Vintage engine guides for the uninitiated

[matty40s]

4 hours ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

Ok, so a compromise to be made here, noise wise I would assume the air cooled to be a lot louder, are air cooled engines after some hours of cruising found to be to loud by many users?

Pardon??

[MtB]

Ok, once you start getting properly into vintage engines you'll soon discover they vary widely. Such that the optimum number of vintage engines you'll need is n+1, where n is the number of vintage engines you own. 

N for me is currently 5

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[cuthound]

Surely to guarantee to be able to actally go boating with vintage engines,  through optimum number in n+n? 

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, LEO said:

 Listers are good but my experiences of them were they smoked badly......................................

They don't have to, if rebuilt to a good standard.

Here is the one in our "Flamingo", as it was, just back in the boat, after a full rebuild.
 

This engine desperately needed its rebuild, being we believe largely untouched since 1968, and was very smoky and throwing oil before it was fully stripped.  It now runs very clean - certainly a lot cleaner than many Gardners and Kelvins I have seen.

I think it is more about condition than the actual original make of the engine.

For the benefit of the OP, this is a 1960s air-cooled Lister HA2 of 22HP.  Max 1,800 RPM
 

 

[LEO]

32 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

They don't have to, if rebuilt to a good standard.

Here is the one in our "Flamingo", as it was, just back in the boat, after a full rebuild.
 

This engine desperately needed its rebuild, being we believe largely untouched since 1968, and was very smoky and throwing oil before it was fully stripped.  It now runs very clean - certainly a lot cleaner than many Gardners and Kelvins I have seen.

I think it is more about condition than the actual original make of the engine.

For the benefit of the OP, this is a 1960s air-cooled Lister HA2 of 22HP.  Max 1,800 RPM
 

 

Fair comment and I did say 'most', but after a rebuild I would hope it would be running well, But 'Listers' include many models and it's no fun sharing a lock with a smokey SR2 when the exhaust vents towards you. I think your engine ticking over should encourage Mick to ask the question should the engine room be lined or unlined? and answers the query about noise from air cooled engines........................sorry to read of your son's accident, hope he recovers quickly.

[stagedamager]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Ok, once you start getting properly into vintage engines you'll soon discover they vary widely. Such that the optimum number of vintage engines you'll need is n+1, where n is the number of vintage engines you own. 

N for me is currently 5

 

Only 5.....

You need more than n+1 more!!

 

[Mick in Bangkok]

13 hours ago, matty40s said:

18 hours ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

Ok, so a compromise to be made here, noise wise I would assume the air cooled to be a lot louder, are air cooled engines after some hours of cruising found to be to loud by many users?

Pardon??

I will bask in the ambience of the whole experience, however I am also intending to bring my wife along who although shows great tolerance does not share my personal enthusiasm for vintage engines. Perhaps a sound insulated forward salon/sleeping area may be appropriate in my case.

[Mick in Bangkok]

12 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Ok, once you start getting properly into vintage engines you'll soon discover they vary widely. Such that the optimum number of vintage engines you'll need is n+1, where n is the number of vintage engines you own. 

N for me is currently 5

As appealing as this sounds I will be relocating back to UK to commence my narrow boat experience and will live aboard with no other place of residence, workshop or storage facility. Given the restraints of this plan I will only be in a position to have one engine at a time so am particularly interested in a well maintained engine that will provide for my needs without too much downtime or out of boat repairs.    

[Mick in Bangkok]

14 hours ago, LEO said:

Have fun, let us know when you come over perhaps a few visits to boats with vintage engines will help..

I am planning a hire boat trip last weeks of next September 2018 to introduce myself and family to the narrow boating experience and hope to see some vintage crafts on the water and visit some boat brokerages and if possible shows during this time.

[Mick in Bangkok]

19 hours ago, LEO said:

 

Regarding para.2 of your posting,  obviously an air cooled engine will not produce hot water via a calorifier. Space heating, really the benefits of this are experienced on a cold, wet day when the warmth of the engine room is much appreciated.

To what extent would a calorifier running off a vintage engine produce hot water, would this run   central heating for one or multiple radiators or provide hot water for 1 or 2 showers a day etc ?

[MtB]

37 minutes ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

To what extent would a calorifier running off a vintage engine produce hot water, would this run   central heating for one or multiple radiators or provide hot water for 1 or 2 showers a day etc ?

 

Difficult to answer. Vintage engines vary widely so you'd need to nominate one in particular to get a meaningful opinion. But relying on the engine to heat the boat via radiators is not really practical with any engine at all. 

And in broad terms, a brand new engine will always be more reliable and easier to maintain than a vintage lump, given a lot your questions focus on reliability. Even that 'half way house' engine the Gardner 2LW is inherently likely to run out of parts availability sooner than a modern buzz box.  

[LEO]

 A water cooled engine under load will heat up a tankful of water within an hour, but as MTB wrote it's not advisable to extend this circuit to include radiators (although some owners have done this to include one or two rads).

Really it's best to keep the two circuits seperate.

I have a hot water system heated by the engine, or immersion heater or oil fired boiler. The boiler is a small Kabola, for a bigger boat a larger unit would be used to incorporate rads.

Diesel taxation has changed over recent years and now has to be split - domestic use and propulsion use so if you have an oil fired heating system try and get a dedicated tank for the heating boiler, the fuel used in the engine tank can then be costed on a split basis for taxation purposes.

Also bear in mind it's variable whether water will stay hot over night in the hot water tank..........

Hope this helps

L.

[Mick in Bangkok]

22 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

1 hour ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

To what extent would a calorifier running off a vintage engine produce hot water, would this run   central heating for one or multiple radiators or provide hot water for 1 or 2 showers a day etc ?

 

Difficult to answer. Vintage engines vary widely so you'd need to nominate one in particular to get a meaningful opinion. But relying on the engine to heat the boat via radiators is not really practical with any engine at all. 

And in broad terms, a brand new engine will always be more reliable and easier to maintain than a vintage lump, given a lot your questions focus on reliability. Even that 'half way house' engine the Gardner 2LW is inherently likely to run out of parts availability sooner than a modern buzz box.  

Perhaps a better way to phrase this question would be to ask how useful an addition to a vintage engine would a calorifier be, i.e. would it simply provide some washing up water or could it be practically relied upon to provide for a shower or heating etc.

 

Although my questions do revolve around maintenance and reliability etc. my present opinion (currently based upon other people’s experiences) is that the benefits/pleasures from a vintage lump as opposed to the additional efforts would be well worth the while so I am not put off by this. However I am still researching the extend considering my own level of mechanical skills and resources so as not to find that I may have taken on more than I can manage come the day that I make the step into boating.

 

Some of the rule of thumb/generalized replies from yourself and other form members are very enlightening as this information is not available in manuals and technical write ups otherwise available so I am taking this all in while also following the boats for sale adverts to get an idea of what is available and what direction I will eventually take.

[Mick in Bangkok]

I am also following some other threads on the forum such as what toilet options are available but find the science and varied opinions too much for me to comprehend so presently just sticking to beginners level simple mechanics of the boating life.

[mark99]

2LW heats a calorifier. Plenty of hot water for showers after a run.

Diesel fired boiler for central heating rads PLUS hot water for showers if you don't want to run the engine (best not to unless it's under load ie moving).

Best of all, two solid fuel stoves one in Trad back cabin, one in Saloon for heat.

Boats have two hearts, one the vintage lump and two the solid fuel stove(s). 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2017 by mark99

[Athy]

9 minutes ago, mark99 said:

2LW heats a calorifier. Plenty of hot water for showers after a run.

Diesel fired boiler for central heating rads PLUS hot water for showers if you don't want to run the engine (best not to unless it's under load ie moving).

 

 

 

Our experience exactly, with the same model of engine. Assuming that we've switched off the engine before 8 p.m., the water from the tap in the morning will be warm but not piping hot.

I have never seen our calorifier (it's under the bed frame) but I assume that they vary in capacity, and that the amount of available hot water will vary accordingly.

[mark99]

2 hours ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

I am also following some other threads on the forum such as what toilet options are available but find the science and varied opinions too much for me to comprehend so presently just sticking to beginners level simple mechanics of the boating life.

 

The fundamental is that do want to take your whole boat to a limited number of empty sani stations and pay<pump out>. OR have the luxury of a further but more frequent option of  porting, by hand/trolley/car boot a "suitcase" to more widely available stations free of charge <portacase type>?

 

Boating is about freedom from worry. I don't like worrying about pump out availability and locations.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2017 by mark99

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, mark99 said:

 

The fundamental is that do want to take your whole boat to a limited number of empty sani stations and pay<pump out>. OR have the luxury of a further but more frequent option of  porting, by hand/trolley/car boot a "suitcase" to more widely available stations free of charge <portacase type>?

 

Boating is about freedom from worry. I don't like worrying about pump out availability and locations.

 

 

 

 

 

 I quite agree, though if you view emptying the porta-potti cassette as a "luxury" then you may be short of luxuries.

Please note, Mick, that if there are going to be two people on board, then you will need to empty the cassette daily, so you need to be aware of the location of sanitary stations. They are marked on the maps in all the waterways guides, and are generally situated about half a day's cruising apart, though there are exceptions. For example, there isn't one between Cropredy and Napton (about eight hours' journey) but then there are at least two in Braunston (a further two hours' journey).

[rusty69]

5 minutes ago, Athy said:

Please note, Mick, that if there are going to be two people on board, then you will need to empty the cassette daily

Only if it's a tiny cassette..

[Athy]

6 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Only if it's a tiny cassette..

It's a PP 365 I think, which is probably about average size. (EDIT: it apparently holds about 4.5 gallons which is 21 litres, so why it's called a 365 I have no idea).

We do keep a spare PP on board for emergencies but have never yet had to press it into service.

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Athy said:

It's a PP 365 I think, which is probably about average size.

We do keep a spare PP on board for emergencies but have never yet had to press it into service.

Stop doing so many PP s and it will last longer 

[mark99]

4 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Only if it's a tiny cassette..

Yes us two have 4-5 days per cassette. We have three.

[Athy]

Just now, rusty69 said:

Stop doing so many PP s and it will last longer 

Teehee harhar hoho.

Hmmm...are you taking the......?

[rusty69]

11 minutes ago, Athy said:

(EDIT: it apparently holds about 4.5 gallons which is 21 litres, so why it's called a 365 I have no idea).

Cos you empty it every day for 365 days of the year 

[Athy]

Now that's worth an (Elsan) Greeno.