Brigantine

[MtB]

Wot? No hotty botty?

 

 

HEY you promised not to tell anyone about that!

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Where is that? I don't know of any, and in fact although there is legislation in place re black-water tanks many countries still don't have proper facilities even to cope with that.

 

There is 'local' legislation in place around the Med Coast (which have also been extended to include Inland Waterways) which is currently be strictly enforced in Turkey and 'variably' being in Greece. France are apparently moving in this direction also.

The fines in Turkey for not having the 'blue-card' are very high.

 

Greece

In Greece the regulations relating to discharges and pollution make a holding tank a practical necessity although we are not aware of them being a legal requirement as yet. Caution should also be exerted with grey water in Greece.

Turkey

Discharge of any kind may be considered illegal. A black water tank has therefore been a practical necessity in Turkey for many years. New rules have been coming into force in some areas of Turkey (such as the Mugla District) over the last few years which require vessels to carry a Blue Card. If the rules are enforced to the full all black and grey water will need to be collected and pumped out ashore; the Blue Card will be used to monitor the amount of waste water deposited ashore to ensure holding tanks are pumped out rather than emptied into the sea.

 

France

French law requires that as of 1 January 2008 new vessels, whether French or foreign flagged, are fitted with a treatment system or retention tank for black water if they wish to have access to French ports, moorings and anchorages.

Users of older vessels which are not equipped with treatment systems or holding tanks for black water are, like all other pleasure yacht users, required to comply with the rules which prohibit discharge in ports and designated anchoring spots. They must therefore use shore toilets.

How these rules are to be applied or enforced is not very clear but it is anticipated that guidelines or a further law defining the extent and manner of application and any sanctions will be issued in the future.

In principal it is forbidden to flush toilets into canals and rivers, but as pump out facilities are few and far between until now discreet overboard discharging has been tolerated, this may of course change.

[Tam & Di]

It is interesting that there are these laws relating to grey-water discharge by sea-going craft. There is nothing comparable for inland vessels in France or any other of the interconnected inland systems. There are mutterings about it for the indefinite future, but as I noted earlier there are very few places to discharge the more noxious black-water tanks legally in France, nor even in the Netherlands where they tend to be more law-abiding.

[Athy]

How very French: laying down stringent rules and then more or less forgetting about them. You have to love them.

I think that the Locaboat pénichettes which we've hired for the last couple of years have grey-water tanks but I'm not absolutely sure. There is a mysterious indicator on the dashboard whose function I have not yet discovered; it may be a measure of grey water or of the sewage holding tank.

[peterboat]

 

 

No insurmountable problems switching from one to the other, although not quite as straightforward as might appear.

 

Running both heat sources together however is a whole nother ball game and best avoided in my opinion. Plenty of people claim to have done it successfully but compromises were always involved when I get to see one.

 

As previously suggested, two completely separate heating systems is a Good Idea. I have solid fuel heating and a warm air system. And a calorifier and a Morco for hot water.

Its easy Mike I have a heat store to which all the heat sources send the hot water that includes the engine. I then have a gravity circuit for the cauliflower and a pumped circuit for the rads works well and it is what they use in houses with multiple heat sources.

The only issue is I suppose is if the heat source bursts 180 litres of coolant everywhere doesnt fill me with joy

[Tam & Di]

 

I think that the Locaboat pénichettes which we've hired for the last couple of years have grey-water tanks but I'm not absolutely sure. There is a mysterious indicator on the dashboard whose function I have not yet discovered; it may be a measure of grey water or of the sewage holding tank.

 

I'd guess it would be the sewage tank. There is no mention of black water or grey water on their literature, but one of their 12-person penichettes out for two weeks would require a formidable sized separate tank to cope with all their waste from washing up, washing and showering etc.

[Athy]

 

I'd guess it would be the sewage tank. There is no mention of black water or grey water on their literature, but one of their 12-person penichettes out for two weeks would require a formidable sized separate tank to cope with all their waste from washing up, washing and showering etc.

Yes, that does make sense. The bigger ones would need to tow a butty (which I have no idea of in French: remorque?) just to accommodate the tank.

[ditchcrawler]

How very French: laying down stringent rules and then more or less forgetting about them. You have to love them.

I think that the Locaboat pénichettes which we've hired for the last couple of years have grey-water tanks but I'm not absolutely sure. There is a mysterious indicator on the dashboard whose function I have not yet discovered; it may be a measure of grey water or of the sewage holding tank.

The one we hired on the Canal du Midi did, it also had sea toilets. after about 4 days the grey tank was full and which point it overflowed into the canal and boy did it stink.

[Edward_M]

So, I'm set on this, or something similar:

http://barges.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=480505

 

Some minor modifications, as discussed with owner:

-Single cabin and master cabin aft converted to a master cabin and ensuite.

-Rayburn converted to diesel for use in marina (marina rules, apparently)

-Wood stack next to Rayburn converted to MF stove

 

I know it won't go up in value like an original, but it meets all of my requirements, will be easier to maintain for a novice like me, can still navigate the K&A and Thames to Oxford, and I love the fact that the owner has fit it himself using good materials and attention to detail.

 

Will view it in a week or so when I get back to London, survey it and go from there.

 

Fingers crossed, because I'm falling in love with this boat.

 

A few further questions:

-I need a recommendation for a London based company to build a U-shaped dinette / double bed unit

-What anodes are best for Thames between Brentford and Limehouse (I'm told there is some salinity)

 

Thanks all for the help - I'm glad I've been talked out of the original idea. I know we'll be happier with something like this and I can terrorise the rest of the canals in a hireboat, in time.

[peterboat]

Nice looking boat Edward with the changes you describe should be a great space to live. I hope when you view it, it ticks all the boxes. What I dont understand is why you are fitting a multifuel stove as well. my rayburn produces a lot of heat, it is a solid fuel model and looking at yours smaller but it heats a similar space to yours very well. A would be tempted to fit a oil fired bubble stove with backboiler and leave the rayburn as it is instead of converting it to oil. Good luck with your viewing

[Edward_M]

Nice looking boat Edward with the changes you describe should be a great space to live. I hope when you view it, it ticks all the boxes. What I dont understand is why you are fitting a multifuel stove as well. my rayburn produces a lot of heat, it is a solid fuel model and looking at yours smaller but it heats a similar space to yours very well. A would be tempted to fit a oil fired bubble stove with backboiler and leave the rayburn as it is instead of converting it to oil. Good luck with your viewing

Thanks Peter,

 

It's actually a pretty stupid reason for fitting the solid fuel stove and converting the Rayburn. In Australia, wood / solid fuel stoves are an absolute rarity. I've always wanted one, particularly one that you can sit around and watch it burn, or have a glow from the coals. Its an extravagance I know, but it's something I want.

[Edward_M]

Nice looking boat Edward with the changes you describe should be a great space to live. I hope when you view it, it ticks all the boxes. What I dont understand is why you are fitting a multifuel stove as well. my rayburn produces a lot of heat, it is a solid fuel model and looking at yours smaller but it heats a similar space to yours very well. A would be tempted to fit a oil fired bubble stove with backboiler and leave the rayburn as it is instead of converting it to oil. Good luck with your viewing

Also - I assume with a Rayburn oil burner, you can have it just heating the boiler in the summer without it overly heating up the surrounding area?

[Athy]

Its an extravagance I know, but it's something I want.

...which is an excellent reason for buying one. Let's face it, £200,000 for a boat is an extravagance in itself, so why spoil the ship for an extra few hundred pounds?

And yes, the cosy glow of flames licking around the logs is nearly as appealing as the warmth which the stove produces. I quite often find myself gazing at ours at home, which gives you an idea of the quality of television programmes which Mrs. Athy is wont to watch. Oh, C.S.I. again, how nice...

Also - I assume with a Rayburn oil burner, you can have it just heating the boiler in the summer without it overly heating up the surrounding area?

Yes - especially as, unlike an Aga, a Rayburn is not on all the time. Ours (built 2011) has separate timing controls for the water and the cooker. It is well insulated, so unless you have the lids up to expose the hob (which, helpfully, is heat-graded along its length) there's not much heat radiated except from the chimney flue. Older models do tend to produce more heat, I guess the insulation system is different.

[peterboat]

You need a pressure jet conversion for your rayburn then and that might not be possible, or a complete new rayburn as the gubbins in a modern oil fired rayburn isnt the same a solid fuel one. I love my rayburn royal, in baby blue its a thing of beauty and works so well at cooking food, space heating and producing lots of hot water plus hot rads. However its dusty and sometimes can make the boat a bit warm spring and autumn

I have just remembered i thought you wernt allowed solid fuel appliances at your proposed moorings

[Edward_M]

I think I may be missing something - if you need hot water in summer but don't want to heat the boat... are you still using your MF rayburn?

 

Peter- yes there are restrictions, but I'm considering options of having both.

[Athy]

I think I may be missing something - if you need hot water in summer but don't want to heat the boat... are you still using your MF rayburn?

.

"MF"?

Ours has separate controls for domestic water heating and for central heating radiators. Our last one didn't, but no problem: when the weather got warmer we simply turned off our radiators.

We have not had a Rayburn in any o four boats, only at home..

[Edward_M]

Have decided that should the survey / negotiation etc go well, I'd remove the rayburn, replace with a simple multi-fuel stove, add an oil-powered unit in the engine room (which I understand would need a calorifier storage unit?) to heat the boat and provide hot water.

 

That seems the best of both worlds. Although I can't use the wood stove in the marina, i'll want one when travelling (which I plan on doing a fair bit of).

[Edward_M]

Does anyone know if you can put clear doors on a rayburn to see the wood burning? Google doesn't help.

[Athy]

Does anyone know if you can put clear doors on a rayburn to see the wood burning? Google doesn't help.

I don't think so. I have seen many Rayburns but never saw one with a glazed door. It's because the Rayburn was designed as a cooker, not a room heater, so a well-insulated fire door meant that the optimum amount of heat reached the ovens (most have two - a main oven, and a smaller one below it which heats up to about half the temperature of the main one) and the hob,and heated them efficiently.

 

You could, of course, leave that door open.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Athy

[peterboat]

I think I may be missing something - if you need hot water in summer but don't want to heat the boat... are you still using your MF rayburn?

 

Peter- yes there are restrictions, but I'm considering options of having both.

 

 

"MF"?

Ours has separate controls for domestic water heating and for central heating radiators. Our last one didn't, but no problem: when the weather got warmer we simply turned off our radiators.

We have not had a Rayburn in any o four boats, only at home..

 

 

Have decided that should the survey / negotiation etc go well, I'd remove the rayburn, replace with a simple multi-fuel stove, add an oil-powered unit in the engine room (which I understand would need a calorifier storage unit?) to heat the boat and provide hot water.

 

That seems the best of both worlds. Although I can't use the wood stove in the marina, i'll want one when travelling (which I plan on doing a fair bit of).

 

 

Does anyone know if you can put clear doors on a rayburn to see the wood burning? Google doesn't help.

rayburn like yours and mine can produce hot water in summer but it might make the boat to hot so as long as you are in a marina an immersion heater for hot water might be the answer.

Now a rayburn like athys is a different beast it can just cook, do hot water or do hot water and radiators, i just wanted a simple thing which can cook heat hot water and rads in the winter.

have in the past seen a rayburn with a glass door on ebay a company was upgrading old rayburns, that was a couple of years ago not looked since sorry

[Athy]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

have in the past seen a rayburn with a glass door on ebay a company was upgrading old rayburns, that was a couple of years ago not looked since sorry

But was it a fire door or an oven door? The latter is, I think, more likely.

[Edward_M]

I know this isn't the appropriate thread for it, but can someone link me to a thread of choosing a good multi-fuel stove (no boiler) to fit in a 900mm hearth (wood cabinets on both sides)?

 

I want something with big glazing in door to see fire, efficient, fits in that space, and will burn coal or wood.

 

And with airclean (or whatever you call the technology that stops the glass from fouling) and cleanburn (or whatever you call the thing that makes less ash) - you can tell I'm familiar with stoves in Australia, right?

Edited December 18, 2016 by Edward Mendelson

[Athy]

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Now a rayburn like athys is a different beast it can just cook, do hot water or do hot water and radiators, i just wanted a simple thing which can cook heat hot water and rads in the winter.

 

Er, Peter, those are the same thing!

Perhaps you mean that ours has more sophisticated controls; as I mentioned earlier, I've had two; the previous one was a converted Royal which did indeed have fewer control options.

[Alan de Enfield]

I know this isn't the appropriate thread for it, but can someone link me to a thread of choosing a good multi-fuel stove (no boiler) to fit in a 900mm hearth (wood cabinets on both sides)?

 

 

 

You are going to seriously compromise the 'effective' heat output by having cupboards on two sides and (presumably) the back against the side of the boat.

In effect your radiated heat will only have 'one-side' (the front) to 'escape from'.

 

You also need to leave a large air-gap between the fire and the 'cupboards' - the cupboard walls will need to be insulated with fireboard with an air gap between the back of the fireboard and the wooden cupboard sides.

 

We wanted to do the same and the only way to fit a SF stove in the space was to use the 3.5Kw 'Pipsqueak' which only has an 8" square firebox and a 1 1/2" square 'window'.

It is far easier to 'build the boat around the fire' than to try and fit the fire you want into a small space that just happens to be available.

 

This is what ours ended up looking like, by the time we had built the 'space' to the requirements.

Concrete slab 'hearth', fireboards with spacing, then tiled with porcelain tiles. Flue at the correct dimensions from the walls.

 

 

Have a read of the attached :-

 

Boat Stoves 1-page.pdf

Edited December 18, 2016 by Alan de Enfield

[Giant]

What anodes are best for Thames between Brentford and Limehouse (I'm told there is some salinity)

 

Aluminium is the best bet for brackish water and is what we have fitted. Not quite as good as zinc in seawater or as magnesium in fresh, but definitely the best choice if you are somewhere in between, or cruising on a mix of waters.