Filling gas bottles

[Guest]

We have hired in the winter and the Alde gas boilers certainly give the gas a good caning.....luckily it's normally covered i the hire cost.

[Phil Ambrose]

 

What number do you call? Is it delivered by a local stockist, or by a Calor depot of some kind? Presumably you have to be in to take delivery - How close to a particular time can you pin them down to - e.g. is it to within an hour, or morning or afternoon, or sometime during a day?

 

For me to take advantage of a delivery service I would have to call them, then move my boat to the towpath for the duration of the delivery time frame, and remain on board until they come.

 

Currently, when a bottle runs out, I take a trip to the local marina which takes about 40 minutes if I am in a rush. At the same time I can stock up with coal and diesel if necessary. It might cost me an extra three quid for a bottle, but the timing, and length of time involved, is in my control - plus I get a little trip out on the boat

I call a Calor depot who deliver twice a week, as we are marina based they ring me when making a drop on the other side of the basin, I row across at my leisure, I have a account so make payment at end of month. Reckon if your on the tow path it's harder to sort these types of things out.

Phil

[churchward]

It is illegal in the UK to self refill a rented gas bottle (e.g. a Calor bottle)

 

I can see the temptation though for a liveaboard who gets through a lot of 13KG bottles though. I would at least want an adapter with an overfill device unlike the one shown in the OP.

 

You can buy refillable portable bottles but this seems more popular on the continent.

[Guest]

It is illegal in the UK to self refill a rented gas bottle (e.g. a Calor bottle)

 

 

 

Is it actually illegal though? As in there is a specific law against it, or is it just contrary to your rental agreement?

 

(Genuine question)

 

I'm just curious because I know a lot of caravanners do this.

[ditchcrawler]

The risk is overfilling. The percentage to which the bottles are filled is quite important apparently for safety factors not to be compromised.

 

One possibility is If you over full it the little plastic over-pressure release disc will pop out and there will be a controlled release to atmosphere of the contents of the bottle over about 45 seconds.

 

Then you'll have wasted your £15

 

And more seriously, you'll be subjected to some pretty serious questioning from the HSE police about what the hell you thought you were doing.

And also filled your gas locker with gas

[churchward]

 

Is it actually illegal though? As in there is a specific law against it, or is it just contrary to your rental agreement?

 

(Genuine question)

 

I'm just curious because I know a lot of caravanners do this.

Yes it is.

 

Not least it could even be criminal e.g. you could be charged with theft as you have demonstrated an intent to permanently deprive Calor (for example) of its property. Being contrary to the rental agreement is not such light matter as your "just" would imply. The bottle remains the property of the company. Whether or not this actually happens is another matter I suppose.

 

It is of course legal to refill a refillable bottle you own. If folk use a lot of gas I expect it would be worth buying one as the savings over calor exchange bottles would soon pay for the expense of buying one of the refillable systems. Easier with a caravan or motor home also as you can have a permanent inlet for the refill nozzle system like you would on an LPG car.

[Guest]

Yes it is.

 

Not least it could even be criminal e.g. you could be charged with theft as you have demonstrated an intent to permanently deprive Calor (for example) of its property. Being contrary to the rental agreement is not such light matter as your "just" would imply. The bottle remains the property of the company. Whether or not this actually happens is another matter I suppose.

 

It is of course legal to refill a refillable bottle you own. If folk use a lot of gas I expect it would be worth buying one as the savings over calor exchange bottles would soon pay for the expense of buying one of the refillable systems. Easier with a caravan or motor home also as you can have a permanent inlet for the refill nozzle system like you would on an LPG car.

 

To clarify I used 'just' as in quantifying what possibly would be dealt with as a civil matter as opposed to the more serious criminal proceedings that could be brought against you.

 

So to be clear then (again a genuine question not a challenge) there isn't a specific offence, they would have to prove an incidental one of theft?

with a caravan or motor home also as you can have a permanent inlet for the refill nozzle system like you would on an LPG car.

 

ISTR Biggles who rarely posts here these days used to have that exact arrangement in his home built MH.

[churchward]

 

To clarify I used 'just' as in quantifying what possibly would be dealt with as a civil matter as opposed to the more serious criminal proceedings that could be brought against you.

 

So to be clear then (again a genuine question not a challenge) there isn't a specific offence, they would have to prove an incidental one of theft?

 

ISTR Biggles who rarely posts here these days used to have that exact arrangement in his home built MH.

You could face criminal or civil action. As I say it is possible to be charged with theft which is a criminal offence. just because there is not a specific law doesn't mean it isn't illegal. for example there is no specific law that says you should not steal Pens but you could still be prosecuted if you did.

 

There are also issues of HSE about refilling the Calor type bottles on forecourts etc.

 

This website is worth a look at.

 

http://www.gasit.co.uk/leisure-gas-refillable-products/7-gas-pipes-pigtails-and-vapour-tank-accessories/on-bottle-bayonet-fillpoint-p446.html

 

They of course sell refillable bottles so aren't neutral in the matter you may say but it does lay out the issue.

 

Calor themselves have this to say.

 

https://www.calor.co.uk/news/calor-warns-about-unlawful-filling-of-lpg-cylinders-at-autogas-refuelling-sites/

Edited August 11, 2016 by churchward

[Richard10002]

You could face criminal or civil action. As I say it is possible to be charged with theft which is a criminal offence. just because there is not a specific law doesn't mean it isn't illegal. for example there is no specific law that says you should not steal Pens but you could still be prosecuted if you did.

 

I'd say it's contractual, so refilling is merely a breach of contract. The police wouldnt be interested in the fact that you have deprived Calor of money they could have been earning. In a similar way, every unpaid contractual debt is of no interest to the police, nor is non payment of rent, each of which are depriving the owner of monies due.

 

You can continue to think of it as theft, but there is no chance of it being treated as such by those who have the power to do so.

[Paul C]

If you're going to buy a gas bottle for refilling, you could buy something other than Calor - maybe the lesser companies have less resources to try crack down on illegal refilling.

[Guest]

I'd say it's contractual, so refilling is merely a breach of contract. The police wouldnt be interested in the fact that you have deprived Calor of money they could have been earning. In a similar way, every unpaid contractual debt is of no interest to the police, nor is non payment of rent, each of which are depriving the owner of monies due.

 

You can continue to think of it as theft, but there is no chance of it being treated as such by those who have the power to do so.

I'm inclined to say the same TBH.

 

I thought the definition of theft was to permanently deprive sombody of something. You aren't really doing that here, or if you are of what?

[churchward]

I'm inclined to say the same TBH.

 

I thought the definition of theft was to permanently deprive sombody of something. You aren't really doing that here, or if you are of what?

How about the gas bottle that they own?

 

You are potentially permanently depriving them of their property ie the gas cylinder that they own and you rent from them as part of the supply of gas. When you buy gas from Calor (or one of the other companies) you do NOT own the bottle it comes in. So, taking it to refill it is you keeping the bottle for your own use and depriving them of their property.

 

I'd say it's contractual, so refilling is merely a breach of contract. The police wouldnt be interested in the fact that you have deprived Calor of money they could have been earning. In a similar way, every unpaid contractual debt is of no interest to the police, nor is non payment of rent, each of which are depriving the owner of monies due.

 

You can continue to think of it as theft, but there is no chance of it being treated as such by those who have the power to do so.

Please yourself but if you are taking the bottle for your own use a gas bottle you do not own and they do it is potentially more than a contractual issue. You are also contravening UK Health & Safety Regulations, weights and Measure regs (possibly) and consumer safety regs.

 

The likelyhood of prosecution or not does not make something legal.

 

The thing is it is not just me that says it is not legal (or indeed safe) to self fill a rented (Calor) gas bottle as I have shown web addresses of organisations who agree with my point. Your opinion differs and that's fine but it is just that an opinion.

Edited August 11, 2016 by churchward

[Guest]

How about the gas bottle that they own?

 

You are potentially permanently depriving them of their property ie the gas cylinder that they own and you rent from them as part of the supply of gas. When you buy gas from Calor (or one of the other companies) you do NOT own the bottle it comes in. So, taking it to refill it is you keeping the bottle for your own use and depriving them of their property.

 

Please yourself but if you are taking the bottle for your own use a gas bottle you do not own and they do it is potentially more than a contractual issue. You are also contravening UK Health & Safety Regulations, weights and Measure regs (possibly) and consumer safety regs.

 

The likelyhood of prosecution or not does not make something legal.

 

The thing is it is not just me that says it is not legal (or indeed safe) to self fill a rented (Calor) gas bottle as I have shown web addresses of organisations who agree with my point. Your opinion differs and that's fine but it is just that an opinion.

Sorry I don't buy the 'theft' angle but agree with the H&S one. Simply because if I have a Calor cylinder but for whatever reason don't ever take it back to be exchanged I am very confident I will never in a million years be convicted of it's theft, it will just languish unused in my shed. If in the meantime I get it refilled I still haven't stolen it, I have just refilled it. If Calor ask for it back I would just return it.

 

To me it's a no brainier really.

Edited August 11, 2016 by MJG

[Phil Ambrose]

I was a commercial manager for Elf-Flexigas at a filling plant in Boston and for all those believe that any LPG supplier be it Calor or any other will not successfully prosecute for theft are deluded.

Each cylinder has a value far in excess of any deposit, it does not take a genius to work that the loss of numbers of cylinders will make a dent in profits and as we all know protection of profits is paramount.

I have posted this insider info before but thought it worth repeating again in the light of the content of this thread.

In short Churchward is correct

Phil

[Guest]

I was a commercial manager for Elf-Flexigas at a filling plant in Boston and for all those believe that any LPG supplier be it Calor or any other will not successfully prosecute for theft are deluded.

Each cylinder has a value far in excess of any deposit, it does not take a genius to work that the loss of numbers of cylinders will make a dent in profits and as we all know protection of profits is paramount.

I have posted this insider info before but thought it worth repeating again in the light of the content of this thread.

In short Churchward is correct

Phil

So if I never ever take back the two I have now have, including the one in my caravan and the spare in my garage I will get done for theft?

 

Do you have any links to succesful prosecutions because this simply sounds like utter nonsense to me.

[Ray T]

So if I never ever take back the two I have now have, including the one in my caravan and the spare in my garage I will get done for theft?

 

Do you have any links to succesful prosecutions because this simply sounds like utter nonsense to me.

 

What about travellers who, at times, leave gas bottles where ever they have stayed? Do Gas companies chase and prosecute them?

 

Also when councils clear the site do they get a refund on the bottles even though they never purchased them in the first place? I'v often wondered about that.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Ray T

[RLWP]

https://www.calor.co.uk/news/illegal-handlingscrapping-of-calor-gas-cylinders/

 

Richard

[Guest]

https://www.calor.co.uk/news/illegal-handlingscrapping-of-calor-gas-cylinders/

 

Richard

I think that link came up earlier.

 

I don't think it proves anybody was convicted of theft of a cylinder does it?

[RLWP]

http://hvpmag.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/3759/UKLPG_hails_cylinder_theft_prosecution_as_positive.html

 

Richard

[Guest]

What about travellers who, at times, leave gas bottles where ever they have stayed? Do Gas companies chase and prosecute them?

 

Also when councils clear the site do they get a refund on the bottles even though they never purchased them in the first place? I'v often wondered about that.

To get a refund on a cylinder from Calor you need to produce the original rental agreement so I doubt it TBH.

[Guest]

http://hvpmag.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/3759/UKLPG_hails_cylinder_theft_prosecution_as_positive.html

 

Richard

400? And clearly stolen rather than the situation being discussed here.

 

Taking out a rental agreement for a couple but not returning them is what we are talking about.

 

This forum sometimes propels itself to new levels of ridiculousness......

[churchward]

Sorry I don't buy the 'theft' angle but agree with the H&S one. Simply because if I have a Calor cylinder but for whatever reason don't ever take it back to be exchanged I am very confident I will never in a million years be convicted of it's theft, it will just languish unused in my shed. If in the meantime I get it refilled I still haven't stolen it, I have just refilled it. If Calor ask for it back I would just return it.

 

To me it's a no brainier really.

Not using is not an issue given the nature of the transaction there is no time limit on how long you have the bottle in those circumstances.

 

However, if you decide to self refill you have shown an intent to deprive the owner (Calor or whoever) of the bottle of its property. A very different scenario.

 

Even if you then did offer to give it back when challenged the intent to deprive is not circumvented fully. Otherwise anybody who stole something could just say as a defence "OK it's a fair cop I will give it back and we will say no more".

 

It seems just as straight forward to me too.

Edited August 11, 2016 by churchward

[RLWP]

400? And clearly stolen rather than the situation being discussed here.

 

Taking out a rental agreement for a couple but not returning them is what we are talking about.

 

This forum sometimes propels itself to new levels of ridiculousness......

 

It proves someone has been prosecuted for theft of cylinders - which is what you asked.

 

Court cases don't seem to google easily, and I haven't found a story about a smaller theft - yet

 

Richard

[churchward]

400? And clearly stolen rather than the situation being discussed here.

 

Taking out a rental agreement for a couple but not returning them is what we are talking about.

 

This forum sometimes propels itself to new levels of ridiculousness......

So if you steal 2 bottles of wine rather than 400 it is OK? I agree the courts process may take different view in the sentencing but theft all the same.

[Guest]

It proves someone has been prosecuted for theft of cylinders - which is what you asked.

 

Court cases don't seem to google easily, and I haven't found a story about a smaller theft - yet

 

Richard

Not quite, if you scroll back a bit you will see that it was suggested filling them could result in being prosecuted for theft.

 

Clearly stealing a load of unused or even used cylinders meets that criteria.

So if you steal 2 bottles of wine rather than 400 it is OK? I agree the courts process may take different view in the sentencing but theft all the same.

I don't accept that filling two empty wine bottles is theft of the bottles, this being your argument as I understand it.