Filling gas bottles

[nicknorman]

But if you had hired the car onto someone else during the hire period?

Again that would be a breach of contract, but presuming I returned the car at the end of the hire period, I haven't stolen it. Anyway I don't think we are talking about refilling gas bottles to re-hire to someone else, we are talking about refilling for personal use.

[Paul C]

Hiring a car and not giving it back isn't classed/treated as theft. Its treated as a breach of contract regarding the detail of the return date/time.

[Guest]

Hiring a car and not giving it back isn't classed/treated as theft. Its treated as a breach of contract regarding the detail of the return date/time.

So if I hired a car, and didn't return it, what would happen to me? Serious question.

[Paul C]

So if I hired a car, and didn't return it, what would happen to me? Serious question.

 

You'd be given some arbitary extension period, then the hire firm would contact the police and tell them what happened, the car's details would go on the ANPR system and eventually you'd be stopped by the police for TWOC (not theft).

[Guest]

So if I hired a car, and didn't return it, what would happen to me? Serious question.

You would get nicked for stealing it. Because at the end of the contract your are required to return it and their is a specific criminal offence regarding taking a motor vehicle without the owners consent.

 

its therefore not comparable.

 

Your contract with Calor effectively just keeps rolling on until you return the cylinder or Calor require you to.

 

You don't get nicked for filling the hire care with fuel.

[MtB]

Again that would be a breach of contract, but presuming I returned the car at the end of the hire period, I haven't stolen it. Anyway I don't think we are talking about refilling gas bottles to re-hire to someone else, we are talking about refilling for personal use.

 

 

I found myself wondering what happens at the end of one's calor contract.

 

Is the hirer required to return the bottle on expiry or are they permitted to keep it ad infinitum?

 

I don't really buy the theft argument if the re-filling is being done within the hire period. After the hire period there might be an argument that keeping the bottle if theft regardless of whether the hirer is in the habit of refilling it.

 

The fact that Calor don't demand the bottles back at the end of the contract doesn't necessarily mean they aren't entitled to them back. They could probably report them as stolen just like the hire car if not returned in a timely manner, should they ever want to make an issue of it.

[churchward]

Well it clearly isn't theft of the bottle since you have been given it by calor. Yes with a contract that says you can't refil it (presumably) and if you are in default of that contract they are entitled to ask for it back. Only if you failed to give it back after a court ordered you to, would it be theft (or more likely, contempt of court).

Incorrect Calor do not "give you" the bottle in the sense that you now own it. Calor at all times retain ownership of the bottle. they loan you the bottle and you pay a deposit for it and then can exchange it when empty for a refilled one.

[furnessvale]

 

You'd be given some arbitary extension period, then the hire firm would contact the police and tell them what happened, the car's details would go on the ANPR system and eventually you'd be stopped by the police for TWOC (not theft).

In those circumstances, it is highly likely the charge would be theft.

 

Simply because TWOC exists to cover some circumstances around taking a motor vehicle, it does not follow that a car cannot be stolen outright.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

Edited August 12, 2016 by furnessvale

[churchward]

 

You'd be given some arbitary extension period, then the hire firm would contact the police and tell them what happened, the car's details would go on the ANPR system and eventually you'd be stopped by the police for TWOC (not theft).

TWOC is a specific form of theft as defined in the 1968 Theft Act (section 12). You could still be charged with normal theft of course if the conditions of that can be met TWOC is easier to prove in court in the circumstance of a vehicle.

Edited August 12, 2016 by churchward

[Jim Riley]

Still not convinced I have entered into any contract with my bottles. When have I agreed to this contract? I found the bottles, I simply swap an empty for a full one and pay, no copy of contract is provided.

Yes they belong to calor, they can have them back at any time, even with my cheap gas in, so I'm not depriving them of their property, that is not my intent.

[MtB]

Still not convinced I have entered into any contract with my bottles. When have I agreed to this contract? I found the bottles, I simply swap an empty for a full one and pay, no copy of contract is provided.

Yes they belong to calor, they can have them back at any time, even with my cheap gas in, so I'm not depriving them of their property, that is not my intent.

 

 

Ah yes, this is another point I meant to make above. I too have at least six gas bottles I have acquired with boats, been given etc.

 

None has contracts in the first place, let alone expired ones. I suspect I'm in breach of something or other by even having them but I'm not sure what. Receiving stolen good perhaps?

[nicknorman]

I found myself wondering what happens at the end of one's calor contract.

 

Is the hirer required to return the bottle on expiry or are they permitted to keep it ad infinitum?

 

I don't really buy the theft argument if the re-filling is being done within the hire period. After the hire period there might be an argument that keeping the bottle if theft regardless of whether the hirer is in the habit of refilling it.

 

The fact that Calor don't demand the bottles back at the end of the contract doesn't necessarily mean they aren't entitled to them back. They could probably report them as stolen just like the hire car if not returned in a timely manner, should they ever want to make an issue of it.

There is no time limit on the hire, you hire it until you no longer want it, then you can get your deposit back although I suspect you'd need to show the original hire document to prove you hadn't nicked the bottle.

Incorrect Calor do not "give you" the bottle in the sense that you now own it. Calor at all times retain ownership of the bottle. they loan you the bottle and you pay a deposit for it and then can exchange it when empty for a refilled one.

They give it to you for safekeeping as part of the hire agreement. They don't give it to you such that you then own it. The English word "give" does not necessarily imply transfer of ownership. So yes I agree with your point, albeit a rather obvious point!

[Guest]

There is no time limit on the hire, you hire it until you no longer want it, then you can get your deposit back although I suspect you'd need to show the original hire document to prove you hadn't nicked the bottle.

You do have to have the original paperwork.

 

And the ammount you get back proportionately reduces as time goes by, ultimately to a big fat zero.

 

Correction - it reduces proportionately down to 25% of the initial charge after 7 years or longer.

Edited August 12, 2016 by MJG

[nicknorman]

Still not convinced I have entered into any contract with my bottles. When have I agreed to this contract? I found the bottles, I simply swap an empty for a full one and pay, no copy of contract is provided.

Yes they belong to calor, they can have them back at any time, even with my cheap gas in, so I'm not depriving them of their property, that is not my intent.

You would have done had you acquired the bottles legitimately. There is a form to be filled out, deposit to be paid if you walk into a calor retailer and want gas without having an empty to swap.

[MtB]

There is no time limit on the hire, you hire it until you no longer want it, then you can get your deposit back

 

Got a reference for that?

 

My understanding is you don't get it back unless your agreement is less than five years old, then you get a pro rata refund.

(Tapering to nothing after the full five years, that is.)

[nicknorman]

Got a reference for that?

 

My understanding is you don't get it back unless your agreement is less than five years old, then you get a pro rata refund.(Tapering to nothing after the full five years, that is.)

Ok should have said "some of your deposit back" - "some", as said, tapering to zero.

[MtB]

Ok should have said "some of your deposit back" - "some", as said, tapering to zero.

 

 

But the interesting bit is are you suppose to retun the bottles at the end of five years anyway, and pay a new five year hire charge?

 

I know nobody does, but I bet the hire agreement says you must!

[nicknorman]

But the interesting bit is are you suppose to retun the bottles at the end of five years anyway, and pay a new five year hire charge?

 

I know nobody does, but I bet the hire agreement says you must!

No I'm sure it doesn't say that.

[Phil Ambrose]

Again that would be a breach of contract, but presuming I returned the car at the end of the hire period, I haven't stolen it. Anyway I don't think we are talking about refilling gas bottles to re-hire to someone else, we are talking about refilling for personal use.

And that is the point, Calor and all other suppliers are very specific that their bottles are only filled by them irrespective of who will be using the gas.

Regarding deposits, I have never paid a deposit, I guess that's because I have an account.

Phil

[Guest]

But the interesting bit is are you suppose to retun the bottles at the end of five years anyway, and pay a new five year hire charge?

 

I know nobody does, but I bet the hire agreement says you must!

No it doesn't.

 

The agreement is actually for 50 years.

 

And as I have already posted it goes down to 25% refundable after 7 years.

 

The information is readily available on Calor's web site for anybody who wishes to check.

[nicknorman]

And that is the point, Calor and all other suppliers are very specific that their bottles are only filled by them irrespective of who will be using the gas.

Regarding deposits, I have never paid a deposit, I guess that's because I have an account.

Phil

Yes it is a contractual issue and failure to comply is a breach of contract. A civil matter. Not theft, which is a criminal matter.

[Iain_S]

 

LPG as a fuel for vehicles has definitely not taken off as some expected it to, however who knows what will happen as diesel use becomes increasingly 'demonised' and people still need powerful torquey engines, we might yet see a resurgence.

 

We might indeed. Especially as addng LPG to the air intake of diesel engines can provide a valuable power boost, and not only reduce fuel consumption and cost, but cut emissions, especially particulates.

 

http://www.mercuryfuelsystems.com/

[mayalld]

Still not convinced I have entered into any contract with my bottles. When have I agreed to this contract? I found the bottles, I simply swap an empty for a full one and pay, no copy of contract is provided.

Yes they belong to calor, they can have them back at any time, even with my cheap gas in, so I'm not depriving them of their property, that is not my intent.

So, you found some bottles, belonging to Calor, and you say that you will return them if they ever ask for them.

 

Google "Stealing by finding"

 

You know that the bottles belong to Calor, but you have appropriated them for your own purposes. You have stolen them.

Well it clearly isn't theft of the bottle since you have been given it by calor. Yes with a contract that says you can't refil it (presumably) and if you are in default of that contract they are entitled to ask for it back. Only if you failed to give it back after a court ordered you to, would it be theft (or more likely, contempt of court).

The contract specifies what you may do with the bottle. It grants some rights to you and reserves some rights to them as owner.

 

The instant you take it upon yourself to start refilling the bottle yourself, you have assumed the rights of the owner, and that is theft

 

Read my earlier post, and tell me exactly which element of theft is missing.

[nicknorman]

The instant you take it upon yourself to start refilling the bottle yourself, you have assumed the rights of the owner, and that is theft.

This is completely untrue, you are just making it up.

[Paul C]

I think you'd need to prove the intention to permanently deprive. Since Calor rent the bottles out in something of an open-ended contract (there is no end date on the rental.....and indeed the amount of deposit you have returned depreciates) it would be difficult to prove your intention to permanently deprive. (It would be easier if you cut up the bottle eg made it into a stove etc). I suppose there is a weak argument somewhere regarding the not returning it after "a bottle's worth of use" (for its safety check etc) could be theft but in no way does it reach the "permanent" criteria.