Paint pimpleing

[Ray T]

The issue of my slide is being sorted, I will report back later.

 

 

Good news, The owner of Grantham's Bridge Boat Yard, where the boat was painted, has been in touch to say they will repaint my slide F O C.

 

I must stress the problem with the lacquer was NOT the Yard's fault, or mine for that matter. It has just been a freak of prevailing weather conditions.

 

So three cheers for GBBS and of course many thanks.

 

Edited December 3, 2014 by Ray T

[Ray T]

Went to the boat today to take the slide off and had a look at some other boats. This is the slide of a boat which was repainted only 8 weeks ago. I should imagine when the owners return they will be hopping mad.

 

DSCF2015

 

One other boat I looked at the whole of the roof was affected.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Ray T

[smileypete]

With the lacquer problem, could be that the paint is chalking under the lacquer and causing it to let go and delaminate.

 

Normally when a suitable varnish or lacquer is used to protect such a paint, it must be religiously maintained by recoating at certain intervals, like for varnish on wooden boats.

 

With microblistering I suspect much of the problem is that the paint film thickness is absolutely minimal if not completely inadequate.

 

Big topic on microblistering a while back:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27922

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited December 6, 2014 by smileypete

[bizzard]

I think I've solved the problem folks, read the thread ''What have you fettled on the boat today.

[ditchcrawler]

Went to the boat today to take the slide off and had a look at some other boats. This is the slide of a boat which was repainted only 8 weeks ago. I should imagine when the owners return they will be hopping mad.

 

DSCF2015

 

One other boat I looked at the whole of the roof was affected.

Just like mine

[Ray T]

With the lacquer problem, could be that the paint is chalking under the lacquer and causing it to let go and delaminate.

 

Normally when a suitable varnish or lacquer is used to protect such a paint, it must be religiously maintained by recoating at certain intervals, like for varnish on wooden boats.

 

With microblistering I suspect much of the problem is that the paint film thickness is absolutely minimal if not completely inadequate.

 

Big topic on microblistering a while back:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27922

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

In the case of the photo in post #27 the paint job is only two months old? Also there are boats in "our" marina which are not lacquered and have been similarly affected. As far as my limited research has been, it is only horizontal, or near horizontal surfaces where rain water has sat in globules and then was frozen. I feel that for Ventnor at least there are too many boats affected within 10 days for it to be suspect original paint work. As mentioned before the horizontal surfaces of the boats also had a layer of black muck on as well. Whether this contributed to the problem I know not. I put it down to freak weather conditions.

 

On further inspection of my boat other surfaces have been affected:

 

DSCF2013

 

I painted the rudder stock only a month ago!

 

 

 

DSCF2017

 

The boat above had the whole roof affected but was not lacquered. I have posted a large picture so hopefully the dirt and blistering are evident.

 

Ditchcrawler's boat is moored about 4-5 miles away from Ventnor Marina and his boat has been affected as well.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Ray T

[ditchcrawler]

 

In the case of the photo in post #27 the paint job is only two months old? Also there are boats in "our" marina which are not lacquered and have been similarly affected. As far as my limited research has been, it is only horizontal, or near horizontal surfaces where rain water has sat in globules and then was frozen. I feel that for Ventnor at least there are too many boats affected within 10 days for it to be suspect original paint work. As mentioned before the horizontal surfaces of the boats also had a layer of black muck on as well. Whether this contributed to the problem I know not. I put it down to freak weather conditions.

 

On further inspection of my boat other surfaces have been affected:

 

DSCF2013

 

I painted the rudder stock only a month ago!

 

 

 

DSCF2017

 

The boat above had the whole roof affected but was not lacquered. I have posted a large picture so hopefully the dirt and blistering are evident.

 

Ditchcrawler's boat is moored about 4-5 miles away from Ventnor Marina and his boat has been affected as well.

Yes we were at Napton but it was 4 years ago when ours blistered, Ours was not lacquered and the roof came off in big blisters which was Epiphane grey but the slides, cants,locker hatch etc were gloss Craft Master. Looking at the blisters now they look to be grey under the popped pimples and not rusty

[David Schweizer]

Have you checked whether the problem is in just one part of the marina, or more widespread Ray? If it is localised could it be emmissions from someone's chimney which may have been absorbed and washed onto boat roofs by the rain. If it is more widespread, has a local farmer been spraying something which may have drifted onto the boats? I visited our boat on the Sunday before your original post, and did not notice any pimpling on the roof or slide. We are moored less than a mile away from Ventnor, so presumably weather conditions would be the same

[Ray T]

David, I only looked at the boats in the area where we are moored. I will be going to the marina later this week so I will look at Phase II as well.

 

Ditchcrawler, with the manner in which you posted I thought the pimpling on your boat had happened recently not 4 years ago!

Edited December 7, 2014 by Ray T

[ditchcrawler]

David, I only looked at the boats in the area where we are moored. I will be going to the marina later this week so I will look at Phase II as well.

 

Ditchcrawler, with the manner in which you posted I thought the pimpling on your boat had happened recently not 4 years ago!

On the hand rails it seams to come and go,a bit, with the weather

[Phil Speight]

I`m not going to get too involved in this - because after years of researching blistering I and the technicians I have been working with have isolated at least two dozen separate potential causes in an industry where most people are only really interested in one of them. If you have blisters that affect only the varnish ( lacquer if you will ) then it must be coming from the paint immediately beneath it. You need to check again. Is the source of the blisters deeper in the paint layers - before you deal with it purely as a varnish problem.

Whatever people may say about modern paints ( and incidentally I say again that coach, or decorative enamels were exempted from the 2010 regulations)a good synthetic varnish is almost entirely proof against surface penetration by moisture. The references here to ice etc. are probably aimed at the explanation that I and others hold to - that in a particularly severe winter some time ago micro-blistering was caused by moisture trapped by ice and successive layers of snow for up to two months.I warn you now winter is coming. If you allow accumulations of ice and snow to sit unattended on your boat for an extended period paint damage could result and it would not be the responsibility of either your painter or the paint itself.

John`s pigment theory is not one I have heard before but when we next work together I will be interested to hear about it. Im trying very hard to get away from all this now - but I would dearly love to nail the whole issue and even , if possible, have an even handed consensus among painters, manufacturers and boat owners. It will need a lot of people to accept that micro-blistering isn`t a disease- it`s merely a symptom of a several potential maladies and ultimate responsibility may have to apportioned differently in different cases. Some, from differing areas of interest, will find this difficult for a variety of reasons. Therein lies the problem.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Phil Speight

[Phil Speight]

I`ve been thinking ! This is unusual but I`m unable to work at the moment so I`ve got time to spend with brain engaged.
The widely held opinion that modern paint has no guts and is therefor the primary cause of blistering needs considering closely. Firstly , what modern paint has none of is actually lead, very difficult to replace in a formulation and certainly the reason why chrome colours no longer cover as well as they used to. Manufacturers know years in advance of any legislation that may adversely effect their products and always have had, and they work very hard to mitigate the consequences. They have to because if they didn`t they would be in trouble very quickly. Sometimes they may have only limited success - as with the coverage of the chrome colours and painters and boat owners should choose the colours least affected. Certainly some reds and yellows ( and some other formulations which include a proportion of them ) perform differently from others. We, as professionals, should really know this and advise accordingly.

However, when it comes to potential physical paint failure the manufacturers cannot afford to offer product that is sub-standard. Our canal market is a very small one as far as they are concerned, indeed some of the factories would hardly miss it if disappeared completely. They have much bigger fish to fry - huge markets worldwide - to which they supply exactly the same materials with only a fraction of the problems that manifest themselves around the English canal system. That is not to deny or underplay those probems, not in the least. I am only closely involved with one major manufacturer supplying paint etc worldwide and can only comment on their work towards resolving the problems we are discussing here. Smsll as the market is they have been concerned about canal boat related issues for a number of years now. They, and I, actually have a "control boat" out on the system to be sure that whatever steps we take are tested in the relevant environment but I can assure you that the abuse the paints are subjected to in the "Accelerated Degradation" department at the works are worse than anything nature can afflict it with. Why are they doing all this ? Firstly to see if there is weakness in the paint system that only significantly affects it in our market, to identify that weakness and counter it and to see,alternatively if the problems are largely caused by paint being applied in inadequate conditions, can something can be done to help in such circumstances. It may be that one material needs attention to improve it`s suitability while another needs protecting against bad practice in the workplace. Nothing will do any good whatsoever if a boat simply has insufficient paint on it and you may be surprised by the number of occasions when this has proved to be the case. Some of you may be very surprised!

It could be significant that boats tend to be pushed out into the weather as soon as the paintwork is completed, while the paint has hardly begun to cure, something that would be very difficult to guard against. It would only be relevant however in cases where the blistering appears very early in the life of the paint. We should remember as well that full gloss paint sheds moisture much more quickly than satin or matt. It could well be that with a combination of much damper weather conditions in recent years and differing specifications of driers in the paint that there will be occasions when it is advisable to leave more time between coats. These things can be addressed both in the paint docks and in the paint factories and I know docks and paint chemists who are doing so.
I do have to question painters who blame specific materials for their problems and then carry on using them !

None of the above is relevant if work is done in damp conditions, in temperatures which are either too low or too high, in high humidity ( which is as much of a problem in summer, or worse, as at any other time ) when unsuitable heating is used or even when suitable heating IS used but is switched off overnight and then on again in the morning or,if quantities of solvent are used to clean off paint which has only just had chance to dry or to degrease bare metal which is then primed the moment the solvent has flashed off.

I`ve written this as openly and as even handedly as I am able to try and show you that this is not simply a case of poor paint or poor painting. There is much more I could say, many more areas that should be looked at before apportioning blame in any individual case. There are lots of people out there with firmly held opinions about these issues, some are worth listening to, others either have an axe to grind, a vested interest or no real knowledge - in the land of the blind the one eyed man really can be king !

Edited December 11, 2014 by Phil Speight

[Ray T]

Thank you for that in depth explanation Phil.

 

Just to reiterate, I am not putting any blame on the paint manufacturer or the yard that applied it for what has happened to my boat.

The phenomenon has happened to too many boats all within a space of 10 days between visits to our boat, in "our" marina for it to be anything else but freak weather conditions.

[Phil Speight]

I`ve not heard of any freak weather conditions yet this winter but if a number of boats have suddenly been affected in one confined area is it possible that they have all suffered from some sort of atmospheric pollution possibly integrated with rainfall. Man made airborne pollution can travel miles from it`s source before dropping down to earth. For instance, the northwest has been notorious for paint problems caused by fallout from industrial plants around Ellesmere Port and Widnes and close by Trevor. Such problems have not been confined to boats.

[bizzard]

Under the flight path of Stansted airport here we get a certain kind of greasyness and dust on paintwork from aircraft fuel overflow venting and their exhaust I expect. A touch of Ryanitis, The Boeings, or Easyjetsom we call it, but no paint pimples though.

[mark99]

I had a good look at my boat today after cleaning it down with water. Bearing in mind it was done by a well know pro outfit in a covered dock with pro materials. Probably done 3 years ago by previous owner.

 

There are no microblisters on the roof, slide, hatches or the front end, rear end of the boat or upper bowsides (top plank).

 

However the cabinsides and panels (vertical) both sides are all absolutely smothered in thousands of micro bumps. All the way down the sides and all the way along.You have to look real hard to see them in a strong light (you can feel them more than see them). I have 3 main colours (red, maroon, dark blue) - they all have the bumps.

 

It does not affect the look of the boat but they are there. I'm not going to worry about it (as you cannot see them unless you stare hard at the surface from less than 1 foot away and it may have always been there - I just happened to "feel" the bumps on cabin side one night recently when shuffling down the gunnel). It just shows you how widespread this issue is and anyone considering a pro paint job needs to consider - is it really worth it?

 

If pro's have no control over a paint job ends up, don't have a clue whats causing it, talk abounds about strange weather conditions - it seems to me a complete lottery whether your boat ends up microblistered or not down the line and also a lottery how bad the blistering becomes over time (settles down or degrades even more over time).

 

Frankly there is a lot to be said of just doing a good quality DIY job (under cover at right time of year/day with good prep) with average materials (paint). That way your expenditure is minimised and you have control of prep, dewpoints, film thickness and time of paint to harden and only yourself to ask questions of when a very expensive and, what should be a straightforward, albeit time consuming task, fails.

 

I should add I looked carefully at my neighbours boat which is older than mine with a pro paint job who just leaves it empty, static, unwashed, unwaxed etc full of leaves etc and goes out rarely (once per year?). His paint has no blistering whatsoever so it cannot be anything to do with recent weather conditions or local contaminants.

Edited December 13, 2014 by mark99

[MtB]

I had my boat roof painted by GBBS. Within weeks it was covered in tiny orange dots that looked like rust spots. Weirdly they don't get any worse, and life is too short to worry about it.

 

The boat still steers fine and hasn't sunk.

 

Easily pleased, me...

 

 

MtB

[mark99]

Good attitude to have MtB however I can't see someone who spend £8K on a full paint job being so laid back.

[MtB]

Anyone spending £8k on a paint job needs their bumps feeling....

 

For want of a better expression

 

 

MtB

[mark99]

NB If I did my own paint job I would have a film thickness gauge, whirling hygrometer, with look up chart, temp gauge and detailed paint coating specification/ instructions to hand. Importantly I would not apply paint outside of the conditions warned about on the paint instructions.

 

As I've said before our external coaters painters used to have a Lloyds accredited paint inspector stood next to them all day, measuring dewpoint, temp, film thickness telling them when they could and could not paint. The painter had no say in his paint window.

 

The inspectors also used to "sentence" the surface preparation too (which was grit blasted) beforehand. All this in the good old days before our industry switched from Alkyd to water based coating systems and the paint formulations as a whole were changed due to EU stricter controls.

Edited December 14, 2014 by mark99

[MtB]

Good attitude to have MtB however I can't see someone who spend £8K on a full paint job being so laid back.

 

 

Oh and I forgot to mention, they painted it sky blue after we agreed 'squirrel grey'!!

 

 

MtB

[Higgs]

NB If I did my own paint job I would have a film thickness gauge, whirling hygrometer, with look up chart, temp gauge and detailed paint coating specification/ instructions to hand. Importantly I would not apply paint outside of the conditions warned about on the paint instructions.

 

As I've said before our external coaters painters used to have a Lloyds accredited paint inspector stood next to them all day, measuring dewpoint, temp, film thickness telling them when they could and could not paint. The painter had no say in his paint window.

 

The inspectors also used to "sentence" the surface preparation too (which was grit blasted) beforehand. All this in the good old days before our industry switched from Alkyd to water based coating systems and the paint formulations as a whole were changed due to EU stricter controls.

 

 

That's life in a business. That doesn't mean the painter's experience counts for nothing. They just have to become very adept at controlling the environment. There is one particular paint job that I remember. Paid extra special care, followed everything to the letter, had it checked by the paint suppliers, had the depth of coat checked, humidity gauges, more temperature gauges than you could shake a stick at, air, paint, steel. The paint went on lovely, but dried without the high gloss it should have. Everyone was scratching their heads. It had to be finished with a lacquer; supplied free of charge by the paint suppliers. It was a very expensive paint.

 

There's a fair bit at stake for a painter. Things do go wrong. Short of having a laboratory at hand, can be very difficult to nail the problem. Like a lot of occupations, knowledge and the 'black art' work together.

[Phil Speight]

Painters need to protect themselves. It`s not enough to blame any problems that MAY occur on materials before they even start the job - as some do.If they want to do their utmost to counter difficulties with the jobs they do and give themselves real credibility in any disputes that may arise afterwards they need to equip themselves suitably. Monitor surface and ambient temperatures regularly through the day, ditto humidity, be aware of dewpoints and LOG IT ALL.

If they have acted appropriately given the information they are observing and logging (and demonstrate that they have) they can then start to look elsewhere for the causes both legitimately and with a good chance of getting co-operation from the paint industry. They may also find they have fewer problems.

Paint can go wrong - after all human error and specification changes can sometimes come into play - although the latter is by no means as widespread as people imagine because changes are usually very minor indeed in materials that aren`t necessarily caught in the legislation net. Everyone can mess up though and it would be unreasonable and unfair to make an exception of paint manufacturers. One has recently had to quarantine an enormous quantity of one pigment as a result of a legitimate customer complaint which was immediately researched and acted upon. I can honestly say though that the painters who have invested the most money in and on their facilities are the ones who have the least problems - but even they aren`t always spared and when, if, they do get caught out they have a good sound platform on which to defend themselves.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Phil Speight

[Phil Speight]

I had my boat roof painted by GBBS. Within weeks it was covered in tiny orange dots that looked like rust spots. Weirdly they don't get any worse, and life is too short to worry about it.

 

The boat still steers fine and hasn't sunk.

 

Easily pleased, me...

 

 

MtB

Just a thought ! If by any chance someone had been grinding steelwork in the vicinity of your boat and the dust had landed on your paintwork- the result could well be lots of stable orange spots all over the place. They certainly aren`t symptomatic of a problem with either the paint or it`s application.

[cuthound]

Oh and I forgot to mention, they painted it sky blue after we agreed 'squirrel grey'!!

 

 

MtB

Maybe the squirrels had turned blue due the recent cold weather