South East Visitor Moorings Consultation - Batchworth, Berkhamsted, Marsworth & Braunston

[jenlyn]

So do I take it that you are against any sort of control over moorings at all?

 

If so, I should point out that if it was as you perhaps wish and you being a new boater, you would have found no-where to moor in the locations you wanted because someone else would have got there first and have claimed that chunk of towpath for themselves in perpetuity. Or perhaps you just want rules that allow you to do what you like whilst keeping everyone else under control?

 

Anyway to be honest, regardless of what you want, the majority do want mooring controls so that everyone can have a fair crack of the whip. It's called "sharing nicely"! If sharing nicely doesn't suit you, perhaps you should find a new way of life?

Could you give us some figures regarding this majority please?

I know you can't of course, so I will suggest to green duck that anything Nick says should be taken with a rather large dose of salt.

Some of it is worth a laugh, but that's just about all it can amount to.

[Tuscan]

 

 

Getting back to the consultation, CRT has apparently recorded and analysed what type of boat (trade,hire, marina based and CC) that has been moored at these locations but not whether the moorings were full at the time of the sighting. as this is not clearly stated one assumes that there was normally space to moor as Alan and others have mentioned. This has also been my personal experience. So the desire to change the stay times presumeably is linked to a desire to change the mix of boats (trade, hire, marina based and CC) that use these moorings.

[GreenDuck]

So do I take it that you are against any sort of control over moorings at all?

 

If so, I should point out that if it was as you perhaps wish and you being a new boater, you would have found no-where to moor in the locations you wanted because someone else would have got there first and have claimed that chunk of towpath for themselves in perpetuity. Or perhaps you just want rules that allow you to do what you like whilst keeping everyone else under control?

 

Anyway to be honest, regardless of what you want, the majority do want mooring controls so that everyone can have a fair crack of the whip. It's called "sharing nicely"! If sharing nicely doesn't suit you, perhaps you should find a new way of life?

There doesn't need to be control of moorings other than in London it's a lie and a scam created by CRT designed to control sheeple with fear of lack of!

What I have issue with is a private property company hiding under the guise of a charitable organisation threatening the homes of people without being clear and open completely by providing their own names and addresses so when they serve a section 8 notice for the pathetic idea that someone has not moved their boat enough those victims can go and knock on their doors for explanation, an explanation why they would as human beings choose to treat another human being that way.

I object to the system not people sharing!

If it's about money then fine say it's about money admit to being a slave to their ideals but if it's because of a BS "system" you sell up and go and live with them as you are most certainly not one of the many true boats I meet out on the cut who are just about sick of the bull s...

I said I am new out on the cut I've lived aboard nearly two years and owned boats for over ten years.

Edited February 4, 2016 by GreenDuck

[kris88]

What I have issue with is a private property company hiding under the guise of a charitable organisation threatening the homes of people.

We'll said, but may I add.

"By bending and breaking the law, to suit there own ends."

If boaters have to abide by the legislation, so does CRT. They are trying to make it up as they go along at the moment. What amazes me is the number of boaters, who are quite happy to support them in this. Wake up people before this lifestyle you enjoy is gone forever.

 

Regards kris

Edited February 4, 2016 by kris88

[Alan de Enfield]

You obviously haven't been talking to Estate Agents, Bridal Shops, Nail Bars, Funeral Directors, etc., whose trade would obviously be greatly increased if only passing boaters could moor in the town!

 

Chris G

 

I suppose that the local Funeral Directors would get trade from 'passing boaters'

[jenlyn]

There doesn't need to be control of moorings other than in London it's a lie and a scam created by CRT designed to control sheeple with fear of lack of!

What I have issue with is a private property company hiding under the guise of a charitable organisation threatening the homes of people without being clear and open completely by providing their own names and addresses so when they serve a section 8 notice for the pathetic idea that someone has not moved their boat enough those victims can go and knock on their doors for explanation, an explanation why they would as human beings choose to treat another human being that way.

I object to the system not people sharing!

If it's about money then fine say it's about money admit to being a slave to their ideals but if it's because of a BS "system" you sell up and go and live with them as you are most certainly not one of the many true boats I meet out on the cut who are just about sick of the bull s...

I said I am new out on the cut I've lived aboard nearly two years and owned boats for over ten years.

A bit of research can get you most of the info on individuals at CRT. Its easy to get hold of.

[Guest]

There doesn't need to be control of moorings other than in London it's a lie and a scam created by CRT designed to control sheeple with fear of lack of!

What I have issue with is a private property company hiding under the guise of a charitable organisation threatening the homes of people without being clear and open completely by providing their own names and addresses so when they serve a section 8 notice for the pathetic idea that someone has not moved their boat enough those victims can go and knock on their doors for explanation, an explanation why they would as human beings choose to treat another human being that way.

I object to the system not people sharing!

If it's about money then fine say it's about money admit to being a slave to their ideals but if it's because of a BS "system" you sell up and go and live with them as you are most certainly not one of the many true boats I meet out on the cut who are just about sick of the bull s...

I said I am new out on the cut I've lived aboard nearly two years and owned boats for over ten years.

Or you could just do what loads of other people do and stick to the rules.

 

We know from a number of people who post on here some find it incredibly difficult to grasp this extremely simple concept, however equally we know some manage it with minimal difficulty.

[jenlyn]

Or you could just do what loads of other people do and stick to the rules.

 

We know from a number of people who post on here some find it incredibly difficult to grasp this extremely simple concept, however equally we know some manage it with minimal difficulty.

As green duck suggests, that works both ways. CRT needs to "Stick to the rules" as well.

A great deal of the issues I deal with are in fact stemming from CRT taking the p!ss. (especially of late).

[Guest]

As green duck suggests, that works both ways. CRT needs to "Stick to the rules" as well.

A great deal of the issues I deal with are in fact stemming from CRT taking the p!ss. (especially of late).

I actually don't disagree, it cuts both ways.

[kris88]

Or you could just do what loads of other people do and stick to the rules.

 

We know from a number of people who post on here some find it incredibly difficult to grasp this extremely simple concept, however equally we know some manage it with minimal difficulty.

Or you could do what some people do, give up and bye a caravan. Each to there own I suppose

 

 

Regards kris

Edited February 4, 2016 by kris88

[magictime]

There doesn't need to be control of moorings other than in London

 

Hang on a minute. Fair enough, there's an argument to be had about whether CRT's interpretation of the 14 day rule and the requirement to 'bona fide navigate' is correct, and whether their enforcement process is appropriate. But since when is it controversial that there are some popular spots on the system (including outside London) where it makes sense to restrict mooring to 48 hours (or whatever) in order that boaters visiting those spots while out cruising have a better chance of finding a convenient mooring space?

 

If there's some question as to whether that applies in this particular case, then again, fair enough. But it seems way too strong to say there's no need to control/restrict moorings anywhere outside London.

[jenlyn]

 

Hang on a minute. Fair enough, there's an argument to be had about whether CRT's interpretation of the 14 day rule and the requirement to 'bona fide navigate' is correct, and whether their enforcement process is appropriate. But since when is it controversial that there are some popular spots on the system (including outside London) where it makes sense to restrict mooring to 48 hours (or whatever) in order that boaters visiting those spots while out cruising have a better chance of finding a convenient mooring space?

 

If there's some question as to whether that applies in this particular case, then again, fair enough. But it seems way too strong to say there's no need to control/restrict moorings anywhere outside London.

The problem is evolving. CRT in some cases are developing hotspots. They are doing so by not maintaining and allowing the ability to moor in some areas.

They even asked in a recent survey, for people to suggest hotspots.

This is all fine, but by their own admission, they will not be maintaining the bank, or dredging up to it unless it is a vm.

It's a very twisty path, and in my view a step towards gentrification of the canals.

[Guest]

Or you could do what some people do, give up and bye a caravan. Each to there own I suppose

Regards kris

Again, I have no idea what that has to do with anything Kris, you seem somewhat fixated with my new leisure pursuit.

 

My post stands, if you stick by the rules most people find they have nothing to fear from CRT, though as has been pointed out CRT should play ball too.

 

Of course if people stretch things and push the rules they do find CRT will catch up with them, as indeed you yourself found.

[jenlyn]

Again, I have no idea what that has to do with anything Kris, you seem somewhat fixated with my new leisure pursuit.

 

My post stands, if you stick by the rules most people find they have nothing to fear from CRT, though as has been pointed out CRT should play ball too.

 

Of course if people stretch things and push the rules they do find CRT will catch up with them, as indeed you yourself found.

I've posted this on another thread, and given your comments above, I feel it's relevant to post here as well.

"Just a reminder of what happened in London a few years back.

In 2009-2010, the then EO for the area was instructing everyone on his idea of ccing. It involved a very small stretch of the system, and consequently saw many other boats arrive. (Why not, it was a good deal). People started to build their lives around the small cruising pattern suggested by the EO. (more people arived).

Kids were born, schools were arranged, jobs were found etc. (more people arrived).

2012-2013. Whoa says CRT. We have an overcrowding problem. We need to address this. The EO is made a supervisor for the area, and instructed to sort the overcrowding. He brings in New EO's with instructions to sort this mess out caused by these nasty boaters who are taking the pee.

Anyone see a pattern forming?

We are, where we are, but is history about to be repeated, has no one learnt anything?"

[nicknorman]

Fair enough Steve (in fact, one of your more lucid posts) but getting back to the point of the topic, I still maintain that the majority of boaters (especially bearing in mind that the majority of boaters are marina bound Sunday afternoon boaters) do want mooring controls. No I can't prove it but then neither can you prove anything you say, so that is not a helpful debating tactic.

 

It then is merely a question of the fine detail. The proposals from CRT don't seem draconian especially as there are miles of unregulated towpath (save the 14 days) in the vicinity. Perhaps it's not that deep at the sides but then that is what gang planks are for. Whether they are necessary is debatable but with the absence of hard fact from either side it is hard to say. If the debate gets sidetracked by the extremist fundamentalists who demand the right to do whatever they want (and stuff anybody else) then it is not going to help the cause because CRT will carry on carrying on whilst be bicker and ponder the ludicrous.

Edited February 4, 2016 by nicknorman

[jenlyn]

I am in no doubt that the Sunday afternoon boaters support mooring restrictions.(I don't have a huge issue with that). CRT are attempting to make these restrictions all year round, now I have an issue.

[Guest]

Two issues seem to be getting fudged here.

 

One is CRT's right to reduce mooring time restrictions in certain areas and the other is a boaters right to stay anywhere they like for as long as they like.

 

I think most sensible people would advocate the latter is a recipe for mayhem (in some areas at least) and the former needs to be kept an eye on and challenged if it's not felt to be necessary.

[alan_fincher]

Fair enough Steve (in fact, one of your more lucid posts) but getting back to the point of the topic, I still maintain that the majority of boaters (especially bearing in mind that the majority of boaters are marina bound Sunday afternoon boaters) do want mooring controls. No I can't prove it but then neither can you prove anything you say, so that is not a helpful debating tactic.

 

It then is merely a question of the fine detail. The proposals from CRT don't seem draconian especially as there are miles of unregulated towpath (save the 14 days) in the vicinity. Perhaps it's not that deep at the sides but then that is what gang planks are for. Whether they are necessary is debatable but with the absence of hard fact from either side it is hard to say. If the debate gets sidetracked by the extremist fundamentalists who demand the right to do whatever they want (and stuff anybody else) then it is not going to help the cause because CRT will carry on carrying on whilst be bicker and ponder the ludicrous.

 

Nick,

 

Provided a 14 day rule is enforced, what possible justification can you come up with for restricting moorings at a site to shorter stay times than that, unless evidence can be produced that on at least some of the busiest occasions those moorings are at capacity, or close to capacity.

 

Provided you, or anybody else, can generally turn up there and find a reasonable space without too much trouble, why should you, or anybody else, be concerned whether other boats moored there have been there one day or thirteen days?

 

If anybody's desire to stop at an available mooring is coloured by what boats are already moored at other points at that location, I would question whether they have picked the right choice of pastime, frankly. It is not reasonable to introduce restricted stay times, just to create moorings that are overall generally more empty than full, is it, surely?

 

EDIT:

 

As for describing these changes as"draconian", (or otherwise), I guess it is a question of individual judgement, but to me it doesn't actually seem a completely OTT description of trying to put in place 2 day stay times at a location that already rubs along perfectly OK with 14 day stay times

 

Edited February 4, 2016 by alan_fincher

[Tuscan]

Fair enough Steve (in fact, one of your more lucid posts) but getting back to the point of the topic, I still maintain that the majority of boaters (especially bearing in mind that the majority of boaters are marina bound Sunday afternoon boaters) do want mooring controls. No I can't prove it but then neither can you prove anything you say, so that is not a helpful debating tactic.

It then is merely a question of the fine detail. The proposals from CRT don't seem draconian especially as there are miles of unregulated towpath (save the 14 days) in the vicinity. Perhaps it's not that deep at the sides but then that is what gang planks are for. Whether they are necessary is debatable but with the absence of hard fact from either side it is hard to say. If the debate gets sidetracked by the extremist fundamentalists who demand the right to do whatever they want (and stuff anybody else) then it is not going to help the cause because CRT will carry on carrying on whilst be bicker and ponder the ludicrous.

If there is consistent evidence of these mooring being full then there is a case to be made that some short term moorings be created. Surely since there has been some 18 month of regular sightings ,apparently, you just need to demonstrate that this has been the case (all that's been logged is the number and license type of the boat not availability of mooring). Berkhamstead was I understand a popular spot during last years roving winter mooring permit so I hope these statistics were not included even if they may have contributed to local residents concerns about overstaying.

[nicknorman]

Alan and Tuscan, don't disagree with any of that. However there doesn't seem to be any hard evidence either way - ie that the moorings sometimes become congested, or that they never do. As has been pointed out I don't have a lot of first hand or recent experience of Berko but in the Midlands, with which I am familiar, it is normal to have some short term moorings in towns near the shops. As a percentage of the total towpath it is probably less than 1% so it doesn't impinge on people wanting to stay put for 14 days, but it does make it reasonably probable than one can stop for shopping, with the convenience of rings etc without having to walk too far.

 

With the proximity to London it would seem to me most unlikely that if there were no mooring restrictions in Berko except 14 days, that it would not routinely be pretty congested during the busy season. Of course over the winter period it is a different matter and in general I'm all for the relaxation of mooring restrictions then.

 

If there really isn't a problem with congestion (as seems to be being suggested) and if there really isn't an issue with nuisance (as has repeatedly been claimed) then just what is the motivation for these machinations. Do you think the council and CRT are just bored and looking for something to do?

[Tuscan]

Alan and Tuscan, don't disagree with any of that. However there doesn't seem to be any hard evidence either way - ie that the moorings sometimes become congested, or that they never do. As has been pointed out I don't have a lot of first hand or recent experience of Berko but in the Midlands, with which I am familiar, it is normal to have some short term moorings in towns near the shops. As a percentage of the total towpath it is probably less than 1% so it doesn't impinge on people wanting to stay put for 14 days, but it does make it reasonably probable than one can stop for shopping, with the convenience of rings etc without having to walk too far.

With the proximity to London it would seem to me most unlikely that if there were no mooring restrictions in Berko except 14 days, that it would not routinely be pretty congested during the busy season. Of course over the winter period it is a different matter and in general I'm all for the relaxation of mooring restrictions then.

If there really isn't a problem with congestion (as seems to be being suggested) and if there really isn't an issue with nuisance (as has repeatedly been claimed) then just what is the motivation for these machinations. Do you think the council and CRT are just bored and looking for something to do?

 

Possibly the statistics produced show that on average there were 31 boats a day spotted at Berkhamstead and 23 at Marsworth . Those of us that are familiar with the areas will know that there was in all probability no problem for any boater arriving.

 

I have just tried to go on the trusts web site - then to SE region and clicked on the consultation link which just sent me back to the website and not the consultation. Has anyone managed to get in?

[alan_fincher]

Not sure if this has already been directly linked to on here or not.....

From Berkhamsted Citizens Association Newsletter

The Berkhamsted Town Council-led Canal and River Partnership (on which the Berkhamsted Citizens Association is represented) believes the mooring time limit should be 2 days throughout the restricted area, all year round.

 

If you were actually genuinely interested in coming up with a situation that was going to increase trade in the town, why on earth would you press for an arrangement that would leave the town largely devoid of visiting boats for most of the year? This isn't even thinly disguised, is it?

If they were genuinely worried about "creating more space for boaters to moor up in order to visit the town", they would not have erected "No Mooring" signs throughout Canal Fields, taking away the possibility of people using both sides of this popular (and adequately wide) pound for moorings. They appear to want fewer moored boats, not more, or at least that is what their actions will result in.

The council is trying hard to get as many non boaters as they can completing this survey, which actually does no validation at all about the data you choose to enter about yourself. Again I would urge boaters not to just air any views they have on it on here, (positive or negative), but to get on and complete the survey. There is no requirement in doing so that you are a boater local to that area - you are free to express opinions on this as a principle, irrespective of where you normally do your boating.

[SUIGENERIS]

Thanks Alan for the posting.

 

I am a regular visitor to Foxton and when speaking to the proprietors of the pubs there, they seem fed up with having no boats around for their customers to gongoozle at. The visitor moorings are considerably empty of boats , and that I am sure is because of the VERY LARGE signage warning not to moor more that 24 hours, nor return too soon, nor to spend more than 14 days in a month at Foxton.

 

It's a shame as Foxton is a premier visitor location for Leicestershire, and the Foxton Inclined Plane Trust so badly needs loads of support, and if non boaters go there on a weekend day in the winter ( and many hundreds do) and there is only one or two boats about for them to watch and to add interest to the scene then there is a real clash of interests.

 

Cheers. Mick

[Tuscan]

The link on the CRT website for the SE Consultation via the CRT website doesn't work, I queried and was advised that it had been sent out to local boaters.

 

As these changes effect Braunston, Berkhamstead and Marsworth I am surprised that it has not been widely distributed.

 

Please go in via the link below , it's a survey monkey yes/no question takes 2 minutes. Please make your voice heard.

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/mooring-your-boat/south-east-visitor-moorings/south-east-visitor-mooring-consultation-january/february-2016

[GreenDuck]

Or you could just do what loads of other people do and stick to the rules.

 

We know from a number of people who post on here some find it incredibly difficult to grasp this extremely simple concept, however equally we know some manage it with minimal difficulty.

I'm a grown up I don't need rules made up by a self serving curropt idiots like the Tories you choose to blindly obey a bit like I don't need religion to live a sensible fair life having no negative effect on other human beings.

I have recently traveled from north to south the canals are damn empty all this nonsense is false propaganda designed to extort money from weak people who believe "the rules" are the Ten Commandments and can't be refuted.

I hardly ever moor up on pilings and usually moor on pins in the middle of nowhere, if I take my money into a town and spend money and stay 3 days rather than 2 that's perfectly reasonable as I am a genuine boater who moves not some idiot oversaying extensively running a generator all hours in between returning back to their mooring up the cut after giving genuine boaters a bad name.

We don't need rules to live on a boat chop wood carry shite and water and pay our way.

CRT use rules to hide the fact and scapegoat us for their behaviour.

The answer is simple place more piling mooring spots along the system so so called hot spots are watered down reducing impact.

Instead CRT fabricate a problem that don't exist!

Hence my answer in a watered down fashion is no jog on.