New batteries - capacity

[dor]

Do new batteries (sealed led-calcium) normally need a couple of charge/discharge cycles before they charge to their full capacity?

 

I've just fitted some and their capacity, whilst reasonable, is not quite as good as I expected, but they do seem to have improved a bit after a discharge (to 12.4V) and recharge.

[nicknorman]

Do new batteries (sealed led-calcium) normally need a couple of charge/discharge cycles before they charge to their full capacity?

 

I've just fitted some and their capacity, whilst reasonable, is not quite as good as I expected, but they do seem to have improved a bit after a discharge (to 12.4V) and recharge.

Yes I think all lead acid batteries are a bit "lazy" when new, perhaps due to being unused for a while. But with that type, full capacity is reached pretty quickly, just a few cycles. Unlike semi-traction batteries which seem to need 100 cycles or so to reach full capacity.

[WotEver]

I read an article quite recently that suggested that 'new' capacity will generally be in the region of 70% of advertised capacity until they're worn-in.

[Keeping Up]

I often find they've started to wear out before they've finished wearing in.

[BruceinSanity]

I read an article quite recently that suggested that 'new' capacity will generally be in the region of 70% of advertised capacity until they're worn-in.

Similarly, they seem lazy after a period of time on the shoreline, despite occasional bursts of absorption from the charger. A bit of stratification, I guess.

[dmr]

I often find they've started to wear out before they've finished wearing in.

 

I think this also applies to myself, and probably most other people too.

 

...........Dave

[Geo]

Think it takes the plates a while to absorb the charge to their full depth, hence with traction type batteries they can take 50/100 charges as they have the heavies plates of all the batteries I know off.

[dor]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I had a suspicion that it took a few cycles to bump it up but wasn't certain. Your replies suggest that it is the case. Maybe the vibration helps to mix them up a bit.

[Naughty Cal]

Similarly, they seem lazy after a period of time on the shoreline, despite occasional bursts of absorption from the charger. A bit of stratification, I guess.

We find this after our usual 3 months ashore in the winter. For the first couple of weekends after we are relaunched the batteries perform quite poorly but then come back to life again after a few cycles.

[WotEver]

We find this after our usual 3 months ashore in the winter. For the first couple of weekends after we are relaunched the batteries perform quite poorly but then come back to life again after a few cycles.

Nick has reported the same.

[MtB]

We find this after our usual 3 months ashore in the winter. For the first couple of weekends after we are relaunched the batteries perform quite poorly but then come back to life again after a few cycles.

 

 

What batteries do you have?

[Naughty Cal]

 

 

What batteries do you have?

2 x Varta Professional 105ah

[valrene9600]

Do new batteries (sealed led-calcium) normally need a couple of charge/discharge cycles before they charge to their full capacity?

 

I've just fitted some and their capacity, whilst reasonable, is not quite as good as I expected, but they do seem to have improved a bit after a discharge (to 12.4V) and recharge.

Can we be sure what batteries you have.

Are they bog standard lead acid or sealed lead calcium.

I have numax lead calcium cxv31 and they charge at 14.8 as bog standard open lead acid.

At first I did find charging them as sealed about from memory 14.4 or 14.6 was not giving them enough. Have been on higher charge a long long time now with good results.

Can you be having problems because of reduced charging rate you are using. Just a thought.

Edited September 30, 2016 by valrene9600

[dor]

Can we be sure what batteries you have.

Are they bog standard lead acid or sealed lead calcium.

I have numax lead calcium cxv31 and they charge at 14.8 as bog standard open lead acid.

At first I did find charging them as sealed about from memory 14.4 or 14.6 was not giving them enough. Have been on higher charge a long long time now with good results.

Can you be having problems because of reduced charging rate you are using. Just a thought.

 

I'm charging at 14.4V. Vetus Lead calcium (despite the brand, actually quite reasonably priced from my supplier). Same as I normally use for my batteries as I upgraded the regulator on my alternator rather than using an expensive external one (14.4V regulator £15).

I have charged sealed batteries at 14.8V before without any problems, as long as the regulator goes into float mode reasonably promptly once the charging current has dropped sufficently.

[valrene9600]

So your happy now with charging at 14.4

I can't say anything else as my knowledge is limited to personal experience and what I pick up on the forum. I will watch with interest at any response to 14.4 but I do think that's low but not knowing to much I could be wrong.

Edited September 30, 2016 by valrene9600

[Arthur Brown]

Yes batteries do achieve better performance when cycled a few times after being stood for a long period.

 

You can charge a battery at ANY voltage! Just the higher the voltage the more critical the shut off becomes. Batteries on permanent float (Battery rooms for building UPS for example) will sit on permanent charge at about 13v the exact voltage will be specified by the battery makers probably to three decimal points.

[AndyV]

So would it be a good idea if the boat is connected to a shoreline for a long period to disconnect the shoreline for, say, a day a week to keep the batteries "performing". Or would this be outweighed by wearing them out quicker (if it would)?

[WotEver]

So would it be a good idea if the boat is connected to a shoreline for a long period to disconnect the shoreline for, say, a day a week to keep the batteries "performing". Or would this be outweighed by wearing them out quicker (if it would)?

I don't really see the point. Okay, so they get a bit lazy after a few months but so what? It's not harming them in any way and after a few cycles they're back to normal.

[cuthound]

I read an article quite recently that suggested that 'new' capacity will generally be in the region of 70% of advertised capacity until they're worn-in.

Correct. The plates are not fully formed when manufactured and require a few charge/discharge cycles to complete the formation.

 

Edited to remove a spurious worm.

Edited October 1, 2016 by cuthound

[MtB]

Correct. The plates are nothe fully formed when manufactured and require a few charge/discharge cycles to complete the formation.

 

 

How does that work then? How can a physical plate not be 'fully formed? What happens to complete their formation during the first few cycles?!

[cuthound]

Yes batteries do achieve better performance when cycled a few times after being stood for a long period.

 

You can charge a battery at ANY voltage! Just the higher the voltage the more critical the shut off becomes. Batteries on permanent float (Battery rooms for building UPS for example) will sit on permanent charge at about 13v the exact voltage will be specified by the battery makers probably to three decimal points.

The battery manufacturer will also specify the temperature at which a particular voltage is relevant. Usually UPS batteries have temperature sensors attached to feedback to the charger so that the output voltage can be compensated for temperature changes.

[cuthound]

 

 

How does that work then? How can a physical plate not be 'fully formed? What happens to complete their formation during the first few cycles?!

How does that work then? How can a physical plate not be 'fully formed? What happens to complete their formation during the first few cycles?!

Modern lead acid batteries have plates made of a lead grid, holding an active lead oxide paste. This paste is cured in manufacture, but takes a few cycles to become fully effective. Manufacturers allow the customer to do the final formation, because it is cheaper for them and gives the maximum usable battery life for the customer.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

"In 1880, Camille Alphonse Faure patented a method of coating a lead grid (which serves as the current conductor) with a paste of lead oxides, sulphuric acid and water, followed by curing phase in which the plates were exposed to gentle heat in a high humidity environment. The curing process caused the paste to change to a mixture of lead sulphates which adhered to the lead plate. Then, during the battery's initial charge (called "formation") the cured paste on the plates was converted into electrochemically active material (the "active mass"). Faure's process significantly reduced the time and cost to manufacture leadacid batteries, and gave a substantial increase in capacity compared with Planté's battery.[22] Faure's method is still in use today, with only incremental improvements to paste composition, curing (which is still done with steam, but is now a very tightly controlled process), and structure and composition of the grid to which the paste is applied."

 

Edited to replace American misspelling (use of the letter "f") instead of good old British "ph's".

Edited October 1, 2016 by cuthound

[MtB]

Modern lead acid batteries have plates made of a lead grid, holding an active lead oxide paste. This paste is cured in manufacture, but takes a few cycles to become fully effective. Manufacturers allow the customer to do the final formation, because it is cheaper for them and gives the maximum usable battery life for the customer.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

"In 1880, Camille Alphonse Faure patented a method of coating a lead grid (which serves as the current conductor) with a paste of lead oxides, sulphuric acid and water, followed by curing phase in which the plates were exposed to gentle heat in a high humidity environment. The curing process caused the paste to change to a mixture of lead sulphates which adhered to the lead plate. Then, during the battery's initial charge (called "formation") the cured paste on the plates was converted into electrochemically active material (the "active mass"). Faure's process significantly reduced the time and cost to manufacture leadacid batteries, and gave a substantial increase in capacity compared with Planté's battery.[22] Faure's method is still in use today, with only incremental improvements to paste composition, curing (which is still done with steam, but is now a very tightly controlled process), and structure and composition of the grid to which the paste is applied."

 

Edited to replace American misspelling (use of the letter "f") instead of good old British "ph's".

 

 

Fascinating, thank you!

 

I had no idea. I thought the plates were solid lead, as I was taught in physics lessons at skool. We only learned about that Planté bloke's battery!

 

(Or was it Leclanché?!)