage 2000 and after yesterday installing a Virtual XP machine on my desktop I then discovered it wouldn't load FP. Some things I didn't want (such as Microsoft Publisher) it was happy to load but the Office suite which includes FP failed. So I've uninstalled the virtual machine again.

[Tony Brooks]

Mike

Immediately after I made my last post I installed Pageplus 9 under Wine, drew a  squiggle & printed it out. I then had to fetch my wife from church so it did not take a quarter of an hour. If Pageplus 9 works under WIne then there is every likelihood your version will work as well.

I too use my computer to earn my living but obviously not as heavily as you do so having lost a load of work because of Vista I "upgraded back to XP. I had no wish to move away from XP. It did everything I wanted and still will on my old machine as long as I kept my Internet Security suit up to date. What finally finished me was the list of older programs W10 would not run, the likelihood of no XP drivers being available for new equipment and me deciding MS was intent on moving to a pay by the year and all to be downloaded model with no reasonably priced outright sales of CD/DVDs.  I felt the time had come to invest a bit of time to make the change and Linux being free seems to fit the bill and do everything I want.

One of the XP service packs messed up the FTP part of FrontPage and as Word-processors plus an FTP client can easily handle layout with simple HTML I decided not having Frontpage was not a deal breaker. (Actually I am not sure it was not the change from W97/98 to XP that broke it).

If I had gone Mac then I would have had to buy and install new software so with Linux I only had to install, not buy. I note my brother in law who has used Mac for decades has problems with his web authoring package at each OS update, in fact I think he has stopped the updates. My son who also uses Mac for his music also has had problems with OS updates and will not update until he is sure there will be no issues, he is still on an old version of the OS.

All three systems have problems, advantages and disadvantages so its the individual's choice as to were the balance falls that is correct for them.  I think the major reasons Linux is not used more relate to MS behaving in a highly uncompetitive way so "forcing" the major computer manufacturers to install Windows and those in the Linux community being so wedded to the command line they make Linux seem difficult. I can honestly say I do very little with the command line (that's like the DOS box in Windows) but a little knowledge of such things helps to make the system work as you want.

One has to except that being community supported with comparatively few full time workers bugs etc may take a little longer to rectify in Linux but if that is a major consideration then a paid for system is the way to go.

Finally running any version of Linux from a USB drive. This will be slow and will probably only be a partial system. In many cases there will be few applications unless the computer has web access. for a true idea I think it needs to be properly installed and it will usually install itself as a duel boot system so you can run Windows or Linux at startup.

 

 

 

[rowland al]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And as MJG points out, if it is that good and free, why is it not more widely adopted? The answer is I suspect, is there are NO tools for website design and a lot of other things Windows made easy. Or someone would have told me there is!

Well as I am trying to point out, for the majority of those who are happy doing normal stuff, Ubuntu is great. Even a pad would probably do what you want if you are fed up with PC's.

For those with special requirements or locked into to working with Microsoft based servers and tools, it's not easy, I agree. Although I think there are plenty of generic web based designer tools out there. Also there are web development tools out there for Linux. Eclipse for example. Have a Google. 

If I was running a business I'd be very wary of locking myself into any single provider as effectively you could end up being held to ransom. 

Then again, if you have plenty of money and time to throw at it all, then I suppose it doesn't matter. Some people get forced out of it purely due to the expense 

I used to like Microsoft and developed C++, VB applications in Visual Studio. However that also became very expensive if you wanted to do anything serious. 

[reg]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Thanks Tony this illustrates my concerns perfectly.

To be honest your concerns are perfectly valid. In an attempt to answer your Frontpage requirements I Google a simple question

"Wysiwig for Linux" and came up with this

https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=222786

If you look through that thread it can be a bit intimidating to non Linux users. I think the thread perfectly illustrates the Linux culture as it currently works. After 6 months on Linux I don't find any of the threads answers intimidating or frightening but I can perfectly understand anyone, particularly a small business user, running a mile. 

I would suggest Mike that you could possibly slowly get use to the linux way if doing things after a while it all makes sense. Whether it makes sense as a business is another thing but fir personal computing needs there can be no harm in having a backup plan to Windows if the need ever arrives. 

Good luck with whatever you decide, appreciate there is no easy decision

[Tony Brooks]

15 minutes ago, rowland al said:

Well as I am trying to point out, for the majority of those who are happy doing normal stuff, Ubuntu is great. Even a pad would probably do what you want if you are fed up with PC's.

For those with special requirements or locked into to working with Microsoft based servers and tools, it's not easy, I agree. Although I think there are plenty of generic web based designer tools out there. Also there are web development tools out there for Linux. Eclipse for example. Have a Google. 

If I was running a business I'd be very wary of locking myself into any single provider as effectively you could end up being held to ransom. 

Then again, if you have plenty of money and time to throw at it all, then I suppose it doesn't matter. Some people get forced out of it purely due to the expense 

I used to like Microsoft and developed C++, VB applications in Visual Studio. However that also became very expensive if you wanted to do anything serious. 

As far as my own requirements are concerned I was amazed at just how easy it was once I got my head around Wine.

[rowland al]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

As far as my own requirements are concerned I was amazed at just how easy it was once I got my head around Wine.

But that's just a MS Windows emulator for Linux. You are still locked into their products like Frontpage.

I think the advice to have a play and a fall back plan with a Linux (Ubuntu) is very sound. 

In a way, the more you rely on higher layers the less control you have over future proofness. Linux is much closer to the machine, so if you can get your head around it, you have more control. Fortunately Ubuntu is very easy to install and use right out of the box. It comes with a Linux version of windows. I doubt the learning curve will that great for the average person, if you want to get into the nuts and bolts of command lines you can do later.

The problem is that so many companies who develop software are also locked into Microsoft. I think that is gradually changing now that IDE's (development environments) are being developed to produce code which will run on multiple platforms. (e.g Windows, Apple IOS, Linux, Android etc). 

[Tony Brooks]

42 minutes ago, rowland al said:

But that's just a MS Windows emulator for Linux. You are still locked into their products like Frontpage.

I think the advice to have a play and a fall back plan with a Linux (Ubuntu) is very sound. 

In a way, the more you rely on higher layers the less control you have over future proofness. Linux is much closer to the machine, so if you can get your head around it, you have more control. Fortunately Ubuntu is very easy to install and use right out of the box. It comes with a Linux version of windows. I doubt the learning curve will that great for the average person, if you want to get into the nuts and bolts of command lines you can do later.

The problem is that so many companies who develop software are also locked into Microsoft. I think that is gradually changing now that IDE's (development environments) are being developed to produce code which will run on multiple platforms. (e.g Windows, Apple IOS, Linux, Android etc). 

1. Ubuntu does not come with a Linux version of Windows. All modern Linux flavours use one of the Linux windowing and desk top systems that is is no way compatible with the MS product. I post this because the quote may cause people to think Ubuntu will run Windows programmes. it will not. Ubuntu will run Wine.

2. Guess what WINE stands for - "Wine Is Not an Emulator". Wine is a set of Linux routines that are accessed by Windows programs in the same way as they would access the APIs in Windows and those routines do as their windows equivalents would. Because it si not an emulator the Windows programs run at full speed and maybe faster than on a Windows machine.

3. If a Windows program that you use is working for you, does all you want it to and will run under Wine then you are no more locked into the program than you were under Windows. The problem comes when you need (not want) to upgrade the program. In fact I would argue that you are less locked in because I know some XP programs that will not work on W10 run happily under Wine. If I wanted to access those files under W10 I would have to update (buy) a new version of the program that may or may not run on my equipment. That is if an update is available and often they are not.

I agree jumping straight into Linux would be foolish, far better to dual boot the computer and see what Linux can do first.  There are probably hundreds of versions (actually distributions) of Linux but for beginners I would recommend Mint or Ubuntu - Mint is actually Ubuntu with a different desktop and windows manager that has been customised by the Mint team. There are different current version of Mint & Ubuntu depending upon what desktop and windows manager suits you best.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Tony Brooks

[rowland al]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

1. Ubuntu does not come with a Linux version of Windows. All modern Linux flavours use one of the Linux windowing and desk top systems that is is no way compatible with the MS product. I post this because the quote may cause people to think Ubuntu will run Windows programmes. it will not. Ubuntu will run Wine.

2. Guess what WINE stands for - "Wine Is Not an Emulator". Wine is a set of Linux routines that are accessed by Windows programs in the same way as they would access the APIs in Windows and those routines do as their windows equivalents would. Because it si not an emulator the Windows programs run at full speed and maybe faster than on a Windows machine.

3. If a Windows program that you use is working for you, does all you want it to and will run under Wine then you are no more locked into the program than you were under Windows. The problem comes when you need (not want) to upgrade the program. In fact I would argue that you are less locked in because I know some XP programs that will not work on W10 run happily under Wine. If I wanted to access those files under W10 I would have to update (buy) a new version of the program that may or may not run on my equipment. That is if an update is available and often they are not.

I agree jumping straight into Linux would be foolish, far better to dual boot the computer and see what Linux can do first.  There are probably hundreds of versions (actually distributions) of Linux but for beginners I would recommend Mint or Ubuntu - Mint is actually Ubuntu with a different desktop and windows manager that has been customised by the Mint team. There are different current version of Mint & Ubuntu depending upon what desktop and windows manager suits you best.

1. I put 'windows' in lower case for a reason, but you're right to clarify that (well unless you are using WINE). 

2. As I said, you are still reliant on MS products. WINE is not a processor emulator, but it is a layer which lets Windows run on Linux. 

3. It might work, but you are still locked into MS, which is really the main point I'm trying to make.

 

[MtB]

Going off at a tangent about using FP2000, I recently considered switching to WordPress as it is platform independent and used in a browser.

After spending a weekend trying to learn to work it I gave up and bought a few books about it. £40 and several dozen hours later I still couldn't get my newest website looking anything like how I wanted it (i.e. like all my others) so I gave up and went back to FP2000.  

[rowland al]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Going off at a tangent about using FP2000, I recently considered switching to WordPress as it is platform independent and used in a browser.

After spending a weekend trying to learn to work it I gave up and bought a few books about it. £40 and several dozen hours later I still couldn't get my newest website looking anything like how I wanted it (i.e. like all my others) so I gave up and went back to FP2000.  

It's called old age Mike! I have the same bloomin problem.

Actually, to be fair. It does seem as though companies make manuals more complicated than they need to be. This is usually due to the fact that some still let nerds write them, rather than use technical pubs people talk to nerds to filter out the crap.