Minimum time before return?

[FidoDido]

Tony Dunkley

 

As yet, I have not been on the wrong side of the CRT enforcement officer, but yes, you are completely correct.. it was learning how they treated you, that has fed this anxiety I have when in or near Nottingham... I would like to cruise that length relatively regularly (maybe every couple of months for 2-3 weeks, keeping within any mooring rules), as I work at the University, and it is very convenient when I have a particularly busy few weeks to have the boat close, rather than over an hour and a half return trip away at Shardlow. I have been trying to get a permanent mooring at Beeston for 3 years, but alas CRT haven't had a 70ft mooring come up at Beeston in a very long time. Thus I'm moored in Shardlow. That can be an hours drive in busy times, despite it being only 10 miles. I might consider Beeston Marina if and when they have a 70ft mooring available (not in past 6 months), or indeed Castle Marina (again, not in a long time - it was nearly £4k last time I asked and that was in with the sales boats!!) Sawley Marina would require me to have a very expensive residential mooring, even though I'm not residential, as "leisure users" (I'm 3 nights a week) aren't allowed to use their boat in the winter..!!

 

Therefore, I am trying to figure out how to cruise in the Sawley to Nottingham area every now and again, without inflicting any issues on either boaters or CRT.

 

Over the past 4 months, I've only been on that stretch twice. Once for 14 days, just at Beeston, the second time as described above (just under 3 weeks). I can't imagine that this is a serious issue for anyone.

 

Of course, if CRT want to sell me a mooring at Beeston, I'd bite their hand off!!

 

Similarly, If anyone knows of other places I can buy a mooring in/around Nottingham for a 70ft boat, let me know!

[Mrs Trackman]

Now that's highly useful info.. I'll go and look into that, and find out exactly where they are. (between the 2 bridges, or Cranfleet side of the Farmers bridge? (thought that was all permit holders up to the lock landing)

 

Sorry to get your hopes up, seems I was wrong. Mr Trackman says there is a sign in hedge saying permit holders right up to the farmer's bridge. It would be interesting to know whether there are any boaters with a mooring that far up.

Another possibility is to go onto the soar and moor on bollards opposite Redhill marina - a 20 minute walk to east Midlands parkway station. The big problem there though is that the soar can rise rapidly making it unsuitable for leaving a boat.

Another possibility is to go onto the Erewash. There are about 3 moorings on bollards just before the railway crosses the canal. This mooring is a 15 ish minute walk to long Eaton station. The biggest disadvantage with this mooring is that the trains are extremely noisy, there are actually 2 train lines there and freight trains sound as though they are going right through the boat when they start up. Also, there is often a boat there and not a lot of room.

I agree, it really is a pain having 48 hour moorings imposed all round that area.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Mrs Trackman

[Dave_P]

While I grab some popcorn, I'd say this:

 

You have a home mooring. Therefore the 14 day rule doesn't apply to you. Do whatever you like.

[jenlyn]

While I grab some popcorn, I'd say this:

 

You have a home mooring. Therefore the 14 day rule doesn't apply to you. Do whatever you like.

Agreed. Then shout for help if he gets grief.

[nb Innisfree]

I can't be any help but I do think it's a bit sad that people have to come on here seeking clarification on points such as this rather than just being able to go out and enjoy their boating. At least it does in part make me feel as if our decision to give up boat ownership (on CRT waters at least) is vindicated.

Though we never had any mooring hassle when we were cc liveaboards I'm not sorry we've left the canals,. Mind you our cruising was in the days of BW.

[kris88]

I believe some of the moorings on Cranfleet got removed as part of a deal with commercial marinas. Sounds like the signs are still up even though there haven't been permit holders on them for quite a while.

Regards kris

[FidoDido]

Mrs Trackman

 

Yes, I have been up the Erewash and Soar a little bit too (Kegworth, Zouch).. All adds to the fun. I'm not worried when I'm out in the sticks, as I'm moving quite a distance. Erewash is OK at Long Eaton and Sandiacre, but not really anywhere else convenient. Both of these only take 10 mins off my journey into work compared with Shardlow. Nice to get some different scenery though. Don't like to leave it on a river when I'm not there for obvious reasons, though in the summer its less risky.

 

In Nottingham, it doesn't feel like such a distance I'm cruising, and, as its within walking distance to work, obviously the longer I stay there, the more convenient it is for me! However, I'd rather keep on the good side of the "law"

 

Back to the original post / question.. It seems to me that if CRT stipulate a "no return within" time on some of their moorings, with signs, then if they don't provide a sign to give such information, there is no minimum time..

 

I shall therefore not worry next time. Though I will probably take a date and location-stamped photo of my boat each day when out and about.. My phone does all this anyway, and its no real hassle to take a pic on my phone each day, in case I get challenged!

 

Its been quite enjoyable moving around..

[magnetman]

 

Why submit to C&RT's attempted intimidation?

If you simply ignore this unlawful and unenforceable nonsense, there is no sanction they can successfully apply.

You are probably right but the more people who do this the more likely it is that things will change for the worse, specially for people who are actually interested in the long term viability of living on an inland waterway ! Its ok if the main interest is saving money in the short term but slightly different if you have a long term view. Loads of people 'freeloading' (yea I know its a inflammable term to use) will not cause positive outcomes in my opinion.

 

(I have an interest in that I have been living on inland waterways since I was 20 I am now 41 and never intend to leave the water)

[cotswoldsman]

You are probably right but the more people who do this the more likely it is that things will change for the worse, specially for people who are actually interested in the long term viability of living on an inland waterway ! Its ok if the main interest is saving money in the short term but slightly different if you have a long term view. Loads of people 'freeloading' (yea I know its a inflammable term to use) will not cause positive outcomes in my opinion.

 

(I have an interest in that I have been living on inland waterways since I was 20 I am now 41 and never intend to leave the water)

It does you no good by picking/blaming a small minority while living on boats as far as I am concerned they are boaters. If during this period they fail to follow the law then they should come under enforcement using the powers CRT have not using some mumbo jumbo invented rules to scare people off the canals. I have met plenty of boaters who came onto the system to save money and fell in love with the life. Some don't and they go, not because of CRT but simply because they don't like the lifestyle

[Tony Dunkley]

You are probably right but the more people who do this the more likely it is that things will change for the worse, specially for people who are actually interested in the long term viability of living on an inland waterway ! Its ok if the main interest is saving money in the short term but slightly different if you have a long term view. Loads of people 'freeloading' (yea I know its a inflammable term to use) will not cause positive outcomes in my opinion.

 

(I have an interest in that I have been living on inland waterways since I was 20 I am now 41 and never intend to leave the water)

 

I don't understand what you mean by ' loads of people freeloading', because that not what I'm advocating.

What I am saying is that there is no minimum time limit for returning to a casual mooring. Reproduced below is part of an e-mail reply from C&RT's 'in house' Solicitors, to me, concerning both return times and other matters relating to casual moorings.

The response is somewhat revealing, from both the tone of the reply and the total absence of any reference whatsoever to statutory, or other, powers.

"Question: The number of days which must elapse before a vessel can return to a casual

mooring after spending up to the permitted maximum of 14 days at that same

mooring.

Response:

As stated [above] CRT does not prescribe what the movement of a boat should be.

We expect that boaters will act with common sense and in good faith and will not

use the waterways which are for cruising in a manner which is effectively treating

places in the waterway as if they were moorings."

________________________________________________________

C&RT admitting that their desire to impose return time limits is confined to being nothing more than an expectation of common sense and good faith is not something they would be doing if they had the lawful means to do otherwise available to them.

[magnetman]

Ok ok

[MtB]

While I grab some popcorn, I'd say this:

 

You have a home mooring. Therefore the 14 day rule doesn't apply to you. Do whatever you like.

 

 

I'd suggest you're right, the 14 day rule in Section 17 doesn't apply.

 

But the other 14 day rule applies instead. The one the OP accepted in the terms and conditions when he applied for his home moorer's licence.

[Tony Dunkley]

Tony Dunkley

 

As yet, I have not been on the wrong side of the CRT enforcement officer, but yes, you are completely correct.. it was learning how they treated you, that has fed this anxiety I have when in or near Nottingham... I would like to cruise that length relatively regularly (maybe every couple of months for 2-3 weeks, keeping within any mooring rules), as I work at the University, and it is very convenient when I have a particularly busy few weeks to have the boat close, rather than over an hour and a half return trip away at Shardlow. I have been trying to get a permanent mooring at Beeston for 3 years, but alas CRT haven't had a 70ft mooring come up at Beeston in a very long time. Thus I'm moored in Shardlow. That can be an hours drive in busy times, despite it being only 10 miles. I might consider Beeston Marina if and when they have a 70ft mooring available (not in past 6 months), or indeed Castle Marina (again, not in a long time - it was nearly £4k last time I asked and that was in with the sales boats!!) Sawley Marina would require me to have a very expensive residential mooring, even though I'm not residential, as "leisure users" (I'm 3 nights a week) aren't allowed to use their boat in the winter..!!

 

Therefore, I am trying to figure out how to cruise in the Sawley to Nottingham area every now and again, without inflicting any issues on either boaters or CRT.

 

Over the past 4 months, I've only been on that stretch twice. Once for 14 days, just at Beeston, the second time as described above (just under 3 weeks). I can't imagine that this is a serious issue for anyone.

 

Of course, if CRT want to sell me a mooring at Beeston, I'd bite their hand off!!

 

Similarly, If anyone knows of other places I can buy a mooring in/around Nottingham for a 70ft boat, let me know!

 

As you have a (home) mooring at Shardlow you can spend as much time in and around Nottingham as you wish.

In the unlikely event that the delightful Mr Garner and his equally obnoxious Enforcement Supervisor Helen Underhill were to be foolish enough to attempt a re-run of the half baked pseudo legal action they tried on me, then you have the means at your disposal to stop them dead in their tracks.

If you do attract any unwelcome attention from them by simply doing that which the payment of your annual Licence Fee entitles you to do, then please mention my name and inform them that I will be supplying you, and anyone else they choose to try out their new 'rules' on, with all the information and assistance you may need to wreck any attempts by C&RT to pursue legal action along the same lines as they tried so unsuccessfully to do last year.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Mrs Trackman]

There's the moorings outside castle marina. Always seem to be full. Not sure what the deal is but was £5 a night which included nothing, not even elsan disposal. As it's a tow path mooring I have always wondered why castle marina were allowed to charge for them. They can be noisy especially at weekends and little better than outside sainsbury ' s.

[Mike Todd]

Following the interesting discussion on minimum distance, and enforcement, volunteers monitoring boat progress, etc, I thought I'd ask a related question, which I'm not sure I've seen any answer to anywhere in the past 4 years boating.

 

(snip)

 

I suggest that if you told this story to a judge (who is being asked whether you are properly engaged in a bona fide navigation/journey) you would have a hard time. It is clear that your main purpose for being on the boat is as a permanent (or principal) place of residence whilst you are gainfully employed. The question, I suggest, admits that you are not really journeying but want to find the least that you have to do to avoid the attention of an enforcement officer.

 

OK, that is something you are entitled to do but the closer you sail to the wind, the more likely it is that you will flip over to the wrong side, either deliberately or inadvertently.

 

In the absence of specific legislation, general purpose phrases have been used which judges, ultimately, may be asked to apply to specific cases. Along with many others asking this question in one form or another, it is clear that waht is in your mind may well be the basis of a judgement. Cases have already established that it is what you are intending that matters and your actions and the arguments you pur forward may well become evidence about that intention.

 

You would actually be better off if you had not asked the question - even better off if you had not felt the need to ask the question!

 

Incidentally, it somewhat amuses me that folk who declare themselves not in favour of being told what to do, in this case, criticise the lack of precise rules! What I suspect is often meant is that they dislike the lack of precise rules that make it clear that their actions are lawful!

 

 

[Tony Dunkley]

 

 

I suggest that if you told this story to a judge (who is being asked whether you are properly engaged in a bona fide navigation/journey) you would have a hard time. It is clear that your main purpose for being on the boat is as a permanent (or principal) place of residence whilst you are gainfully employed. The question, I suggest, admits that you are not really journeying but want to find the least that you have to do to avoid the attention of an enforcement officer.

 

OK, that is something you are entitled to do but the closer you sail to the wind, the more likely it is that you will flip over to the wrong side, either deliberately or inadvertently.

 

In the absence of specific legislation, general purpose phrases have been used which judges, ultimately, may be asked to apply to specific cases. Along with many others asking this question in one form or another, it is clear that waht is in your mind may well be the basis of a judgement. Cases have already established that it is what you are intending that matters and your actions and the arguments you pur forward may well become evidence about that intention.

 

You would actually be better off if you had not asked the question - even better off if you had not felt the need to ask the question!

 

Incidentally, it somewhat amuses me that folk who declare themselves not in favour of being told what to do, in this case, criticise the lack of precise rules! What I suspect is often meant is that they dislike the lack of precise rules that make it clear that their actions are lawful!

 

 

 

FidoDido wouldn't have to explain the extent of, or the intent behind, any of his boat movements to either a Judge or anyone else, . . . . . he has a mooring in Shardlow, and is therefore exempted from the 'bona fide for navigation' requirement of S.17(3)[c](ii) of the 1995 BW Act.

Whilst he retains a (home) mooring, and maintains BSSC and Third Party Insurance cover, then C&RT cannot lawfully revoke, or refuse to renew, his boat Licence. Given their scant regard for legality in these matters, they may attempt another bluff along similar lines to last year's debacle, but, should they be foolish enough to do so, then the end result will be no different.

His wishes and intentions are to make frequent, even daily use of his boat within a limited area . . . . . something which he and all other C&RT Boat Licence holders have the right to do, . . . . after all a 12 month boat licence is valid for every one of the 365 days in a year, and for every one of the 24 hours in each of those days.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[rufus2015]

Could someone at least attempt to produce a guide to what the rules actually are with mooring and cruising, I am new to all this and its doing my head in !

 

Stephen Hawking maybe ?

[Naughty Cal]

Could someone at least attempt to produce a guide to what the rules actually are with mooring and cruising, I am new to all this and its doing my head in !

 

Stephen Hawking maybe ?

The vast majority of boaters manage without one.

[Paul C]

Could someone at least attempt to produce a guide to what the rules actually are with mooring and cruising, I am new to all this and its doing my head in !

 

Stephen Hawking maybe ?

 

CRT did exactly that - produced guidance for continuous cruisers. Its on their website and easy to find. Its most recent update withstood a legal attack by Nick Brown (he launched a judicial review against it but withdrew from the case part way through). By all means interpret it (the law) differently, all I'm saying is that guidance exists.

[FidoDido]

Mike Todd

 

I have no issues with being told what not to do. Also, whist I do reside on the boat, this is for 4 days a week - I have a permanent home, and address.

 

The issue arises, that as you say, I am a moored with a mooring further away than I would like from my work address. I have not been able, thus far, to secure a mooring any closer, mainly as my boat is 70ft, and there are relatively few moorings for such vessels..

 

I was asking, indeed, what the rules are so I don't break them. What else would a law-abiding person do? That I have declared that my navigation in that area is so I can walk to work should be irrelevant? As long as I keep within the rules.. Thus, I was questioning what those rules are, and in particular, the re-visiting of a mooring spot, and if there was an implied lapse of time between visits.

 

Surely navigation can be for a variety of reasons, not just "I'm on holiday", or exploring the system. I do also boat around for a change of scenery, even if its further from my work than home mooring - I'm not just shuffling up and down the same 2 miles stretch constantly.

 

 

Rufus:

 

Having asked a number of questions along these lines, both on here, and to CRT, all I can say are the following:

 

1. If you have a home mooring, and are away from it, you obey the sign on the mooring, or if there is no sign, you can stay there for 14 days.

2. You need to be on a navigation.. BUT - there is no definition of this... Obviously if you move your boat, you are continuing a navigation?

3. Unlike those without a home mooring, there seems to be no minimum distance required per year etc.

 

It seems, therefore, that if you move your boat to comply with the rule of the mooring you are on (24h, 48h, 7D, 14D), then that SHOULD be fine.

 

What I've read, though not experienced, is that some CRT staff think there are rules beyond this. I also want to keep on the right side of them, but their rules seem to be hearsay.

[bassplayer]

The vast majority of boaters manage without one.

NC is right. You don't need one. Just ignore CRT's attempt to spoil everyone's fun (well those obsessed with enforcement because they have no life). To stay within the law don't overstay more than 14 days, don't obstruct anything and enjoy the exploration of cruising.

[Rusty Shackleford]

 

Why submit to C&RT's attempted intimidation?

If you simply ignore this unlawful and unenforceable nonsense, there is no sanction they can successfully apply.

I agree, thats why I speed past moored boats and nudge lock gates open. Not illegal or enforceable by law.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Rusty Shackleford

[Rusty Shackleford]

 

 

Why submit to C&RT's attempted intimidation?

If you simply ignore this unlawful and unenforceable nonsense, there is no sanction they can successfully apply.

 

Double post.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Rusty Shackleford

[Tony Dunkley]

Mike Todd

 

I have no issues with being told what not to do. Also, whist I do reside on the boat, this is for 4 days a week - I have a permanent home, and address.

 

The issue arises, that as you say, I am a moored with a mooring further away than I would like from my work address. I have not been able, thus far, to secure a mooring any closer, mainly as my boat is 70ft, and there are relatively few moorings for such vessels..

 

I was asking, indeed, what the rules are so I don't break them. What else would a law-abiding person do? That I have declared that my navigation in that area is so I can walk to work should be irrelevant? As long as I keep within the rules.. Thus, I was questioning what those rules are, and in particular, the re-visiting of a mooring spot, and if there was an implied lapse of time between visits.

 

Surely navigation can be for a variety of reasons, not just "I'm on holiday", or exploring the system. I do also boat around for a change of scenery, even if its further from my work than home mooring - I'm not just shuffling up and down the same 2 miles stretch constantly.

 

 

You seem to be assuming a need for your boat movements to comply with the 'used bona fide for navigation throughout the period of the [licence]' requirement, but as a (home) mooring holder you do not need to do this. You can lawfully use your boat as frequently as you wish to, and wherever you wish to.

[Angela C]

Following the interesting discussion on minimum distance, and enforcement, volunteers monitoring boat progress, etc, I thought I'd ask a related question, which I'm not sure I've seen any answer to anywhere in the past 4 years boating.

 

If on a mooring spot (i.e. not home mooring), what is the time before I can come back to it?

 

I'd been working on the rough assumption, that it would be "Mooring permitted for XXX days, no return within XXX days" - i.e. 24hr mooring, no return within 24 hrs; 14 day mooring, no return within 14 days.

 

 

I have a home mooring (in Shardlow), and for the past 4 months or so, I've been out and about on the system, with only about 2 weeks on my home mooring. I've been up as far as Fazeley, and down into Nottingham.

 

THus, when I was in Nottingham, I was at Beeston for 14 days, then Thane Rd for a day or two (about 1 mile down the cut), then opposite Trevethicks for 3 days (further 2 miles). I then needed to leave the boat for 4 days. I didn't fancy leaving it in the Nottingham centre, as over the weekend you often get pissed folk going up the towpath, and I wasn't going to be on it.

 

So, I had the choice... go back to Beeston (I had been away for 5 days or so), or take it 5-6 hours to Shardlow, which is the nearest 14 day mooring (Cranfleet, Trent Lock, Sawley all 48hr... Why!!! Especially Sawley.) I think actualy, section between Cranfleet and Trent Lock is 14 day, but you would have to use pins (no pilings, or rings), and I've been pulled off my pins there once before, as its a nice straight stretch, and folk like to test all 40hp of their engines whilst passing moored boats there..

 

I decided to do the 5 hr trip, despite this being difficult to fit in due to work (thank goodness for light evenings!!), as I didn't know the score with the "return" rule, and didn't want to risk fines etc.. plus they may not have spotted I'd been away for 4 or 5 days.

 

Anyone got any knowledge / guidance?

 

I would guess that leaving a mooring for a day, then going back for another 2 weeks is taking the proverbial.. But I've not seen it written anywhere that this is against the rules.. you might have traveled 20 miles in the day you were away.

 

but is leaving for 5 days (having moved 3 miles), then going back for 4 or 5 days, having already been there for 14 days recently, also taking the mick?

 

 

Why don't you just get a mooring in a marina, your working so can afford to pay for one!!!!!!!!!