Charger / inverter choice confusion

[DavidExpert]

Hello,

 

My Mobitronic battery charger has just died so I'm faced with choosing a replacement.

 

As it happens, I was also intending swapping the existing 1500W Cherokee MSW inverter to a Pure Sine model.

 

It's been suggested that I get a Victron combined charger/inverter but that'll cost around £1,000 which is a lot, and I prefer separate components anyway.

 

Yet despite extensive reading on this forum and a lot of Googling, I'm still baffled as to what to get for both elements. Help!

 

For example, many people here have happily recommended a 30A Electroquest charger sold on Amazon and eBay for around £100-£115 (sometimes also branded Numax I believe?)

 

If I wanted a "brand" then a Victron Phoenix would be an option but again it's costly and I don't understand what I'd get buying that that I wouldn't get by buying their substantially cheaper "Blue Power 25A IP67" unit? It still charges with four stages etc

 

Equally, inverters. My battery bank's only 330Ah and I don't have a washing machine etc just a laptop really (maybe a microwave at some point) so I've been told to get a 1600VA Victron ... but sitting in a cupboard here I happen to have a 3kW "Sunshine Solar" inverter doing nothing.

 

Is it ridiculous to put that inverter in, even if I don't use the power (with a suitable upgrade to the battery cable and isolator switch, just in case).

 

And should I be terrified of a non-brand inverter setting me on fire?

 

Or shall I just run back to land screaming and sell the boat as all these decisions about things I've tried to read up on but still can't decide are doing my head in?!!

 

Thanks

David

[Alan de Enfield]

Regarding the inverter question :

 

I believe its a case of getting what you pay for.

 

The 'Chinese' cheap inverters have been known to burst into flames.

There are dozens of reviews on you tube of various makes of "dangerous Chinese inverters"

 

Example :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi2pm-KsdVg

 

Some folks have bought 'cheap' inverters and have had no problems at all.

 

Do your research so you can make an informed decision.

 

On the subject of 'size' a 'big' inverter will not use any more power ( or very little) than a smaller inverter.

[b0atman]

After seeing a friends inverter fail and have to be sent away for repair thus also losing his battery charger, I would always say don't put all your eggs in one basket, get separates. Regards the cheapies my inverter fitted by a previous owner and bought off Ebay burst into flames . I now have a Victron 3kw pure sine wave Inverter and a 50amp sterling battery charger both in excess of 7 years old and doing excellent work

[KJT]

We use Victron Phoenix combi charger/invertor equipment and have found it to be totally reliable over many years. Whether its worth the money of course is a different question. It does have a useful power boost feature if you temporarily need more power than shoreline alone can give you by adding the invertor capacity to that of the shoreline.

If you're uncertain about the differences between the Victron Phoenix unit versus the Blue Power one then I am sure a call to Onboard Energy at Springwood Haven marina at Nuneaton would clarify. They are main agents and are very helpful.

 

Ken

Edited November 10, 2015 by NB Ellisiana

[DavidExpert]

Thanks Alan. It's the research that's doing my head in. Some people say "fine no problems", others warn of Dire Consequences. I don't have the expertise to be confident with cheap stuff nor the budget to write a blank cheque :-(

I would always say don't put all your eggs in one basket. Regards the cheapies my inverter fitted by a previous owner and bought off Ebay burst into flames . I now have a Victron 3kw pure sine wave Inverter and a 50amp sterling battery charger both in excess of 7 years old and doing excellent work

Useful to know, thank you.

 

 

If you're uncertain about the differences between the Victron Phoenix unit versus the Blue Power one then I am sure a call to Onboard Energy at Springwood Haven marina at Nuneaton would clarify. They are main agents and are very helpful.

Terrific; thanks!

 

David

[DavidExpert]

Just to close this: have ordered the Victron Multiplus charger/inverter despite it being a combo, following excellent, very helpful discussion with Onboard Energy as suggested. They gave me a very decent price on it too, substantially better than a well known chandlery. Very impressed with OE so far.

 

Should be here tomorrow!

Regards

David

[nicknorman]

I think you've made the right decision and OE are good. Just to belatedly pick up on this point:

"Some people say "fine no problems", others warn of Dire Consequences."

 

It means that most of these cheap inverters are fine, a few go on fire. So,it depends on whether you will be one of the unlucky ones, or not. IMO not worth taking that risk.

[by'eck]

The subject of employing a Combi (combined inverter and charger) v using separate charger and inverter has been discuused before on this forum. There are pro's and cons with either. On the face of it avoiding all the eggs in one basket scenario by having separates seems a good choice but consider the following assuming you require both shore and battery derived AC distribution on your boat.

 

A Combi:

 

avoids the need for a complex AC selector switch arrangement and attendant wiring which could add unreliability

 

provides the necessary nominal neutral/earth strap automatically when inverter is running (ok some of the more expensive stand-alone ones do as well but far from all)

 

offer seemless auto switch over to maintain AC supply when shore power is lost

 

usually have inverter standby mode of some sort

 

the offerings from Victron and Mastervolt also provide:

 

power assist when shore power is limited

 

shore power draw limitation by reducing charger output

 

offer a second shore power pass through that is not supported by inverter to feed second charger or water immersion heater for example.

 

The reliability of Combi's and the economies of installation and purchase cost should also be considered when making the choice.

 

 

[nb Innisfree]

Just to close this: have ordered the Victron Multiplus charger/inverter despite it being a combo, following excellent, very helpful discussion with Onboard Energy as suggested. They gave me a very decent price on it too, substantially better than a well known chandlery. Very impressed with OE so far.

 

Should be here tomorrow!

Regards

David

Just be careful when connecting up, can't speak for later models but older combos don't have polarity protection, i.e. if battery polarity is connected in reverse It will go phut. Leave main fuse out until led indicates correct polarity then fit fuse before firing up.

[Keith M]

Most Victron units are dispatch with the battery configuration set up for AGM or Gel batteries

 

If using wet cells the float voltage will be at least 0.5 of a volt to high

 

Keith

[nb Innisfree]

Most Victron units are dispatch with the battery configuration set up for AGM or Gel batteries

 

If using wet cells the float voltage will be at least 0.5 of a volt to high

 

Keith

Don't you mean wet cells require higher voltage?

[Tiggs]

Put the inverter you have in and get a separate charger of a respectable brand.

[PeterG]

Or wet cells can accept a higher voltage?

[Phil Ambrose]

Put the inverter you have in and get a separate charger of a respectable brand.

I'm with Tiggs on this one, separates every time.

Phil

[nicknorman]

I'm with Tiggs on this one, separates every time.

Phil

I prefer the Combi approach. It all hangs together and just works, seamlessly. On the subject of failures, the important thing is to have backups for things. So if the charger packs up, I still have the engine 175A alternator. If the inverter packs up, I still have the Travelpower. If I have to send the whole Combi box away for repair, I still have mains power and 12v power from the engine so it would hardly be a catastrophe. So having backups is the important thing, whether you have to send away one or two elements of the system to be repaired at the same time is not such an issue.

[Keith M]

Don't you mean wet cells require higher voltage?

 

No wet cells have a lower float voltage around 13.2 volts

 

AGM and Gel 13.8 volts

 

Keith

I prefer the Combi approach. It all hangs together and just works, seamlessly. On the subject of failures, the important thing is to have backups for things. So if the charger packs up, I still have the engine 175A alternator. If the inverter packs up, I still have the Travelpower. If I have to send the whole Combi box away for repair, I still have mains power and 12v power from the engine so it would hardly be a catastrophe. So having backups is the important thing, whether you have to send away one or two elements of the system to be repaired at the same time is not such an issue.

 

The down side to this if there is a failure

 

An amount of re-wiring will be required

 

most owners would not be able to deal with sort of situation

 

Separates are the best way to go in my opinion

 

Comb's were an easy get out for the installers

 

Keith

[nicknorman]

 

The down side to this if there is a failure

 

An amount of re-wiring will be required

 

most owners would not be able to deal with sort of situation

 

Separates are the best way to go in my opinion

 

Comb's were an easy get out for the installers

 

Keith

True it would be necessary to connect the incoming and outgoing main together where the Combi was. But not too difficult surely, if one accepts that the owner is going to disconnect the device and reconnect it sometime later anyway.

 

I don't regard Combis as an installers get-out. They have advantages and disadvantages over separates. I happen to think that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

[Keith M]

True it would be necessary to connect the incoming and outgoing main together where the Combi was. But not too difficult surely, if one accepts that the owner is going to disconnect the device and reconnect it sometime later anyway.

 

I don't regard Combis as an installers get-out. They have advantages and disadvantages over separates. I happen to think that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

 

I feel that most owners would this this a difficult operation.

 

Firstly there is a significant cost saving when using an inverter / charger over separates

 

Also most installers would find installing separates correctly as difficult

 

Keith

[Sea Dog]

Good choice David, I don't think you'll go far wrong with Victron or Mastervolt kit. Buy the best, cry only once. Unfortunately, that's not always affordable, but there's more posts here starting "Help! My Sterling....“ than similar about Victron. Don't even start on the “I've just bought a Chinese wotsit on eBay and...":)

 

There are those who champion separate units for reasons stated, but there are many advantages to a Combi too and, personally, I'm with those who come down on the side of the integrated solution. But then, what do I know: I have electric windows in my car - now there's complexity that's bound to end in tears, apparently.

[Alan de Enfield]

My new yacht has an integrated ( single screen unit) for the :

 

Radar

GPS

Sounder

Chart Plotter

NavTex

 

I'm not happy but that's the way things are going these days.

One screen damaged, one bit of wiring damaged and the lot has gone.

 

I will be putting a repeater station at the helm so that should help a bit.

I will be getting a back up GPS and some 'proper' paper charts and will be using my 'tablet' based nav system that covers European waters as a back up.

[by'eck]

 

I feel that most owners would this this a difficult operation.

 

Firstly there is a significant cost saving when using an inverter / charger over separates

 

Also most installers would find installing separates correctly as difficult

 

Keith

 

Not sure I would agree with the cost issue unless you are putting a high value on installation. I fitted separate 1800 watt quasi sine Sterling inverter and one of their three output 50 amp chargers on my last boat during a re-fit, to replace the duff Victron Combi. Even with the double pole three way AC selector I bought and fitted, the total cost was significantly less than the equivalent Sterling Combi available at the time. Wiring the switch was not for the faint hearted though and I totally agree many builders/installers would find fitting one challenging to do correctly.

 

FWIW back with a Combi now but with second backup charger for redundancy. More difficult to make an operational mistake with them as well once set up.

[Top cat]

I have just fitted a Sterling 1600W pure sine wave inverter, allegedly better than a Chinese cheap but less cost than a Victron.

Within a week of fitting the display started going nuts intermittently, but it still puts out 240V 50hz under load A long phone call to Sterling resulted in they saying send it back and if its faulty we will repair it if its not we will charge you. Given that it's an intermittent fault and basically works I haven't done that yet but I'm not impressed with Sterlings attitude or quality control.

 

Top Cat

[Sea Dog]

I have just fitted a Sterling 1600W pure sine wave inverter, allegedly better than a Chinese cheap but less cost than a Victron.

Within a week of fitting the display started going nuts intermittently, but it still puts out 240V 50hz under load A long phone call to Sterling resulted in they saying send it back and if its faulty we will repair it if its not we will charge you. Given that it's an intermittent fault and basically works I haven't done that yet but I'm not impressed with Sterlings attitude or quality control.

Top Cat

And, quick as a flash, here's another of those posts that starts "I have a Sterling.... “! (Just an observation, based on nothing other than reading this forum)

[nb Innisfree]

 

No wet cells have a lower float voltage around 13.2 volts

 

AGM and Gel 13.8 volts

 

Keith

 

Keith

Yes, sorry, float not absorption.

[DavidExpert]

Most Victron units are dispatch with the battery configuration set up for AGM or Gel batteries. If using wet cells the float voltage will be at least 0.5 of a volt to high. Keith

Thanks Keith - they're AGM so all Ok

 

Regards

David