Potential Step Change In Battery Technology

[ditchcrawler]

Who should I talk to?

 

T C

Well Paul of Waterway Routes has a hybrid set up so has a boated in Oxford http://worcesternb.blogspot.co.uk/but he may have moved now as I saw him on TV in A place in the Country. I have his email address somewhere.

Then there is this thread http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=69938&hl=electric

[Paul C]

Personally I have a figure around 300 miles, below which I'd be a bit miffed. I know there's been some cars in the past, with unusually poor fuel economy/small fuel tanks with a range of around that, and it does become something of a pain to live with (even though it doesn't actually take long to refuel). I'd be worried about restricting the kinds of journeys I could do, below that. And there's going to be the odd night where I am unable to plug in at home, if I owned an electric car. If I had electric, I might just be okay with a little less so long as the charging was definitely done in the night; and one could miss the occasional night. No doubt in the future we'll see some kind of auto plug/unplug - I guess the current cars have a way of detecting they're connected, and won't allow the car to drive off like this - and I know they're developing contactless charging too.

[Sea Dog]

Who should I talk to?

 

T C

Maybe have a chat with the chap who owns "Ampere"? That's possibly about as far up the theory V practice curve as it gets at the moment. Interesting boat, and handsome to boot imho.

 

You might have to settle for getting your hybrid kicks in your car and keep the boat diesel for the foreseeable future - unless you have an insatiable burning desire and very deep pockets.

[Justme]

 

I don't really think it's particularly useful to compare a battery against the energy in a tank of fuel as internal combustion engine cars are hugely inefficient compared to EVs. To switch the comparison around, if you had an EV with a battery pack with the equivalent energy storage capacity as a typical fuel tank you'd be able to drive more than 2,000 miles which I think we can all agree is excessive

 

 

The inefficiency of an EV happens in the power station & transmission grid.

[MtB]

 

 

The inefficiency of an EV happens in the power station & transmission grid.

 

 

Surely not. The electricity in the sockets on the walls is generated by magic with no cost to the environment, as any fule kno.

 

You'll be claiming they burn gas or coal to generate the electricity next, and that it is less efficient to burn it 300 miles away than locally to where the electricity is being used... Sheesh!!!

[Paul C]

 

 

The inefficiency of an EV happens in the power station & transmission grid.

 

Google "Petroleum Equivalency Factor"

 

 

 

In the example provided by the US DoE in its final rule, an electric car with an energy consumption of 265 Watt-hour per mile in urban driving, and 220 Watt-hour per mile in highway driving, resulted in a petroleum-equivalent fuel economy of 335.24 miles per gallon, based on a driving schedule factor of 55 percent urban, and 45 percent highway, and using a petroleum equivalency factor of 82,049 Watt-hours per gallon.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Paul C

[Jambo]

 

 

The inefficiency of an EV happens in the power station & transmission grid.

 

Yes, and? The EV doesn't need to lug the primary energy sources around to make it go which is the point being discussed here. Also as we phase out fossil thermal plant and switch to renewables the grid is going to get a lot more efficient.

[PeterG]

The problem with boats is not the battery technology it's the charging technology for boats been off grid especially in winter. I see fuel cells like the Efoy comfort been one of the solutions.

 

I have seen the Efoy, have you any experience of this in operation?

[Robbo]

 

I have seen the Efoy, have you any experience of this in operation?

I haven't I'm afraid. I was going to make some calculations on paper compared overall costs with a petrol and diesel generator. I've got a feeling that the overall cost of electric is similar per kW, due to the inefficiency of charging batteries by generator.

 

The benefit of the Efoy I see is that it gives you the quiet constant background power and the battery's can act as a high load buffer when needed. The batteries will mostly be at 100% SoC so increasing longativity and a high capacity battery bank won't be needed so reducing the overall cost.

 

I don't see the current Efoy solutions to providing propulsion power, only day to day liveaboard power.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Robbo

[1st ade]

... - and I know they're developing contactless charging too.

 

Our local bus's have contact-less charging, as the engineer explained "like a giant version of charging an electric toothbrush". They reckon that the driver's ten minute tea break will allow the batteries to get a 10% charge - don't know how many KW/h that is.

 

I'm just waiting for the local Prius driving Taxi drivers to work out how to park over the bus charging plate and fill the "tank" for free!

[PeterG]

I haven't I'm afraid. I was going to make some calculations on paper compared overall costs with a petrol and diesel generator. I've got a feeling that the overall cost of electric is similar per kW, due to the inefficiency of charging batteries by generator.

 

The benefit of the Efoy I see is that it gives you the quiet constant background power and the battery's can act as a high load buffer when needed. The batteries will mostly be at 100% SoC so increasing longativity and a high capacity battery bank won't be needed so reducing the overall cost.

 

I don't see the current Efoy solutions to providing propulsion power, only day to day liveaboard power.

 

Yes I agree, I had been considering it as a backup to solar in the winter, as an alternative to running the engine, which is my only other source of power.

[Robbo]

 

Yes I agree, I had been considering it as a backup to solar in the winter, as an alternative to running the engine, which is my only other source of power.

If you do ever go for it I'm sure a few of us here will be interested.

 

It does seem a good match for a winter solution and a backup to solar.

 

If I didn't have a decent quiet built in diesel generator onboard I would seriously looking at the Efoy, and I think if I was using a portable generator I would have already converted over even if it was triple the running cost. I seriously don't know how people can be bothered to run a portable generator, it just seems too much hassle with setting it up every time you need it, then you have the worry of it gaining legs.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Robbo

[cuthound]

Surely for most people one problem with electric vehicles is battery cost.

 

At least with hydrocarbon fuelled vehicle the refuelling costs are drip fed. Maybe someone will lease batteries in the future??

[Top cat]

Surely for most people one problem with electric vehicles is battery cost.

At least with hydrocarbon fuelled vehicle the refuelling costs are drip fed. Maybe someone will lease batteries in the future??

Nissan already lease batteries for their Leaf EV

 

T C

[ditchcrawler]

Dont see how leasing anything with an infatuate life can be cheaper. A company buys an item, rents it you to recoup their outlay and then have profit on the top which you have to pay for.

[Sea Dog]

Dont see how leasing anything with an infatuate life can be cheaper. A company buys an item, rents it you to recoup their outlay and then have profit on the top which you have to pay for.

Perhaps Nissan are using battery leasing as a risk mitigation measure here in order to offset customer fears about uncertain battery life, unknown replacement costs, etc, during the introductory phase.

[Taslim]

Perhaps Nissan are using battery leasing as a risk mitigation measure here in order to offset customer fears about uncertain battery life, unknown replacement costs, etc, during the introductory phase.

I think you are on the money there. Nissan do take the long view.

 

Bus stop recharging pads are common 'round Milton Keynes. Yet to see one on the GU.

[Top cat]

I think you are on the money there. Nissan do take the long view.

 

Bus stop recharging pads are common 'round Milton Keynes. Yet to see one on the GU.

Thats because the permanent moorers are sat over them.

 

T C

[Justme]

 

Google "Petroleum Equivalency Factor"

 

 

 

I did, it seems they do not actually count any efficiency of the electrical generation or distribution systems.

 

They just assume that about 33kWh of elec is equal to 1 US gallon.

 

If you have a genny that you fuel with oil, then make elec that you then transport & use, how can that be more efficient than using the oil directly locally? Less conversion losses & less transmission losses.

 

Yes, and? The EV doesn't need to lug the primary energy sources around to make it go which is the point being discussed here. Also as we phase out fossil thermal plant and switch to renewables the grid is going to get a lot more efficient.

 

 

No it has to lug around the secondary storage. However the point was that an EV motor was more efficient. Yet not all the factors were being taken into account.

Nissan already lease batteries for their Leaf EV

 

T C

 

 

Yes they do.

 

However the lease cost worked out per mile is more than my car costs in fuel for the same mileage.

[Jambo]

 

No it has to lug around the secondary storage. However the point was that an EV motor was more efficient. Yet not all the factors were being taken into account.

 

 

Well yes and likewise the energy involved in extracting, transporting and refining the oil isn't taken into account in fuel economy figures. But it's the grid that's inefficient, not the EVs. Importantly, with internal combustion engine vehicles you're stuck with most of their inefficiency (and emissions) whereas as we retire thermal plant over the coming decades and replace it with renewables, the grid will only become more efficient (and cleaner).

[cuthound]

I did, it seems they do not actually count any efficiency of the electrical generation or distribution systems.

 

They just assume that about 33kWh of elec is equal to 1 US gallon.

 

If you have a genny that you fuel with oil, then make elec that you then transport & use, how can that be more efficient than using the oil directly locally? Less conversion losses & less transmission losses.

 

 

No it has to lug around the secondary storage. However the point was that an EV motor was more efficient. Yet not all the factors were being taken into account.

 

 

Yes they do.

 

However the lease cost worked out per mile is more than my car costs in fuel for the same mileage.

When I retired from the critical power industry 2 years ago, lead/acid batteries cost about £1000 per kWh. I presume other types will be more expensive.

 

My point about leasing is that it will cost £5000 to replace a 5kWh battery, say every 10 years, which is harder on the wallet than a tankfull of diesel every month or do.

 

So leasing makes it possible to spread the cost and as others have said, may mitigate the risk depending on the terms of the lease.

 

Edited to add the last paragraph.

Edited November 3, 2015 by cuthound

[Paul C]

Most new cars are bought on finance these days anyway. By leasing the battery, Nissan are simply artificially lowering the list price, and getting a slice of the finance on the car purchase. It kinda makes sense to buy a new car on finance anyway, since if you were restricted to outright buying, one could not afford such an expensive car, and would miss out on new technologies such as hybrid, electric etc.

[Jambo]

When I retired from the critical power industry 2 years ago, lead/acid batteries cost about £1000 per kWh. I presume other types will be more expensive.

 

My point about leasing is that it will cost £5000 to replace a 5kWh battery, say every 10 years, which is harder on the wallet than a tankfull of diesel every month or do.

 

So leasing makes it possible to spread the cost and as others have said, may mitigate the risk depending on the terms of the lease.

 

Edited to add the last paragraph.

 

Automotive lithium ion battery costs are already under $400 per kWh. The target is about $100 per kWh by 2020.

[MtB]

 

Automotive lithium ion battery costs are already under $400 per kWh. The target is about $100 per kWh by 2020.

 

 

So as the article in the OP says the lithium air batteries will cost fifth of the cost of lithium ion, $80 per kWh sounds to me as though they will conquer the world!

[Jambo]

It is a very promising technology but there are still huge hurdles to overcome and a good decade or so at least until commercialisation. By then lithium ion will be pretty damned cheap in itself ($150/kWh is often cited as the tipping point for EVs) but we'll need to keep driving costs down so hopefully that's where lithium air will step up.