when will they ever learn?

[peterboat]

its a miracle my amp hours have come back the sun is shining and they have come back to sunbathe on my solar panels hooray

[RLWP]

its a miracle my amp hours have come back the sun is shining and they have come back to sunbathe on my solar panels hooray

 

Be quiet you fool! You'll be overrun by electriacs coming to look at your meters and telling you your wiring is wrong

 

Put the kettle on

 

Richard

[Dalslandia]

232kWh

635Wh dayly

26,5Wh hour

 

My fridge say 110W and freezer 220W full size 230V

 

 

Coffee?

Edited February 15, 2016 by Dalslandia

[John V]

No Phil, it is not about the "really smart clique" it is about using the correct term so as to avoid confusion. Confusion for the chap using the wrong term as well as those trying to help. If you are going to let "amps /hr" go, should we also let it go when someone says volts instead of amps or vice versa? How about the chap who always says "yes" when he means "no" and vice versa? The point is that, especially in this forum, we communicate by the written word, we miss all non-verbal communication, and that makes using the correct words all the more important. Especially when it is trivlally easy to get it right. Using wrong words is just counter-productive, it is not a badge of honour unless (perhaps) you are a rebellious teenager.

 

This was one of the problems that lead to me having a go at someone about a 230v inlet on his boat, it was worsened by his calling a

 

232kWh

635Wh dayly

26,5Wh hour

13,25Wh 50%

8Wh 30%

 

Coffee?

 

average 26.5w when cycling for 50% of the time on and 50% off = 53w when running 0w when idle

 

Cream ?

[Dalslandia]

 

This was one of the problems that lead to me having a go at someone about a 230v inlet on his boat, it was worsened by his calling a

 

 

average 26.5w when cycling for 50% of the time on and 50% off = 53w when running 0w when idle

 

Cream ?

 

black, got it.

what W does it say? when running?

 

just checked my old fridge and freezer, it say on the inside! 100W resp. 140W, so except for startup they don't draw more continuous running. The newer Samsung say 110W resp. 220W when defrosting.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Dalslandia

[WotEver]

 

black, got it.

what W does it say? when running?

 

just checked my old fridge and freezer, it say on the inside! 100W resp. 140W, so except for startup they don't draw more continuous running. The newer Samsung say 110W resp. 220W when defrosting.

resp? What am I missing?

[John V]

There are no manufacturers figures at all either in the leaflets or on the compressor.

 

First figures from test gear

 

first cycle

fridge freezer empty and at room temperature

 

initial run 14 minutes

initial consumption 0.665 Amps @: 218V (I am at the end of a long bit of damp string)

This gradually reduced over the time period to a consumption of

0.52A @ 219V

The kwh meter reading was 0.01 kwh (this is not particularly accurate at these low figures)

 

I will now transfer fresh/frozen food from the original unit and take more readings later

[Dalslandia]

resp? What am I missing?

 

respective, but it was to looong to type

There are no manufacturers figures at all either in the leaflets or on the compressor.

 

First figures from test gear

 

first cycle

fridge freezer empty and at room temperature

 

initial run 14 minutes

initial consumption 0.665 Amps @: 218V (I am at the end of a long bit of damp string)

This gradually reduced over the time period to a consumption of

0.52A @ 219V

The kwh meter reading was 0.01 kwh (this is not particularly accurate at these low figures)

 

I will now transfer fresh/frozen food from the original unit and take more readings later

 

So, something like 150W max, look on the inside?

[John V]

first cycle

fridge freezer empty and at room temperature

initial run 14 minutes

initial consumption 0.665 Amps @: 218V (I am at the end of a long bit of damp string)

This gradually reduced over the time period to a consumption of

0.52A @ 219V

The kwh meter reading was 0.01 kwh (this is not particularly accurate at these low figures)

 

I will now transfer fresh/frozen food from the original unit and take more readings later

 

contents of old unit now transferred (incidentally no labels inside relating to consumption)

 

second run

0.6A @ 214V

reducing to

0.51A @ 215V

switch off after 4 minutes

kwh meter still on 0.01 kwh (as I said not very good on small readings)

[Paul C]

 

Just purchased a fridge freezer and the only consumption figures available was the (for my purpose) rather useless 232 kwh/annum

 

The fridge manufacturers have no incentive to provide other figures, since 99.999% of their customers will be plugging it into a socket which could quite safely supply a 20A peak if it wanted to (for a very brief time); and happily supply 13A for ever. Boaters are an exception who need to run an inverter and size it right down to within a squeak of proper operation.

[Phil Ambrose]

No Phil, it is not about the "really smart clique" it is about using the correct term so as to avoid confusion. Confusion for the chap using the wrong term as well as those trying to help. If you are going to let "amps /hr" go, should we also let it go when someone says volts instead of amps or vice versa? How about the chap who always says "yes" when he means "no" and vice versa? The point is that, especially in this forum, we communicate by the written word, we miss all non-verbal communication, and that makes using the correct words all the more important. Especially when it is trivlally easy to get it right. Using wrong words is just counter-productive, it is not a badge of honour unless (perhaps) you are a rebellious teenager.

Trying to Keep It Simple and as brief as possible, chap has a electric outboard and a battery so if he wants to know how long his battery will last he can glean that from the KISS statement I posted. The chap is not fussed about how many electrons are passing nor how long it takes, all he needs or indeed wants to know is how long will his battery last. Not everybody wants chapter and verse all the time.

Phil

Edited February 15, 2016 by Phil Ambrose

[Paul C]

Actually, that's an excellent consumption figure to be given - one of the easiest to calculate.

 

232/365 gives us 0.636 kWh per day. Or 63.6 Ah per day.

 

So this shows us that it's a pretty inefficient fridge/freezer.

 

Tony

 

In theory its possible to write (in Javascript) a little calculator which could convert kWh/annum into other figures (peak startup power required, "on" power, Ah per day), given a few sensibly set (but tweakable) constants:

 

Inverter efficiency

Duty cycle

Peak as a factor over steady

voltage - 12V or 24V system

etc

etc

 

Hmmmm......would be an interesting little page.....amongst others.....

[Dalslandia]

 

In theory its possible to write (in Javascript) a little calculator which could convert kWh/annum into other figures (peak startup power required, "on" power, Ah per day), given a few sensibly set (but tweakable) constants:

 

Inverter efficiency

Duty cycle

Peak as a factor over steady

voltage - 12V or 24V system

etc

etc

 

Hmmmm......would be an interesting little page.....amongst others.....

 

Temperature inside and outside the box, and how often the door is opened effect the draw also

 

found this

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/06/heat-pumps-work-miracles/

​

Edited February 15, 2016 by Dalslandia

[John V]

I will take readings for 24 hours and see what comes up, from that. Now knowing the normal current when running, it should be possible to work out roughly the duty cycle.

[WotEver]

One thing we know for sure is that the 'real' figures will be much better than my worst case estimates.

 

Tony

[Murflynn]

Trying to Keep It Simple and as brief as possible, chap has a electric outboard and a battery so if he wants to know how long his battery will last he can glean that from the KISS statement I posted. The chap is not fussed about how many electrons are passing nor how long it takes, all he needs or indeed wants to know is how long will his battery last. Not everybody wants chapter and verse all the time.

Phil

it's not about KISS, it's about talking and writing common sense instead of a load of b*ll*x.

 

if you can't or don't want to understand then you are to be pitied ......... why? - because if you do the maths correctly then it is checkable and can be understood by all. If you get your units wrong then it is just plain meaningless and unhelpful.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Murflynn

[Phil Ambrose]

it's not about KISS, it's about talking and writing common sense instead of a load of b*ll*x.

 

if you can't or don't want to understand then you are to be pitied ......... why? - because if you do the maths correctly then it is checkable and can be understood by all. If you get your units wrong then it is just plain meaningless and unhelpful.

And its Boll#x to assume everybody has your obvious desire to have everything correct to the Nth degree.

It was a sort of rolls of the tongue sort of mantra, How long will my battery last? 1 amp per hour per pound of thrust, was easy for the average Joe to get his head round. My wife only knows a battery as a big black thing but she could work it out how long her electric O/B would last given a 110 batt and a 55lb thrust motor.

Phil

Edited February 15, 2016 by Phil Ambrose

[John V]

it's not about KISS, it's about talking and writing common sense instead of a load of b*ll*x.

 

if you can't or don't want to understand then you are to be pitied ......... why? - because if you do the maths correctly then it is checkable and can be understood by all. If you get your units wrong then it is just plain meaningless and unhelpful.

 

 

I could be very rude about this post, I shall refrain however and merely point out that there are many people who are perfectly capable of being trained in electrical engineering but consider it a waste of their time.

They simply want a basic rule of thumb while they put their intellect and effort into what they consider to be important things rather than the realm of the artisan.

 

eta Electrical engineering is not the pinnacle of human achievement

Edited February 15, 2016 by John V

[dmr]

Lets look at this more constructively, Amps per hour is not a totally right on unit, but when not expert people use this unit I reckon I know exactly what they....

3 amps per hour is.......

A generally continuous draw of 3 amps

or 3 amp-hour every hour (which is of course 3 amps)

 

They could say "I take 3 amps out of my batteries" but unless they qualified this as continuous the forum would criticise them.

Likewise 3 amps per hour is very different to 3 amp-hours (unless we only consider a single hour).

3 amps per hour = 72 amp-hours per day.

 

...............Dave

[Murflynn]

Electrical Engineering certainly isn't a pinnacle (and I ain't one), but not being willing to understand that amps per hour is a meaningless unit demonstrates an obstinacy to understand basic GCSE level physics and maths. And of course Phil's rule of thumb is still b*ll*x.

 

If Phil means to say that one pound of thrust consumes a quantity of energy equal to one amp-hour each hour, then he should say so, but it would be easier to say that one amp produces one pound of thrust (assuming we fix the voltage of course). Why introduce the hour in the first place? I'm sure your wife understands that 55lbs requires 55amps, which will run a 110ah battery down to 55ah within one hour. You are the one making it over-complicated.

 

It does not help the average punter if you confuse him by introducing fictional and meaningless units.

Lets look at this more constructively, Amps per hour is not a totally right on unit, but when not expert people use this unit I reckon I know exactly what they....

3 amps per hour is.......

A generally continuous draw of 3 amps

or 3 amp-hour every hour (which is of course 3 amps)

 

They could say "I take 3 amps out of my batteries" but unless they qualified this as continuous the forum would criticise them.

Likewise 3 amps per hour is very different to 3 amp-hours (unless we only consider a single hour).

3 amps per hour = 72 amp-hours per day.

 

...............Dave

no.

3 amps = 72 amp-hours per day.

amps per hour is not a unit at all, why try to justify it?

 

where did you lot go to school?

[WotEver]

And how the hell did "amperage" ever find its way into the dictionary? It's CURRENT.

 

There is no need for the world to make up a word when one already exists that covers it perfectly well.

 

Next thing you know we're going to follow the Yanks by referring to soddering a connection.

 

AngryTone

[John V]

 

It does not help the average punter if you confuse him by introducing fictional and meaningless units.

 

I was not suggesting that we did, however if someone asking a question uses the wrong terminology within their question it is simple enough to ask " do you mean......"

Being dogmatic does not help, if you really want to screw them up why not use coulombs and joules

[Phil Ambrose]

Electrical Engineering certainly isn't a pinnacle (and I ain't one), but not being willing to understand that amps per hour is a meaningless unit demonstrates an obstinacy to understand basic GCSE level physics and maths. And of course Phil's rule of thumb is still b*ll*x.

 

If Phil means to say that one pound of thrust consumes a quantity of energy equal to one amp-hour each hour, then he should say so, but it would be easier to say that one amp produces one pound of thrust (assuming we fix the voltage of course). Why introduce the hour in the first place? I'm sure your wife understands that 55lbs requires 55amps, which will run a 110ah battery down to 55ah within one hour. You are the one making it over-complicated.

 

It does not help the average punter if you confuse him by introducing fictional and meaningless units.

 

no.

3 amps = 72 amp-hours per day.

amps per hour is not a unit at all, why try to justify it?

 

where did you lot go to school?

Aha, you see, you do understand but my rule of thumb mantra rolls of the tongue so much better , as I said the average Joe is not interested in anything other than "how long will my battery last"

I'm not the one making it overcomplicated, nor sm I the one writing posts in a derogatory manner and calling into question peoples education, you are in danger of sinking lower into the realms of personal insults (shakes head and wanders off)

Phil

[Paul C]

And its Boll#x to assume everybody has your obvious desire to have everything correct to the Nth degree.

It was a sort of rolls of the tongue sort of mantra, How long will my battery last? 1 amp per hour per pound of thrust, was easy for the average Joe to get his head round. My wife only knows a battery as a big black thing but she could work it out how long her electric O/B would last given a 110 batt and a 55lb thrust motor.

Phil

 

I see an issue with someone asking for help from others, when they decline to help themselves.....

[Murflynn]

Aha, you see, you do understand but my rule of thumb mantra rolls of the tongue so much better , as I said the average Joe is not interested in anything other than "how long will my battery last"

I'm not the one making it overcomplicated, nor sm I the one writing posts in a derogatory manner and calling into question peoples education, you are in danger of sinking lower into the realms of personal insults (shakes head and wanders off)

Phil

goodbye.