Brigantine

[bizzard]

A company who used to fit out Wilson boats was called BIG FISH who went bust a few years ago. A friend of mine has a wide beam built by Johnathan Wilson, a 12' 6'' wide one, It was the first wide beam that they built. I discovered when doing some work on it that one side was 6'' longer than the other, but it was the first they,d built. It was fitted out by BIG FISH and is called BIG FISH as the owner did a deal with them to advertise for them.

[Northernboater]

 

 

go to edit delete all your words and put the reason in or leave it blank

Curves cost money jonnys words not mine and the brigantine looks so much nicer than a sheffield size boat and having sailed both it sails better old adage pay more get more very true in this case

Why should I delete?

I would go for a 60ft for the reasons stated

Finesse are in the middle shed being run by Ricky and Louis

So you have sailed both when and where?

Edited December 14, 2016 by Northernboater

[Edward_M]

Not from Limehouse, you can go as you wish up the Regents or the Lea unless you want to go out on the Thames and then it is just about timing with tides and booking the lock, no need for an escort. It isn't something many people do, as it has some serious risks etc.

 

You'll be doing very well to bring a new boat into Limehouse as its full with a list, however it isn't impossible as it is exactly what I did just over a year ago. Its a great place to be based.

Yes, I understand that. Tidal thames takes planning and precautions.

 

Limehouse is difficult, but in the longer term secures return on investment.

Why should I delete?

Not you - I wanted to close the thread as the initial enquiry may be seen as questioning the quality of particular boat builders, which I didn't intend.

ADMINS - if you see this, please feel free to delete thread.

I like this forum. No haters, really interesting opinions backed up with facts, and a very helpful tone.

 

I'll be on here often!

[widebeamboy]

You'll no doubt find London Boaters and New London Boaters Facebook pages which are quite useful for local London information, although I would suggest that talking about ROI is going to just enrage many people who would otherwise provide advice freely etc.

[bizzard]

I wouldn't go wider than 12'. That extra 6'' can be nuisance.

[Edward_M]

You'll no doubt find London Boaters and New London Boaters Facebook pages which are quite useful for local London information, although I would suggest that talking about ROI is going to just enrage many people who would otherwise provide advice freely etc.

Noted. Just that if and when I have children and need to move to land, I'd like to have a boat that is highly demanded in a good location.

I wouldn't go wider than 12'. That extra 6'' can be nuisance.

That is good advice, you're not the first to say it too.

 

Even with wide gunwhales, you'd suggest that 12'6" would be hitting tunnels?

[bizzard]

Noted. Just that if and when I have children and need to move to land, I'd like to have a boat that is highly demanded in a good location.

That is good advice, you're not the first to say it too.

 

Even with wide gunwhales, you'd suggest that 12'6" would be hitting tunnels?

Possibly. But if you ever wished to cruise the river Stort ''which is a beautiful river'', that extra 6'' will be a problem. Although the locks are 80 odd feet long the are supposedly 13' or so wide, but that can vary a little, ''narrower with age here and there''. The 12' 6'' wide BIG FISH boat that I mentioned earlier can only have anodes on one side flank because of this.. Sawbridgeworth lock top gates is one pinch point.

[widebeamboy]

Whatever you go for make sure it qualifies under 744c as a qualifying ship as then you've no VAT to pay on your mooring or any further purchases if you are in Limehouse

[Edward_M]

Possibly. But if you ever wished to cruise the river Stort ''which is a beautiful river'', that extra 6'' will be a problem. Although the locks are 80 odd feet long the are supposedly 13' or so wide, but that can vary a little, ''narrower with age here and there''. The 12' 6'' wide BIG FISH boat that I mentioned earlier can only have anodes on one side flank because of this.. Sawbridgeworth lock top gates is one pinch point.

Ok. this is exactly the sort of information that you can't google. I'm thoroughly appreciative that you said that.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Limehouse is difficult, but in the longer term secures return on investment.

 

 

I don't believe there is any 'long term security' (or even short term security) within BWML Marinas.

 

We have boats in two BWML marinas and as far as I am aware there is no right to transfer moorings to a new owner. If that is an important part of your criteria for investment I would suggest you speak to he marina before spending your cash.

 

Unlike 'bricks & mortar' Marina moorings do not come under any legal protection for the 'renter' and if they so decide you can be evicted 'at a whim'.

[Edward_M]

 

I don't believe there is any 'long term security' (or even short term security) within BWML Marinas.

 

We have boats in two BWML marinas and as far as I am aware there is no right to transfer moorings to a new owner. If that is an important part of your criteria for investment I would suggest you speak to he marina before spending your cash.

 

Unlike 'bricks & mortar' Marina moorings do not come under any legal protection for the 'renter' and if they so decide you can be evicted 'at a whim'.

Thanks Alan,

 

Yes, I've discussed this with my solicitor. Although there are no 'rights', there is a traditional transferability with a 5% commission to BWML on any sale. It's not secure, as per bricks and mortar, but it is commonplace and boats for sale on a Limehouse mooring attract a MASSIVE premium. I suppose I consider that as my protection of investment, should i wish to sell the boat in 10 years etc.

[widebeamboy]

 

I don't believe there is any 'long term security' (or even short term security) within BWML Marinas.

 

We have boats in two BWML marinas and as far as I am aware there is no right to transfer moorings to a new owner. If that is an important part of your criteria for investment I would suggest you speak to he marina before spending your cash.

 

Unlike 'bricks & mortar' Marina moorings do not come under any legal protection for the 'renter' and if they so decide you can be evicted 'at a whim'.

 

whilst this is true, I'm not aware of BWML Limehouse refusing to transfer a residential status mooring as they make money on the transfer based on percentage of the final sale.

Thanks Alan,

 

Yes, I've discussed this with my solicitor. Although there are no 'rights', there is a traditional transferability with a 5% commission to BWML on any sale. It's not secure, as per bricks and mortar, but it is commonplace and boats for sale on a Limehouse mooring attract a MASSIVE premium. I suppose I consider that as my protection of investment, should i wish to sell the boat in 10 years etc.

I think what Alan is saying is that the premium for being on Limehouse could be removed as they could refuse to let you transfer the mooring, therefore you would just have a nice canal boat that doesn't have a mooring spot anymore. It is the mooring spot that attracts the premium.

you cannot go into this thinking I will definitely make money. I suspect I've easily made 50-75% return on my boat since installing it in the marina, however I don't count on that as there is always a risk something changes etc, usually when you are desperate to sell. Go in for the lifestyle and community and accept that any ROI is a bonus.

[Athy]

Some of the newer widebeams on offer look like boxes on water

We have just heard from a box which finds your comparison most insulting.

I have noted your suggestion of closing this thread, but I can see no reason to do so, as it is interesting and informative. So, if you don't mind, it can carry on.

[Alan de Enfield]

Thanks Alan,

 

Yes, I've discussed this with my solicitor. Although there are no 'rights', there is a traditional transferability with a 5% commission to BWML on any sale.

 

 

whilst this is true, I'm not aware of BWML Limehouse refusing to transfer a residential status mooring as they make money on the transfer based on percentage of the final sale.

 

 

 

Typical BWML.

 

You cannot sell a boat in the marina unless it is brokered thru' them - they then take their 5%-10%

You wish to transfer the mooring to the new buyer - they take their 5%

 

You sell your boat for £150,000 and give BWML £15,000 'for their trouble'.

[Edward_M]

 

whilst this is true, I'm not aware of BWML Limehouse refusing to transfer a residential status mooring as they make money on the transfer based on percentage of the final sale.

I think what Alan is saying is that the premium for being on Limehouse could be removed as they could refuse to let you transfer the mooring, therefore you would just have a nice canal boat that doesn't have a mooring spot anymore. It is the mooring spot that attracts the premium.

you cannot go into this thinking I will definitely make money. I suspect I've easily made 50-75% return on my boat since installing it in the marina, however I don't count on that as there is always a risk something changes etc, usually when you are desperate to sell. Go in for the lifestyle and community and accept that any ROI is a bonus.

 

You've hit the nail on the head. These are assumptions based on probability. The risk is high, but in the meantime I get to live on my ideal boat in my ideal location. A worst case scenario is losing mooring, at which point I make other plans. It certainly isn't enough to stop me from having the lifestyle I want.

[widebeamboy]

 

You've hit the nail on the head. These are assumptions based on probability. The risk is high, but in the meantime I get to live on my ideal boat in my ideal location. A worst case scenario is losing mooring, at which point I make other plans. It certainly isn't enough to stop me from having the lifestyle I want.

 

and that is indeed the best way to approach it as is exactly what I did.

[MtB]

I thought those dimensions are fine for K&A and Grand Union / Regents etc ....?

 

 

'Fine' is hardly the word I would use. "Feasible", and "possible" would be more accurate.

 

Cruising a 70ft x 12ft boat up the K&A is not going to be a particularly pleasant experience either for you or for the other boaters you encounter. Meeting another 70ft x 12ft boat coming the other way on some of the narrow stretches will be interesting!

 

Fine for moving the boat to a new permanent mooring but not really practical for general cruising about.

[Edward_M]

We have just heard from a box which finds your comparison most insulting.

I have noted your suggestion of closing this thread, but I can see no reason to do so, as it is interesting and informative. So, if you don't mind, it can carry on.

I appreciate that, but I'm sure you understand my reasons for editing the post. Given what I found out after posting it, it seems disingenuous to be asking about the quality of alternative builders.

[peterboat]

Why should I delete?

I would go for a 60ft for the reasons stated

Finesse are in the middle shed being run by Ricky and Louis

So you have sailed both when and where?

Edward wanted to delete Lesley has no 2 brigantine which i have cruised extensively, sheffield size was the first one built we went up and down the canal at sheffield, its not as maneuverable as the brigantine and is very as slab sided, since then i would think i have been on every sheffield size jonny has built just to have a look around.

[widebeamboy]

 

 

 

Typical BWML.

 

You cannot sell a boat in the marina unless it is brokered thru' them - they then take their 5%-10%

You wish to transfer the mooring to the new buyer - they take their 5%

 

You sell your boat for £150,000 and give BWML £15,000 'for their trouble'.

 

yep although you've added a significant chunk of return on your original purchase price (unless you paid a premium for a boat on a pontoon that you are now reselling of course)

 

Cannot remember the specifics however have a vague recollection if you sell via Boatshed you just pay 5% in total, don't quote me on it of course. as could be wrong as not looked into it as no point until the time arises as things can and do change.

[Edward_M]

Edward wanted to delete Lesley has no 2 brigantine which i have cruised extensively, sheffield size was the first one built we went up and down the canal at sheffield, its not as maneuverable as the brigantine and is very as slab sided, since then i would think i have been on every sheffield size jonny has built just to have a look around.

Hi Peter,

 

I haven't sailed either - I'm unfortunately having to rely on people I trust. Your description of the brigantine's maneuverability is echoed by many others. It's one of my reasons for picking this shell. The Sheffield is great, but I want a Brigantine, particularly because I'm a novice and want a boat that handles well.

 

yep although you've added a significant chunk of return on your original purchase price (unless you paid a premium for a boat on a pontoon that you are now reselling of course)

 

Cannot remember the specifics however have a vague recollection if you sell via Boatshed you just pay 5% in total, don't quote me on it of course. as could be wrong as not looked into it as no point until the time arises as things can and do change.

Yes it's 5%.

 

My thoughts on this are:

Get a boat that I want and suits my requirements. Something I'll love for 10 years.

Choose a boat that others will love in 10 years

Put it on a mooring that is in demand, even if it is expensive, as I'll happily pay that expense in the meantime for the benefits to where I get to live.

Recoup 'some' money from all invested when/if I finally need to sell it and move to land.

Don't get me wrong, people. I'm not doing this or choosing a mooring as a profit-making exercise. This is something that suits me and my family - something we want.

 

I just want to be a 'little' strategic about it and ensure that the boat and mooring I choose has a good chance of recovering a bit of money should my priorities change and I need to sell it.

For me, that means a Brigantine, rather than a widebeam. It means a boat that is a luxury apartment on water rather than a boat on a residential mooring. It means a desirable mooring that has a minimal risk of losing it, but a decent change of transferring it to a seller.

 

It sounds awful that I'm already thinking of selling, when I haven't even built it, but it's a LOT of money and I need to minimise the chances of losing most of it!

[Northernboater]

I thought those dimensions are fine for K&A and Grand Union / Regents etc ....?

Dimensions may be fine but they are busy canals especially around the London area and are getting busier with continues moorers Oh sorry cruisers, so it may be more difficult moving then it used to be. Anyway good luck with your search

[widebeamboy]

honestly, I don't think you need a Brigantine to make the returns that you might want. I'm not familiar with why a Brigantine is better than a similar size widebeam so would clearly like to understand as the same sized widebeam is easily fitted out as luxury boat on the marina.

 

Please do not base your expectations on the price this is up for. http://www.prindivillemarine.com/ Available with a mooring spot in Limehouse. Its been for sale for ages and isn't going to sell in a hurry either as it is WAY overpriced.

[Peter X]

I thought those dimensions are fine for K&A and Grand Union / Regents etc ....?

They're probably fine in the sense that you are within the maximum dimensions for all those and can get the boat through, but:

 

(1) Most canals have the odd pinch point where they're not quite so wide as elsewhere. Local knowledge is important, for example Bizzard knows the Lee and Stort well, Mike knows the K&A. I'm no expert on the GU, but it was designed, or adapted in the case of its northern part from Wigrams Turn up to the top of Camp Hill, to take a pair of working boats, so the nominal width is 14 feet, but in practice the real width of some of the bridge holes is a bit less and a pair cannot fit through them breasted up.

But I think I can assert that a boat of 70 x 12 can reach the far end of the GU, unless it runs aground. The most likely thing to stop you getting there would be either your draught (the cutting just beyond Catherine de Barnes is the worst place) or your air draught somewhere if you have too much superstructure that doesn't fold down.

 

(2) Moving a big boat that only just fits the waterway requires caution and skill when threading through the tight spots. If you allow enough time and you're familiar with the steering and a patient person it's fine, if not it could be stressful.

[widebeamboy]

ps if you fancy a good laugh go and have a read at the utter BS on the website it really is quite amusing. Am assuming most of the press articles were self funded loose advertisements.