Overstaying and Sighting Record

[Alan de Enfield]

It is a problem to report a negative,

 

If for a specific location there is (say) only one boat there, then either :

 

1) By default the other 32,998 boats are not there, or,

2) You list the other 32,998 boats that are not there.

 

The C&RT system (either computer or manual based) seems to be unable to grasp that if a boat is not there, it is somewhere else, as it is currently, "a boat is always where it was last seen until it is seen again", which is crazy.

[KevMc]

It is a problem to report a negative,

 

If for a specific location there is (say) only one boat there, then either :

 

1) By default the other 32,998 boats are not there, or,

2) You list the other 32,998 boats that are not there.

 

The C&RT system (either computer or manual based) seems to be unable to grasp that if a boat is not there, it is somewhere else, as it is currently, "a boat is always where it was last seen until it is seen again", which is crazy.

 

That's why I suggest they record a ficticious boat at each location .... the presence of that boat on its own means there are no other boats at the location.

 

If you aren't recorded at a location when someone else (including the dummy boat) then you are somewhere else .... maybe being recorded at a different location, maybe not being recorded - but you are not overstaying where you haven't been recorded.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

That's why I suggest they record a ficticious boat at each location .... the presence of that boat on its own means there are no other boats at the location.

 

If you aren't recorded at a location when someone else (including the dummy boat) then you are somewhere else .... maybe being recorded at a different location, maybe not being recorded - but you are not overstaying where you haven't been recorded.

 

But the 'system' cannot cope with a boat not being logged.

It was logged on 'arrival', but it appears that there is 'no box to tick' for when a boat departs.

 

If on each visit the 'enforcer' had a list of who was there last time he visited, he could then 'delete' those no longer there, and add in those arrived since the last visit.

 

But that seems far to complicated for C&RT

[KevMc]

 

But the 'system' cannot cope with a boat not being logged.

It was logged on 'arrival', but it appears that there is 'no box to tick' for when a boat departs.

 

If on each visit the 'enforcer' had a list of who was there last time he visited, he could then 'delete' those no longer there, and add in those arrived since the last visit.

 

But that seems far to complicated for C&RT

I was suggesting to Mike a way that the system could be tweaked to provide the necessary information without a major rewrite .. if you only record what you see and you know when each site was checked you know a boat is elsewhere without needing to tell the checker that it was there earlier.

[dmr]

Well the pub at Pewsey isn't a bad one to be stuck outside....however can see why you could be concerned if not sighted! Of course when you buy your Thames License at Reading would give you additional support!

 

For all those who are concerned about not being logged enough below is an example of a 'overnight mooring log'. 1 page per month and IF the "powers that be" send you a strongly worded email about non compliance then you have a bit of evidence to back up your reply!

 

mooring log.JPG

 

 

 

Am sure others have much better ideas but a simple solution for what should be a simple problem!

 

 

 

 

I don't really worry too much, in a typical year there is usually plenty of additional evidence of movement.

Thames licence

Diesel Sales (though I doubt anybody would want to go through the paper records)

Harecastle / Liverpool Link/ Anderton lift

Maybe a dry docking

Trading at a market or festival

 

As for keeping a log....

A few lines of "what we did today", a photo, and a note of the location is much more enjoyable when you read it back a year or two later. I strongly feel that any log should primarily be for us and not for CaRT. If you take a photo on the iPad you can arrange for that to go straight into the diary, and maybe the location too. The way software is heading I reckon in a couple of years the iPad will do the whole lot automatically using a couple of sensors and artificial intelligence, except for the location most days are pretty similar...........

 

Wake up with Hangover

Back to bed

Wake up feeling better

Cruise lots of miles and lots of locks

Walk dog

Dog rolls in s**t

Dog in shower

Eat

Try to stay in

Go to pub.

 

................Dave

[spadefoot]

OK so restrict it to 5000. How many cases do you hear of in one year? Not counting long running sagas which spread over a period just counting the year it first came to CRT's notice.

Well, I hear of half a dozen or so, but I can't see any relevance in your question.

How many does it actually happen to would be more relevant. If just one boater loses their licence due to poor management of a badly thought out system, then that is too many.

[spadefoot]

With the new T&Cs, they are now.

I must admit, I don't keep up with the rules on boats with Home Moorings, but I thought there were just 3 relevant ones;

1. The boat never has to leave Home mooring.

2. The boat never has to be at the Home mooring.

3. The boat mustn't stay on the same spot (other than it's Home mooring) for more than 14days in a row.

Are there more?

[Alan de Enfield]

I was suggesting to Mike a way that the system could be tweaked to provide the necessary information without a major rewrite .. if you only record what you see and you know when each site was checked you know a boat is elsewhere without needing to tell the checker that it was there earlier.

 

I do understand what you are saying, but until the system realises that if a boat is not logged - it is not 'there'.

 

The way the system appears to have been written is that a boat remains logged at wherever it was last logged until it is seen again, whereupon it transposes instantly (do not pass go, do not collect £200) to the new location.

 

Until the 'if its not logged, it is not there' line can be written into the system the errors will continue.

[MissMax]

Always offer tea and crumpet to any tired and frazzled looking boaters

(Black tea one sugar please)

[Alan de Enfield]

I must admit, I don't keep up with the rules on boats with Home Moorings, but I thought there were just 3 relevant ones;

1. The boat never has to leave Home mooring.

2. The boat never has to be at the Home mooring.

3. The boat mustn't stay on the same spot (other than it's Home mooring) for more than 14days in a row.

Are there more?

 

Yes - have a look at the new T&Cs - the primary one being that a HMer must now cruise when away from a home mooring.

 

3. Boats with a Home Mooring

3.1 You must cruise on the Waterways whilst you are away from the Home Mooring (save for any period when you leave the Waterways or when the Boat is lawfully moored at another mooring site)..

 

Also written into the new T&Cs is that C&RT can pass onto anyone they feel like your personal details, and they can board your boat whenever they like.

 

Compare these conditions (and many more) to the old (pre 2015) conditions.

 

7.7 You agree that:

(i) we can board the Boat, and/or enter any land you own or occupy which is adjacent to the Boat, in order to affix or place on the Boat, correspondence, contractual or statutory notices or court papers; and

(ii) we can come on board the Boat to inspect it where we need to check you meet these Conditions and we can cross the Boat for the purpose of accessing any adjacent boat that cannot reasonably be accessed from the bank. We will give you reasonable notice if we consider it is practical to do so.

7.8 You agree that we may provide your relevant personal details including your contact details such as your name and address to any person (or the insurer of any person) who we believe has a reasonable interest in an incident or alleged incident involving the Boat which will generally be the case where for example personal injury or damage to property may have occurred.

7.9 You agree that where we believe you have failed to comply with the Conditions, we may exchange information relating to you and/ or the Boat with third parties who are assisting us in managing the situation such as contractors, mooring providers, individuals or organisations with a legitimate interest or duty in exchanging information about you.

 

NABO did a thorough line-for-line comparison of the new & old T&Cs when they came out for 'consultation' and gave the implication of each of the changes - if youy are interested then it may be worth your time reading it up on the NABO website.

[Horace42]

 

I would refer to CRT and ask them politely, as that's the approach more likely to yield positive results.

If you were a CRT grunt, would you rather deal with a pleasant customer, or a rude one full of his own sense of entitlement?

I quite agree. A polite and tactful approach would work wonders - where to say you was somewhere else at the time would probably be the end of the matter - considering recent posts have implied that a single sighting is not enough evidence to build a court case anyway.

 

I was reacting to the question that I took to imply an officious rejection of an alibi and a threat of ensuing court action - in which case a blunt response might have been appropriate in the circumstance, albeit there are many ways of wording a letter to avoid personal offence.

[Mike Todd]

It is a problem to report a negative,

 

If for a specific location there is (say) only one boat there, then either :

 

1) By default the other 32,998 boats are not there, or,

2) You list the other 32,998 boats that are not there.

 

The C&RT system (either computer or manual based) seems to be unable to grasp that if a boat is not there, it is somewhere else, as it is currently, "a boat is always where it was last seen until it is seen again", which is crazy.

But obtaining the 'absent' data can realistically - as explained - be done for a small number of cases for which the sightings generate a prima facie case to investigate. With boats on the move - even a little - there is no sightings system than can guarantee to be accurate since the loggers move around and may easily miss a boat.

[Mike Todd]

 

I do understand what you are saying, but until the system realises that if a boat is not logged - it is not 'there'.

 

The way the system appears to have been written is that a boat remains logged at wherever it was last logged until it is seen again, whereupon it transposes instantly (do not pass go, do not collect £200) to the new location.

 

Until the 'if its not logged, it is not there' line can be written into the system the errors will continue.

sadly, without major improvements - the system is tristate, not binary. It can only reliably say when a boat is 'there'. The absence of a log does not reliably say that it was not there - it could either be that the logger missed a boat or that it was a short distance away (but not another 'place') where the logger did not go. If a boat is logged as somewhere else then it can reliably say that it was not at the first place, otherwise the state is indeterminate. (tristate)

[Dharl]

 

I don't really worry too much, in a typical year there is usually plenty of additional evidence of movement.

Thames licence

Diesel Sales (though I doubt anybody would want to go through the paper records)

Harecastle / Liverpool Link/ Anderton lift

Maybe a dry docking

Trading at a market or festival

 

As for keeping a log....

A few lines of "what we did today", a photo, and a note of the location is much more enjoyable when you read it back a year or two later. I strongly feel that any log should primarily be for us and not for CaRT. If you take a photo on the iPad you can arrange for that to go straight into the diary, and maybe the location too. The way software is heading I reckon in a couple of years the iPad will do the whole lot automatically using a couple of sensors and artificial intelligence, except for the location most days are pretty similar...........

 

Wake up with Hangover

Back to bed

Wake up feeling better

Cruise lots of miles and lots of locks

Walk dog

Dog rolls in s**t

Dog in shower

Eat

Try to stay in

Go to pub.

 

................Dave

 

agree that much more enjoyable looking back at a diary at where you have been and done then a more formal record! On a share boat we have adaily diary which was started off to keep a track of any maintaince done by the owners as much as anything else. But certainly on the first few evenings afloat it is nice to sit back with a glass or two of red and see where our fellow owners have taken 'our' boat!

[dogless]

I am happy to accept the present flawed system, as any improvement would undoubtedly cost more.

 

In eleven years cruising for 9 months each year, we've only been contacted twice re a possible over stay. On both occasions C&RT (or their equivalent) had accurate sightings, but lacked the movement data that went inbetween.

 

On both occasions my explanation was accepted without resorting to angry words or producing proof.

 

Rog

[alan_fincher]

If the OP's boat was logged twice at Stone, three weeks apart, is there any record of which way it was pointing on each occasion?

 

 

No. Just the boat number is recorded at a location when logged.

 

And the record is based on an entire kilometre length, usually, so if it is anywhere on the same kilometre length, pointing either way, or even if actually moving along the canal in that length, there will be no difference in the record from if it were recorded at exactly the same length of piling, without having moved at all.

 

This is why I believe it is completely unreasonable to suggest based solely on the fact that a boat is recorded at (say) a 3 week interval with no recorded sightings elsewhere, that it may be a potential overstay.

If they want to do this they need to have far more data to prove it was actually there throughout, rather than somewhere else

 

It is a pointless waste of resource to raise frequent alerts for potential overstays that clearly are not, and the boat owner concerned should not (IMO) have to "satisfy the board" in cases where "the board's" data isn't complete enough to prove anything.

 

And to answer Arthur Marshall's point, no, I am not privy to how many licence holders this actually affects, but one hears enough to know it is a relatively frequent, rather than infrequent occurrence.

[spadefoot]

 

That's why I suggest they record a ficticious boat at each location .... the presence of that boat on its own means there are no other boats at the location.

 

If you aren't recorded at a location when someone else (including the dummy boat) then you are somewhere else .... maybe being recorded at a different location, maybe not being recorded - but you are not overstaying where you haven't been recorded.

I can see what you're getting at, but it makes no sense in practise. "each location" surely means every bit of towpath where it's possible to moor a boat. That's getting on for 2000miles.

[spadefoot]

 

Yes - have a look at the new T&Cs - the primary one being that a HMer must now cruise when away from a home mooring.

 

3. Boats with a Home Mooring

3.1 You must cruise on the Waterways whilst you are away from the Home Mooring (save for any period when you leave the Waterways or when the Boat is lawfully moored at another mooring site)..

 

Also written into the new T&Cs is that C&RT can pass onto anyone they feel like your personal details, and they can board your boat whenever they like.

 

Compare these conditions (and many more) to the old (pre 2015) conditions.

 

7.7 You agree that:

(i) we can board the Boat, and/or enter any land you own or occupy which is adjacent to the Boat, in order to affix or place on the Boat, correspondence, contractual or statutory notices or court papers; and

(ii) we can come on board the Boat to inspect it where we need to check you meet these Conditions and we can cross the Boat for the purpose of accessing any adjacent boat that cannot reasonably be accessed from the bank. We will give you reasonable notice if we consider it is practical to do so.

7.8 You agree that we may provide your relevant personal details including your contact details such as your name and address to any person (or the insurer of any person) who we believe has a reasonable interest in an incident or alleged incident involving the Boat which will generally be the case where for example personal injury or damage to property may have occurred.

7.9 You agree that where we believe you have failed to comply with the Conditions, we may exchange information relating to you and/ or the Boat with third parties who are assisting us in managing the situation such as contractors, mooring providers, individuals or organisations with a legitimate interest or duty in exchanging information about you.

 

NABO did a thorough line-for-line comparison of the new & old T&Cs when they came out for 'consultation' and gave the implication of each of the changes - if youy are interested then it may be worth your time reading it up on the NABO website.

That's brilliant.

3.1 You must cruise your boat unless it's moored. P.S. ignore that if your boat is not on the Waterways.

 

Will have to assume that "cruising" does not mean travelling slowly along the canal in the hope of soliciting some casual sex.

 

Mind you, it does put the mockers on, towing water-skiers, doing donuts in a winding hole for a laugh, entering a tug-of-war at an Historic-boat rally, and helping out a fellow boater by towing him off a sandbank.

[KevMc]

I can see what you're getting at, but it makes no sense in practise. "each location" surely means every bit of towpath where it's possible to moor a boat. That's getting on for 2000miles.

 

Apparently the use kilometer lengths to record position .. each spotter/ tracker would click to say they are in a particular length and each boat found there, if your boat isn't there, it simply must be elsewhere, so you have moved.

[spadefoot]

 

Apparently the use kilometer lengths to record position .. each spotter/ tracker would click to say they are in a particular length and each boat found there, if your boat isn't there, it simply must be elsewhere, so you have moved.

That makes more sense but I think the kilometre length thing is being taken wrongly. As far as I understand it, the position of a boat is taken to the nearest kilometre, the towpath isn't divided up into kilometre sections. There are parts where the canal takes a big loop, you can move a couple of miles along the canal but still find yourself within a kilometre of your previous position.

[MtB]

That's brilliant.

3.1 You must cruise your boat unless it's moored. P.S. ignore that if your boat is not on the Waterways.

 

Will have to assume that "cruising" does not mean travelling slowly along the canal in the hope of soliciting some casual sex.

 

Mind you, it does put the mockers on, towing water-skiers, doing donuts in a winding hole for a laugh, entering a tug-of-war at an Historic-boat rally, and helping out a fellow boater by towing him off a sandbank.

 

 

 

'Cruising' nowadays seems to mean moving one kilometre once a fortnight. Hardly onerous is it?

[alan_fincher]

......the towpath isn't divided up into kilometre sections.

 

Wrong - that is exactly what they do,

[spadefoot]

 

Wrong - that is exactly what they do,

I'll take your word for it. Mind you, I took the word of the bloke what told me otherwise too. Anything for a quiet life, me.

[alan_fincher]

I'll take your word for it. Mind you, I took the word of the bloke what told me otherwise too. Anything for a quiet life, me.

 

If you request your sightings data, you can see exactly what they record.

 

However they don't always get it right.

 

Even with a boat on its home mooring, it can, and sometimes does, get entered at a nearby functional location, not where it actually is.

[spadefoot]

 

 

 

'Cruising' nowadays seems to mean moving one kilometre once a fortnight. Hardly onerous is it?

Hardly worth starting the engine for. Just over 70metres a day. 3 or 4 boat lengths.

Does it have to be a different kilometre each time? Insert cheesy, smiley thing here.