Hertford Union Locks

[StephenA]

There's quite an interesting debate going on over at Canalplan about the names of the three locks on the Hertford Union.

 

Canalplan uses the names given in Edwards so they are Old Ford Locks. Other sites (including wikipedia) use these names but it looks like they've used Canalplan as their source. C&RT refer to them as Top, Middle and Bottom Locks, Hertford Union (most of the time.. .they also refer to them as Old Ford Locks)

 

I've found that Stanford's map of 1872 refers to the middle lock as Wick Lane Lock...

 

So does anyone have any other sources which either are contemporary to Edwards or that pre-date Canalplan going on-line (so say prior to 2002) - examples being old guide books etc, that might shed some light on the subject?

Edited July 29, 2016 by StephenA

[alan_fincher]

1974 edition Of "The Canals Book", (a standard canal guide, in its time), calls them the Old Ford Locks.

[Scholar Gypsy]

So that would mean there are locks called "Old Ford" on the Regents, the Hertford Union, and the Lee Navigation ... ?

[alan_fincher]

So that would mean there are locks called "Old Ford" on the Regents, the Hertford Union, and the Lee Navigation ... ?

 

Yes,

 

That is how I understand it to be, and certainly it is not a new invention, as I can find it in sources over 40 years old.

[Derek R.]

Bradshaw's Lengths and Levels refers to "Old Ford Lock" in 1832.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lengths_and_Levels_To_Bradshaw%27s_Maps/From_Actual_Survey_(1832)

[magpie patrick]

 

Yes,

 

That is how I understand it to be, and certainly it is not a new invention, as I can find it in sources over 40 years old.

 

As an (admittedly amatuer) historian I would regard over 40 years old as "not that old" **- Nicholson's guides first came out in 1971, 45 years ago, and renamed several things with names that have since stuck. Even the straight line guides that preceded them had some interesting innovations in the nomenclature department.

 

** this is NOT a reflection on my age or that of my associates!

[alan_fincher]

As an (admittedly amatuer) historian I would regard over 40 years old as "not that old" **- Nicholson's guides first came out in 1971, 45 years ago, and renamed several things with names that have since stuck. Even the straight line guides that preceded them had some interesting innovations in the nomenclature department.

 

I'm not claiming that "over 40 years is that old", but am specifically answering the question asked (!)

 

So does anyone have any other sources which either are contemporary to Edwards or that pre-date Canalplan going on-line (so say prior to 2002) - examples being old guide books etc, that might shed some light on the subject?

 

I think that British Waterways actually bear responsibility for renaming some locks, (not these ones though), in relatively recent years, and I'm not convinced it is because the compilers of the guide books have already done so, and BW have followed their lead. In some cases I think it is the other way around.

[StephenA]

Bradshaw's Lengths and Levels refers to "Old Ford Lock" in 1832.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lengths_and_Levels_To_Bradshaw%27s_Maps/From_Actual_Survey_(1832)

 

I think that's the Old Ford on the Regents, not the three Old Ford on the Hertford, or the Old Ford on the Lea...

I think that British Waterways actually bear responsibility for renaming some locks, (not these ones though), in relatively recent years, and I'm not convinced it is because the compilers of the guide books have already done so, and BW have followed their lead. In some cases I think it is the other way around.

 

We know that quite a few sites on line have based names on the ones in Canalplan. We created a few place names ourselves (Wood End corner being one as far as we can tell ) which we've now seen used on other sites...

Edited July 30, 2016 by StephenA

[Richard West]

My Bradshaw's 1904, mentions "Old Ford Three Locks" and names them Upper, Middle and Lower.

[magpie patrick]

So, to confuse yourself, you can go through (in descending order)

 

Old Ford Locks (which is now just one lock), Old Ford Upper Lock, Old Ford Middle Lock, Old Ford Lower Lock and Old Ford Locks (which are two locks side by side, you only use one of them)

[pete harrison]

We know that quite a few sites on line have based names on the ones in Canalplan. We created a few place names ourselves (Wood End corner being one as far as we can tell ) which we've now seen used on other sites...

I believe this to be the biggest downside of the Internet where one website 'pinches' information from another website, and this very often leads to miss-information / misinterpretation / misunderstanding / tomfoolery and lies being perpetuated as fact as the more websites that copy each other gives the impression of credibility as they all state the same.

 

This is a big problem with 'historic' narrow boat websites were some absolute rubbish has been published and then copied. I spend quite a bit of my time attempting to correct the errors that enthusiasts have picked up and believed from these websites, even though most of these websites have now closed down

[Scholar Gypsy]

Slightly off-topic - a rather good history of the Ordnance Survey (sorry, can't find it today, I think it may be on the boat) points out that many place names in the UK were only codified when the first edition was produced (a major project, roughly 1820-1870).

 

Many names (and spellings) of places and features were determined by asking the local clergyman, who was supposed to be better educated than most, and would also have access to parish records.

[StephenA]

I believe this to be the biggest downside of the Internet where one website 'pinches' information from another website, and this very often leads to miss-information / misinterpretation / misunderstanding / tomfoolery and lies being perpetuated as fact as the more websites that copy each other gives the impression of credibility as they all state the same.

 

This is a big problem with 'historic' narrow boat websites were some absolute rubbish has been published and then copied. I spend quite a bit of my time attempting to correct the errors that enthusiasts have picked up and believed from these websites, even though most of these websites have now closed down

 

When we've given names to places it because they were an obvious thing to look out for but had no apparent name, Wood End corner being one, Roburite Bend and Greaves Wood turn being two others.

 

The internet has led to all sorts of crazy situations - especially when it comes to lazy journalists.

[Derek R.]

Both Pete and Stephen have touched on a fact that much of what has been written and passed down through history, has been from one person/author/journalist taking previous records as being true, thereby perpetuating some actual facts - and many myths which have been repeated to the point of becoming such an accepted norm that any who dare to challenge said records is apt to be derided by the majority to the point of heresy. All the historians agree - so it must be so. Not necessarily. The history of certain wars is a classic example. Who writes the history of war? - the victors. Straight away there is cause for bias.

[magpie patrick]

Reference back to one source isn't a recent problem, and in some instances happens because there IS only one source, or at least only one published. With regards to names of locks, there tend to be at least three for some locks, possibly four, the name they are known by now, the name CRT have on the nameplate, the name they were known by to the original canal company, and the name the working boatmen would have known them by - this last one often isn't written down anywhere.

 

A very minor example of this copying an error occurs first in Bradshaw 1904, when the settlement of Maestermyn, on what is now the Lllangollen Canal, is mis-spelt Maesterfyn: this is then copied in several editions of Edwards 50 and more years later. Thankfully no-one copied the far more serious errors made by Priestley in 1831, otherwise Nicholson's might be describing the scenic run from Stourport to Leominster!

Edited July 30, 2016 by magpie patrick

[Pluto]

Some bridge names have also changed over time. On the L&LC, bridges always had names, the current numbering dating from around 1970, followed by locks being numbered at a later date. I have great difficulty when people use the numbering system when asking questions about locks or bridges on the canal (much as I do with motorway emergency signs which just use junction numbers, which I don't remember, rather than the road numbers at the junction, which I can remember). I have compiled a list of L&LC bridge names from historical documents which can be found here, http://www.mikeclarke.myzen.co.uk/Bridges.pdf

[pearley]

Reference back to one source isn't a recent problem, and in some instances happens because there IS only one source, or at least only one published. With regards to names of locks, there tend to be at least three for some locks, possibly four, the name they are known by now, the name CRT have on the nameplate, the name they were known by to the original canal company, and the name the working boatmen would have known them by - this last one often isn't written down anywhere.

 

I've always called the lift bridge on the Huddersfield Broad 'Locomotive' Bridge. Nicholson calls it Turnbridge Loco Lift Bridge, Pearson calls it Locomotive, Richlow calls it Locomotive, the Calder Navigation Society guide calls it Turnbridge but with a note at the bottom of the page saying 'or Locomotive ' but to cap it all, when I last passed that way BW had erected a sign calling it Quay Street Bridge. Edited August 2, 2016 by pearley

[Tacet]

My pre-decimal copy of the British Waterways straight-blue-line booklet does not name the three Hertford Union locks - and I can't recall any names being used. Having Old Ford Locks on both the Lee and Regent's Canal seems quite enough. Of course, Old Ford is a local area so it is easy to see the reference if not the name

 

But to be fair, the junction of the Lee and Herford Union was known as "plastic bag corner" in the 1970's - although there is no mention in any book I have seen.

[Scholar Gypsy]

Slightly off-topic - a rather good history of the Ordnance Survey (sorry, can't find it today, I think it may be on the boat) points out that many place names in the UK were only codified when the first edition was produced (a major project, roughly 1820-1870).

 

Many names (and spellings) of places and features were determined by asking the local clergyman, who was supposed to be better educated than most, and would also have access to parish records.

 

Here's a couple of pages on toponymy, the study of place names, from the book I mentioned. Sorry not a very good scan.

 

toponymy.PDF

[mayalld]

 

When we've given names to places it because they were an obvious thing to look out for but had no apparent name, Wood End corner being one, Roburite Bend and Greaves Wood turn being two others.

 

The internet has led to all sorts of crazy situations - especially when it comes to lazy journalists.

Looking at Canalplan on the HNC you've clearly used the maps produced by the society during restoration, which contain some HIGHLY spurious names invented in the office one day with no historical basis.

 

Lock 8W, Bywith Lock is pure invention (it is actually an anagram of "Whitby", the surname of one of the restoration team)

 

Almost forgot Lock 37E, Smudger's Lock. Smudger was the office cat!

Edited August 2, 2016 by mayalld

[StephenA]

Looking at Canalplan on the HNC you've clearly used the maps produced by the society during restoration, which contain some HIGHLY spurious names invented in the office one day with no historical basis.

 

Lock 8W, Bywith Lock is pure invention (it is actually an anagram of "Whitby", the surname of one of the restoration team)

 

Almost forgot Lock 37E, Smudger's Lock. Smudger was the office cat!

 

Whoever put that data in used them... a lot of the canals in Canalplan weren't put in by either myself or nick