Opinions and advice on my first boat

[Dave_P]

I tend to agree with Sirweste, I like the original boat best. The two follow up boats do nothing for me. It's all down to taste I suppose. One thing which I don't think has been mentioned it that it's got a high cabin top with vertical cabin sides (known in boating terms as having little 'tumblehome'). This is great for adding internal space and can look pretty cool if you're into brutalist architechture or cubism, but it can cause problems in tight tunnels where you're likely to catch the edges of the cabin top on the curve of the tunnel roof. Something to bear in mind....

 

plenty of liveaboards rely solely on a solid fuel stove for heat so no biggie there, and the instant water heater is handy since you won't have to run you engine for hot water.

 

One more thing - get a survey before buying. No ifs, no buts.

[Felshampo]

It's probably cheaper to keep it going, innit? Coming home to a freezing boat will cause lots of coal to be burned quickly, and will still take ages for the fabric and structure of the boat to warm up.

 

I don't care what coal costs. The boat has to be warm, or else I lose Mrs Loafer, and that means I die.

Confused..again. I have read on here before that a boat is better insulated than an average house. Don,t you have to open all the windows once the fire is roaring? Our house is not well insulated with less than 3" in the roof and solid walls but i don't need to leave the heating on during the day, once home it is soon warms up again. Also I would never leave the heating on overnight even if it were freezing outside, that would be horrible, as long as it comes on half an hour before we get up its fine. Is it so different on a boat? This is still an area I am trying to get a handle on as there seems to be so much conflicting advice on here.

[sirweste]

The square roof is a big bonus for me - much more useable height inside for my lanky 6'2" frame.

 

On paper it seems like the best buy I have seen for the age by quite a margin. See what its like in person and then post survey.

There are some downsides to it for sure - internal lay out and excessive outside space for starters, but on the whole it so far seems like the best I have seen.

 

Seen a couple of others at Ashford Marina in the Midlands - but I'm waiting to hear back on internal height.

 

Cheers

[Neil2]

Sorry guys/gals but I don't rate any of these boats for that sort of money. SirW you need to look at lots and lots of boats, not just two or three, and you will find, by the way, that almost every boat is a huge disappointment "in the flesh". Spend a few days trawling round the brokers you can only get so far by surfing the internet.

 

Regarding costs this is an old chestnut of course but to me the big difference to living in a house is there is no way you can procrastinate on a boat, houses will stand a fair amount of neglect by comparision. On a boat when something breaks or malfunctions you have to fix it straight away. If you are renting on dry land you know exactly what your outgoings will be, if/when you become a boat owner you'll be surprised what you haven't thought of in terms of yearly costs. If you are still uncertain about this common sense dictates you don't blow your entire budget on the boat, and certainly not if you have never owned one before.

 

 

[David Mack]

Confused..again. I have read on here before that a boat is better insulated than an average house. Don,t you have to open all the windows once the fire is roaring? Our house is not well insulated with less than 3" in the roof and solid walls but i don't need to leave the heating on during the day, once home it is soon warms up again. Also I would never leave the heating on overnight even if it were freezing outside, that would be horrible, as long as it comes on half an hour before we get up its fine. Is it so different on a boat? This is still an area I am trying to get a handle on as there seems to be so much conflicting advice on here.

 

Your house, even if poorly insulated, has thermal mass, so it will retain heat from the daytime during the night, and so normally doesn't get that cold overnight with no heating on. But a boat has little thermal mass, and will cool down very quickly if unheated as the outside temperature drops. The other side of the coin is that it will also heat up again much more quickly.

[Loafer]

Don't forget that SirW is living in his camper van and needs something soon. There is a danger that he might spend more than he needed, but at least HE would be happy.

 

As long as he gets the 'kin survey!

Especially the stove! He doesn't want THAT failing in the winter.

[Neil2]

Don't forget that SirW is living in his camper van and needs something soon. There is a danger that he might spend more than he needed, but at least HE would be happy.

 

As long as he gets the 'kin survey!

Especially the stove! He doesn't want THAT failing in the winter.

I'm not so sure about that, the big danger with a complete novice is they blow all their money on something then cruise around for a year or so finding boat after boat that would have suited them better and probably cheaper too.

 

Most of the "older" members of the forum will probably have a boat they are 99% happy with, but it probably took them several boats to get there, and a lot will have started out with something very basic, which is the advice I would offer.

 

If you gave me £35k I would have the boat of my dreams but only because I've had a few boats made a few mistakes and learned quite a lot in the process.

[Loafer]

Mmm. But if he already HAD a 'boat of his dreams' in mind, then why isn't he out looking for it? As someone said above, most peoples' first boats are not their last. There's always summat you'd change next time.

 

If all the stuff in that boat works, the SURVEY is sound, she floats, motors AND he likes it, he could simply be about to buy his first boat.

 

I would definitely 'aggle the price though.

[Felshampo]

Your house, even if poorly insulated, has thermal mass, so it will retain heat from the daytime during the night, and so normally doesn't get that cold overnight with no heating on. But a boat has little thermal mass, and will cool down very quickly if unheated as the outside temperature drops. The other side of the coin is that it will also heat up again much more quickly.

 

Thanks for that

[sirweste]

Aye that's the key really, I not too fussy like, if it were a mini / other old British car I would be right fussy, but to me it's just a boat.

Need to get is soon as the back of my van is somewhere in between a van with a mattress in the back and a camper! Only 4 nights a week but it's getting colder now and I'm starting to cave to the thought of renting somewhere temp / hotels - which is throwing boat money away.

As for fixing stuff regular I'm fairly good at that given the ownership of several old British cars, the Cooper Garages Mini was the worst needing a cyl head rebuild every 12'000 miles if I treated it gentle (which I never did).

 

I'm quite surprised that Neil thinks they are all over priced - the original boat seems to me to be very well priced compared to anything else I've see in the mid to late noughties. There's, for example, a lovely boat just gone on eBay called Bubbles, which is of similar age with some extra bits and it's advertised at £50k.

The original boat isn't perfect but it's pretty good, my ideal would be: 60ft cruiser (but not loads of deck space), open plan interior, square shape for headroom, stove, pump out bog, solar panels, split charger, 240V, one bedroom with fixed double, floor space for my bike obsession and a fuel efficient British engine. So out of that I need to adjust the interior, have to suffer the big outside and put up with a bit more fuel consumption.

 

So far what I have gleaned from all the replies is that:

Must get a Survey

Radiator heating, and thus boat heating, is only through the stove.

 

I'm right glad I came on and asked as all the replies have been interesting and helpful, and I wouldn't have got a survey had I not posted on here.

 

I have a question about age though, at the moment I'm viewing it as quite important, however does the age of a boat not matter too much? I guess it's all down to how it's been looked after, if it's 20 years and been with loads of owners that's quite different from a one owner - but in general is there much benefit of buying a newer boat?

[wrigglefingers]

Tricky to answer, in boat terms you could be comparing a Led Zep album to something JayZ rattled up whilst having his barnet done. It's largely a matter of quality to start with and then taste and style afterwards. Generally, boats may rust and wear if they've not been looked after and therefore a newer boat has less time to deteriorate. On the other hand, older boats may have been better built in the first place, but that's not a given either.

 

What most people try to do, if they can think rationally, is to compile lists of reputable boat builders (there are a substantial number of disreputable ones, beware!). You'll find plenty of information about these boats hidden amongst our threads, so do some searching or ask, one of our weary, but kindly greybeards will sigh and link you to a thread. Compile a list of things you want on your boat, Dominic told me to list ten must have things and look at the boats that have five or more of them. Get some help from an experienced boater - we see things you'll miss and then think carefully. I know time is limited, but take this decision carefully. It's a lot of money and if you make a mistake you could be throwing money straight into the cut. Plenty have in the past. Where are you based?

[sirweste]

Ok sound cheers.

 

The original boat sounds better and better then, built by what I can tell is a good builder in "the internet's" opinion. Young compared to almost everything else priced under 45k. The looked after bit I will find out when I get there and then from the survey.

 

Will be interesting to see the boat in the flesh and see how my opinion of it changes!

 

Going to try to view this on the drive north tomorrow:

http://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=393236

It's got good headroom for me, needs to drop in price a lot though

[wrigglefingers]

Ok sound cheers.

The original boat sounds better and better then, built by what I can tell is a good builder in "the internet's" opinion. Young compared to almost everything else priced under 45k. The looked after bit I will find out when I get there and then from the survey.

Will be interesting to see the boat in the flesh and see how my opinion of it changes!

Going to try to view this on the drive north tomorrow:

http://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=393236

It's got good headroom for me, needs to drop in price a lot though

It's difficult to to tell but that looks a better bet from the photos albeit in desperate need of some paint in a more reasonable colour inside. It's not been used for a while - I can see dust on the cooker hob. Jonathan Wilson is a well respected builder and the fit out looks serviceable, it reminds me of my first boat, it has a general air of slightly battered but honest.

 

Trouble is, as soon as start really looking you start to see why some boats cost more than others. There's something that doesn't quite ring true about your first boat but I can't see quite what it is. I am glad we've persuaded you to get a survey - be sceptical.

[Chop!]

The first boat mentioned only has one 215amp leisure battery

[George94]

The problem with the first boat is that it looks hideous. That means a low purchase price, but also a low sales price, and don't forget that the buyer of this boat will no longer be in the market when you sell it.

[sirweste]

Winds of Change does look good, its one third over my original bugdet so they'll have to move on price alot. I would actually prefer the radiators to be heated by the stove, but thats minor. The decor is appauling yes.

 

Here's an outside shot from the 2009 sale:

http://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/narrowboat-blog/2009/10/narrowboat-winds-of-change-arrives-at-whilton-marina/

 

Yep I know the original needs additional batteries, that minor though.

Yep I know it doesn't look pretty, I'm not fussed though, I am fussed about not losing money on resale so that is a consideration.

[Dave_P]

Confused..again. I have read on here before that a boat is better insulated than an average house. Don,t you have to open all the windows once the fire is roaring? Our house is not well insulated with less than 3" in the roof and solid walls but i don't need to leave the heating on during the day, once home it is soon warms up again. Also I would never leave the heating on overnight even if it were freezing outside, that would be horrible, as long as it comes on half an hour before we get up its fine. Is it so different on a boat? This is still an area I am trying to get a handle on as there seems to be so much conflicting advice on here.

The reason why people open their windows when the fire is roaring, is because...the fire is roaring! They've got a 5kw stove which could easily heat most of a small house in a space the size of a garage. They're wasting a lot of fuel because they're not controlling the air intake properly and (I suspect) they are the same people who complain that they can't keep a stove in all night. At this time of year, I keep my stove just ticking over, rarely allow it to go out completely, use around 1.5 bags of coal a week and keep my boat at a comfy temperature. I also have no illusions that my boat is less well insulated than many houses. It just stands to reason, most houses built in the last hundred years have cavity walls and most of those now have insulation in the cavity. Lofts are usually insulated to a far greater degree than boats can be due to thickness. Double glazing is virtually standard with houses now but still quite rare on boats. Of course there is variation, with houses and with boats, but to suggest boats are better insulated than houses goes against common sense. Boats also cool down quicker than houses, for the reasons already given. It's not just the size of houses which is a factor, it's the materials. Compared to steel, brick is a poor conductor of heat. This means that once warmed up, the heat is retained in the brick for a long time. It's the same way that night storage heater works. Boats are small compared to houses but they also don't have much in the way of materials which can hang on to their heat. So they cool quickly.

 

I suspect that people think boats are especially well insulated are thinking that because they're cheap to heat and they heat up pretty quickly.

 

If it snows heavily this winter, do a quick (but not very scientific) experiment, have a look at the cabin tops of boats which have liveaboards, then have a look at the roofs of houses which are occupied. You'll find snow lasting on those house roofs a lot longer than the boat roofs.

[matty40s]

 

 

If it snows heavily this winter, do a quick (but not very scientific) experiment, have a look at the cabin tops of boats which have liveaboards, then have a look at the roofs of houses which are occupied. You'll find snow lasting on those house roofs a lot longer than the boat roofs.

 

I can sweep the snow off my roof in 5 minutes, my Mum and Dad struggle to clear the drive of their house, never mind get up to the roof.

[magnetman]

I always like to have a look at boats when there is snow on the top and the heating is going. you can see the position of the cabin top internal framing (on a steel cabin) really clearly where the snow dips or melts completely due to the transfer of heat through the metal frames. I find it can be very pleasing to look at.

the ring of melted snow around a solid fuel stove collar is also most satisfactory. I think its the rarity with which this phenomenon is available for viewing which makes it all the more exciting.

sorry just realisd this is way off topic

[Peter X]

I think Dave_P in post #67 gives a very good explanation of how heat loss works and why boats will generally cool down faster than houses. As magnetman has observed, steel (or any metal in fact) is a very good conductor of heat, and although the insulation layer in a typical boat roof will be very helpful, the steel frame will be conducting heat from inside to outside. At hull level, in theory I'd expect the steel to rapidly cool to canal/river temperature, especially if the water's moving.

 

Based on the above, I think that while it will be a bit cheaper to turn heating off overnight or when away from a boat for the day, a desirable compromise if you can do it is to have just enough background heating to maintain a temperature of about 5 to 10C. That's going to be a lot more comfortable to come home to than a frozen boat, and should help keep down damp. Plus of course, if it's a stove and you already have a low fire going, you can soon build it up when you get out of bed or arrive home. Newton's law of cooling (and common sense) tells us that this strategy will consume a lot less energy because the temperature difference to outside is low. On a very cold day it might be a lot more cost-effective than having no heating, if it prevents a pipe freezing up and creating an expensive repair bill.

 

I'll qualify the above advice by saying that I only have limited experience of being aboard a boat in cold weather, I'm coming at this from an understanding of the physics and my experiences living in houses, combined with what people on this forum who do live aboard say.

[Dave_P]

 

I can sweep the snow off my roof in 5 minutes, my Mum and Dad struggle to clear the drive of their house, never mind get up to the roof.

Good point. Why would you though? And I'd expect the difference between a melting (from internal heat) snowy roof and a swept snowy roof to be pretty obvious.

 

I'm still wondering why you'd sweep the snow off your roof though? I really like seeing it there.

I always like to have a look at boats when there is snow on the top and the heating is going. you can see the position of the cabin top internal framing (on a steel cabin) really clearly where the snow dips or melts completely due to the transfer of heat through the metal frames. I find it can be very pleasing to look at.

I thought I was the only one! We are both a bit odd aren't we?

 

the ring of melted snow around a solid fuel stove collar is also most satisfactory. I think its the rarity with which this phenomenon is available for viewing which makes it all the more exciting.

 

Exciting may be overstating it a little!

Edited December 5, 2014 by Dave_P

[Loafer]

Well the upshot of all this seems to be that SirW needs a boat quickly - and he's found one that he thinks he likes. If it proves to be sound, he can then cruise the network ogling at other boats. Just like we do when we first get married!

 

Who knows, he might be satisfied that he made the right choice. If he's pissed off that he hasn't, and wishes he'd bought a new Hudson or a Fuller, then so what? He can't get one of those right now, anyway.

[Athy]

Well summed up. We may proffer advice and opinions, but it's his mind to make up and his money to splash out.

I still like the "nameless" one the best!

[sirweste]

Ok so I visited two Marinas this afternoon and looked at 3 boats.

The only one that were any good was Winds of Change:

http://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=393236

 

Boat it is way too built up for me, all those fitted unit make the place feel right cluttered. Didn't like the traditional back end either, decided I do want a cruiser or semi traditional. On the whole a nice boat but interior need a tart up for sure, and not right for me.

Externally it's seemed alright, lick of paint here and there but fine otherwise. Perhaps a bit much too £40k for a 2001, though an upside is that the engine is 2001 as well.

 

Then I went to Norton Junction and got given keys for Ichthus and William.

Both were shite inside. Damp wood, gaffa taped carpets, leaks, rats nest wiring etc. The Ichthus was real nice externally.

http://www.norburywharfltd.co.uk/_webedit/uploaded-files/All%20Files/William%2010337.pdf

http://www.norburywharfltd.co.uk/_webedit/uploaded-files/All%20Files/Ichthus%2010340.pdf

 

So on to the next one tomorrow hopefully - if I finally get hold of the guy.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171547356602

[Loafer]

Well, no-one can say you're not giving it some effort!