Equality Commision Investigates C&RT

[Alan de Enfield]

 

And there are residential moorings available within easy range of a school.

 

I believe, for example, that residential moorings come up at New Mills fairly regularly, and that is a very easy walk to a primary school, and on a bus route to a secondary school.

 

You seem to want moorings available in a particular town. Given that there are many people who live ashore who couldn't secure a home in that town either, what is the difference?

 

Our Marina also has residential moorings available, is almost in the 'centre of a small town' and is within 'minutes walk' of Junior, Senior schools and colleges.

 

As I suggested a number of posts ago - moorings are available, but, maybe not in the 'South' and not where the NBTA members would like them.

[Murflynn]

 

 

You seem to want moorings available in a particular town. Given that there are many people who live ashore who couldn't secure a home in that town either, what is the difference?

good point.

 

it seems that having a boat and being mobile enables some folk to move to be near the town and school of their choice, then they are disappointed and make a fuss when they find they can't moor indefinitely in the area for free.

 

if only it was so simple for house-dwellers.

[Mike Todd]

 

Don't forget their 9% of turnover of all the marinas with a connection agreement

I wasn't but someone had already mentioned marina owners.

[Graham Davis]

You seem to want moorings available in a particular town. Given that there are many people who live ashore who couldn't secure a home in that town either, what is the difference?

 

Quite!

But it appears the NBTA and certain members here cannot accept that.

[Mike Todd]

I sometimes wonder how many people, whose experience is substantially urban, understand what rural life is like. Where I am sitting right now - looking across t the local secondary school, such establishments are typically over 10 mikes apart and parents are expected to ensure that their children attend wherever they are admitted. (We do look rather wry when politicians talk about competition in the education market!) Help with travel is only funded for those whose journey by the shortest route (sometimes only theoretical) is over three miles. As I have pointed out before, if there was a canal hereabouts, it would be quite possible, under the current approach to enforcement, to keep under the radar and to have to make no greater school runs than apply to most people. It should also be noted that those who live furthest from a school are often the lower income families, such is the impact of rural poverty. And don't even begin to talk about bus services . . .

[Alan de Enfield]

I wasn't but someone had already mentioned marina owners.

 

It was I.

 

I was previously referring to the marina operators loss of business / income and the possibility of closure.

 

You raised the subject of reduced income for C&RT, because of the loss of income from their moorings.

 

The 9% is a C&RT income paid by the marina operators for the right to access the water. If there are no marinas C&RT will lose an income stream of £xxx,xxx.

 

C&RT would, in addition, lose all of the income from BWML.

[Jerra]

I assume the provision for pregnant ladies applies when they are heavily pregnant. As I remember my wife's pregnancies the early weeks were no handicap at all.

 

The point I was going to make is that families have known there was a pregnancy for some weeks if not months. Is there any reason why in the preparations for the baby they shouldn't also consider where the boat is moored and any changes that might be sensible/required. You don't suddenly wake up one morning and find you are heavily pregnant and have problems.

[spadefoot]

 

And there are residential moorings available within easy range of a school.

 

I believe, for example, that residential moorings come up at New Mills fairly regularly, and that is a very easy walk to a primary school, and on a bus route to a secondary school.

 

You seem to want moorings available in a particular town. Given that there are many people who live ashore who couldn't secure a home in that town either, what is the difference?

You make pointless arguments for the sake of it. Do you do it for a living?

I'm afraid I don't know where New Mills is. It's quite possibly not in a convenient place if for example you work, have family, have a network of friends etc, perhaps 100miles away. Probably very convenient if you have all that nearby. This could be very important to some, less so to others. Don't lump everyone together. All are individuals, with individual needs & requirements.

 

Do not tell me what I want. I do not want moorings anywhere. I am retired and CC quite happily thank you.

 

Why should we be discussing house dwelling on a forum about canals, in a topic about life as a liveaboard? I believe you, like others, are using it as a diversion in an attempt to derail the argument. A very common tactic amongst the thoughtless, the smug, and people arguing from a position of relative privilege. Don't be one of those.

[Jerra]

Why should we be discussing house dwelling on a forum about canals, in a topic about life as a liveaboard?

I take it you have never heard or or experience thread drift.

 

It is after all a discussion forum and most discussions wander widely back and forward, around, near and on topic.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

I'm afraid I don't know where New Mills is. It's quite possibly not in a convenient place if for example you work, have family, have a network of friends etc, perhaps 100miles away.

 

Are you therefore suggesting that in fact 'work' is the reason to stay in one area, and that other reasons are given purely as a diversion ?

[spadefoot]

 

Quite!

But it appears the NBTA and certain members here cannot accept that.

Graham, does it not occur to you, that some of those finding it very difficult to find land-based accommodation in their home town, have turned to boats in a possibly desperate (and possibly misguided) attempt to secure some half decent accommodation for themselves & family?

Do you not listen to the news? Did the recession pass you by? Have you not heard of the austerity drive? Have you not noticed people sleeping rough? Have you not spotted the small clusters of tent dwellings around town parks & in woods & along the canal edges? Do you have any idea of the sort of accommodation that some poor buggers are expected to put up with?

 

Are you therefore suggesting that in fact 'work' is the reason to stay in one area, and that other reasons are given purely as a diversion ?

You can't deny that it is "a" factor. I do not know why people give other reasons, you would have to ask them A diversion seems low on a list of possibilities.

[Athy]

You make pointless arguments for the sake of it. Do you do it for a living?

I'm afraid I don't know where New Mills is.

I for one don't find Mr. Mayall's argument pointless. To the best of my knowledge he does have a proper job. New Mills is in the Peak District, and is on the Peak Forest Canal. It is known as a quite expensive town for housing (well, expensive in Northern terms).

Do you have any idea of the sort of accommodation that some poor buggers are expected to put up with?

.

My God, yes: rusty Springers. Poor devils...

[spadefoot]

I take it you have never heard or or experience thread drift.

 

It is after all a discussion forum and most discussions wander widely back and forward, around, near and on topic.

There is thread drift, and there is derailing.

One of them is done utterly on purpose.

 

My God, yes: rusty Springers. Poor devils...

Ahhh, if only life were that funny.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

You can't deny that it is "a" factor. I do not know why people give other reasons, you would have to ask them A diversion seems low on a list of possibilities.

 

I do not deny that work can be a 'serious factor' in the decision making process, but, as the boat owner will be aware when they declare to be CCers (no home mooring) the use of 'I work in the locality so need to stay close' is neither acceptable to C&RT, nor is a 'protected characteristic' in law.

[mayalld]

You make pointless arguments for the sake of it. Do you do it for a living?

I'm afraid I don't know where New Mills is. It's quite possibly not in a convenient place if for example you work, have family, have a network of friends etc, perhaps 100miles away. Probably very convenient if you have all that nearby. This could be very important to some, less so to others. Don't lump everyone together. All are individuals, with individual needs & requirements.

 

Do not tell me what I want. I do not want moorings anywhere. I am retired and CC quite happily thank you.

 

Why should we be discussing house dwelling on a forum about canals, in a topic about life as a liveaboard? I believe you, like others, are using it as a diversion in an attempt to derail the argument. A very common tactic amongst the thoughtless, the smug, and people arguing from a position of relative privilege. Don't be one of those.

 

I didn't say that you wanted a mooring. Rather that you want moorings to be made available wherever those who have children want to be.

 

I'm not arguing from a position of privilege. That presumes that I have what I have simply through the luck of the draw. I didn't. I worked damned hard, and continue to do so in order to ensure that I am not beholden to anybody changing the rules to suit me. That isn't privilege, it's taking responsibility.

 

My "privilege" comes at the expense of work being 90 minutes drive from home.

 

It is unfortunate that you don't know where New Mills is, as it is a charming little town in the Peak District, with excellent transport links to Manchester. You might like it there (Kiki who used to post here liked it so much that when they sold the boat, they settled there, half a world away from home in Cape Town).

 

As to why we should discuss house dwellers; We should discuss them, because the discussion is about the disconnect between what PEOPLE want, and what they can actually have. Whether they live aboard, or ashore, this is about people.

 

As a house dweller, I may have many different wants about where I live. In the end, several of the locations that I might want are not available to me for various reasons. That is just life.

 

Why should that simple truth be any different for a boat dweller. Why do you imagine that living aboard suddenly gives people an entitlement to live in the exact location that they want.

[Geo]

From my experience with those who have housing problems the systems is there to get them housing etc as near as possible to their work and schools the children go to. There is no point in moving people away from the area they are settled in and removing jobs and interrupting schooling it just makes the situation worse not better, no job = no money etc.

 

So mooring need to be found in the area they are settled in.

 

Why not let them stay where they are or move them a couple of hundred metres if there are better more convenient moorings. Wherever they go there are going to be grumbles. I can remember when the big push to build council houses happened in the 50/60s it was always oh not here.

[Athy]

.

Ahhh, if only life were that funny.

My point may have been made with a little levity, but has a serious undertone. Yes, many of us, when young, have lived in grim places at some time in our lives: dingy bedsits, or sleeping on friends' floors. Having done so helps us appreciate it when we move up the ladder to more pleasant accommodation.

 

No, I have never seen people camping in parks or by the canalside (except during the Cropredy Festival when a couple of tents appeared on the towpath). I suppose that it you go out of your way to seek the most squalid, you will find it sooner or later. Some people prefer to don their nice glasses rather than their nasty glasses, and to view the world accordingly.

[Guest]

My point may have been made with a little levity, but has a serious undertone. Yes, many of us, when young, have lived in grim places at some time in our lives: dingy bedsits, or sleeping on friends' floors. Having done so helps us appreciate it when we move up the ladder to more pleasant accommodation.

 

No, I have never seen people camping in parks or by the canalside (except during the Cropredy Festival when a couple of tents appeared on the towpath). I suppose that it you go out of your way to seek the most squalid, you will find it sooner or later. Some people prefer to don their nice glasses rather than their nasty glasses, and to view the world accordingly.

Or blinkers perhaps?

[Athy]

Or blinkers perhaps?

[Geo]

 

I didn't say that you wanted a mooring. Rather that you want moorings to be made available wherever those who have children want to be.

 

I think the point as far as the authorities is where can these children be moored that will enable them to get to school regularly and without destroying the family unit, i.e. allowing jobs etc to continue

 

I'm not arguing from a position of privilege. That presumes that I have what I have simply through the luck of the draw. I didn't. I worked damned hard, and continue to do so in order to ensure that I am not beholden to anybody changing the rules to suit me. That isn't privilege, it's taking responsibility.

 

I would suggest that the boater with children has taken some responsibility by at least putting a stable roof over their children's heads. Your privilage is having the education and qualifications that allow you to be able to attain that lovely position of not being beholden to anyone.

 

My "privilege" comes at the expense of work being 90 minutes drive from home.

 

That is a choice you make. I know that the boaters with families would love to be in the position to make that choice to drive 90 minutes to work. You probably spend more on fuel for the car in a month than they have available for fuel for their boats in a year.

 

It is unfortunate that you don't know where New Mills is, as it is a charming little town in the Peak District, with excellent transport links to Manchester. You might like it there (Kiki who used to post here liked it so much that when they sold the boat, they settled there, half a world away from home in Cape Town).

 

As to why we should discuss house dwellers; We should discuss them, because the discussion is about the disconnect between what PEOPLE want, and what they can actually have. Whether they live aboard, or ashore, this is about people.

 

I am not sure you are right, here specifically this thread was about children, protecting them and making sure we do the best that can be done for them. Most of us are lucky and able to make sure our children have the best education we can find. This thread started as being about parents who are struggling to do the same thing.

 

As a house dweller, I may have many different wants about where I live. In the end, several of the locations that I might want are not available to me for various reasons. That is just life.

 

No it is not just life as you put it. It is to do with what your education and privilege have bought you and the failure of society to look after children who are not in such a privileged position.

 

Why should that simple truth be any different for a boat dweller. Why do you imagine that living aboard suddenly gives people an entitlement to live in the exact location that they want.

 

Trouble is it is not a simple truth, it is something the privileged like to wheel out and say to or about those that are struggling in this country of England.

[KevMc]

 

Our Marina also has residential moorings available, is almost in the 'centre of a small town' and is within 'minutes walk' of Junior, Senior schools and colleges.

 

As I suggested a number of posts ago - moorings are available, but, maybe not in the 'South' and not where the NBTA members would like them.

 

To be fair .... they need to be near employment opportunities as well

[Chewbacka]

This is what I would do.

I think it reasonable that children should within a family unit attend the same school as their siblings (assuming age is appropriate etc) and they should not have to change schools as consistency is important.

They should be able to moor within 3 miles of their school by a reasonable route. If necessary allowing a much more limited moving range during term time.

Outside of term time normal cc rules apply.

They may not be able to stay at their current school if there are no moorings appropriate, but this should be subject to independent review if they are required to move school. After moving they should be able to remain at that school if they so choose.

[IanD]

The old parish system worked OK years ago. But there weren't many boaters doing it then, and BW more or less turned a blind eye anyway. The problems come when more and more people need more or less permanent residential moorings when there aren't any. No different really from those who once would have been in council houses now having to go private.

I don't think that freeing the whole system up would damage marinas too much - most people would still want the security & convenience they provide.

Shouldn't that say "more and more people would like more or less permanent residential moorings where there aren't any", not need?

 

One is a desire driven by personal choices ("I'd like to eat steak every day"), the other is a requirement where there is no alternative ("I'll die if I don't get enough to eat").

 

It's not easy -- maybe impossible -- for anyone (including CART) to find a solution which meets the wants of people like the K&A families without having significant negative effects on the canal system or the other people who live on it; at one end of the opinion spectrum there are the "bleeding-heart liberal Guardian readers" who want to be nice to people with children, at the other end there are the "hanging's too good for the scroungers Daily Telegraph readers" who don't want their hard-earned taxes paying for cheating scum...

 

[exaggerated for the sake of irony, don't flame me for the labels]

Edited November 22, 2016 by IanD

[Naughty Cal]

 

To be fair .... they need to be near employment opportunities as well

Despite what people might believe there are employment opportunities available away from the south

[Murflynn]

 

CCing is not compatible with children attending school (unless it's a boarding school).

 

PERIOD.