I Have been Deemed Not to Be A Continuous Cruiser

[John V]

I have respect (tinged with a touch of jealously) for proper CCers and very little for those who try to bend rules for their own benefit. and I agree totally with T.D.H.'s post.

It definitely shows up a major flaw in C&RT's investigations department

[Alan de Enfield]

So - it goes full circle :-

 

Is C&RT's Boat/Location Logging System Fit for Purpose?

[Hawkmoth]

 

So - it goes full circle :-

 

Is C&RT's Boat/Location Logging System Fit for Purpose?

 

I think it's fairly obvious that it isn't.

Bob

[John V]

42

[magpie patrick]

 

You would think so wouldn't you, - but the point is surely what has led them to believe somebody who cruises so extensively has come onto the radar, it calls into question the reliability of the accusations they have made against others potentially, particularly those who don't move any where near as much as John does, that is why it's a matter of 'public interest' even if John's case does turn out to be easily sorted.

 

Indeed, even if John has gone via the direct route (and as he has gone via Birmingham he hasn't) that's 191 miles and 79 locks, and more or less from the southern end of the system to the northern end. Any system that flags that up as non-compliance is deeply flawed!

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Indeed, even if John has gone via the direct route (and as he has gone via Birmingham he hasn't) that's 191 miles and 79 locks, and more or less from the southern end of the system to the northern end. Any system that flags that up as non-compliance is deeply flawed!

 

 

 

That could have been done in 100 hours (say a week) and he has not moved for the following 51 weeks.- non-compliant as a CCer, but - my understanding of the OP was that C&RT class him as a "Boat with home mooring" and he therefore does not need to comply, but, has to wait for any "left over" winter moorings.

[cotswoldsman]

Ok it is sorted but still extremly worrying. As I am on the phone I am a bit restricted.

I was logged 13 times at the same bridge on the Staffs and Worc now I knew this as I has a copy of my logging. So when I spoke to Parveen just now she started by telling me I was bridge hopping I asked where and she told me about being logged 13 times at the same bridge. I then asked (knowing the answer already) if she could give me the dates of all those logging, this was followed by a bit of a silence........ She then said April 2014 I then asked what dates in April she then said April 12 and when I asked what other dates she said ah all on one day!!! In all fairness to Parveen she did say all she does is look at the logging and if she sees repeating at one place she does not then sit down and analyse the dates. Parveen has now sorted everything including making sure the system knows I am a CCER.

I does however give me great concern that my non compliant e was based on one day this year and she had not looked to see until I asked her to that at the start of the year I was in Gloucester and last logging 8 days ago was just outside Wigan. Why am bothered not for myself but for other cc'ers who might not have been so vigorous to sort it out.

The having a home mooring we have put down to BW

I am happy to accept Parveen apology and I shall purchase my Winter Mooring in 30 mins by when Pardeen tells me the computer will be sorted. I live to fight another day.

Just one question remains "is the logging system fit for purpose?"

Edited October 2, 2014 by cotswoldsman

[Guest]

Ok it is sorted but still extremly worrying. As I am on the phone I am a bit restricted.

I was logged 13 times at the same bridge on the Staffs and Worc now I knew this as I has a copy of my logging. So when I spoke to Parveen just now she started by telling me I was bridge hopping I asked where and she told me about being logged 13 times at the same bridge. I then asked (knowing the answer already) if she could give me the dates of all those logging, this was followed by a bit of a silence........ She then said April 2014 I then asked what dates in April she then said April 12 and when I asked what other dates she said ah all on one day!!! In all fairness to Parveen she did say all she does is look at the logging same and if she sees repeating at one place she does not then sit down and analyse the dates. Parveen has now sorted everything including making sure the system knows I am a CCER.

I does however give me great concern that my non compliant e was based on one day this year and she had not looked to see until I asked her to that at the start of the year I was in Gloucester and last logging 8 days ago was just outside Wigan. Why am bothered not for myself but for other cc'ers who might not have been so vigorous to sort it out.

The having a home mooring we have put down to BW

I am happy to accept Parveen apology and I shall purchase my Winter Mooring in 30 mins by when Pardeen tells me the computer will be sorted. I live to fight another day.

Just one question remains "is the logging system fit for purpose?"

Sorry John but the explanation is a bit weak isn't it? Logged in one place 13 times on one day, what sort of numpty would log a boat 13 times in one day, in the same place

 

- is that what they are saying has happened??

[cotswoldsman]

Sorry John but the explanation is a bit weak isn't it? Logged in one place 13 times on one day, what sort of numpty would log a boat 13 times in one day, in the same place- is that what they are saying has happened??

Yes it is the same on the copy of the log I have happy to post it when I am on my computer

[matty40s]

John, out of interest, did Stan have the same issue, or has he behaved himself?

[Guest]

Yes it is the same on the copy of the log I have happy to post it when I am on my computer

I find it incredible that she claimed she didn't normally check the dates, that is a fundamental point surely in helping to determine if somebody is moving sufficiently?

[cotswoldsman]

John, out of interest, did Stan have the same issue, or has he behaved himself?

Hehe as he is does not do Internet he does not have a copy of his log. Not done his winter mooring yet was going to do them both at the same time yesterday but never got passed stage 1

[Dharl]

13 times in one day!!!! that is unbelievable, even more so that they didn't do a a double check on the dates / times of those spotting's.

 

 

Surely someone has to enter in the details to a handheld scanner or similar rather than an automatic recorder!!

[Arphamoe]

Much as I hesitate to castigate individuals, as Cotswoldsman has explained, Parveen seems to be in need of some advanced training in reading data! Either that or those in charge of the logging system need to go back to basics and ensure, before any action is taken, that the system is in fact sound and fit for purpose! When I renewed my licence this year online, CRT response showed me as a continuous cruiser when I have only ever had a permanent mooring. Easily resolved by return email, but it shows yet again that the system is not accurate. From reading so many posts where the system is being called into question - where is the evidence that CRT are double-checking the process in detail?

 

In a previous life as an investigator (to a pretty high level) I always double-checked any data sets for accuracy before action - seems that CRT enforcement should be spending more time checking their own systems for accuracy! If they don't, the farce that will ensue when any Court asks to see verification of the evidence when all the 'mistakes' are highlighted by any defendant will be monumental!

 

Please, CRT, for your, and our sakes, show that you do listen.

[cotswoldsman]

13 times in one day!!!! that is unbelievable, even more so that they didn't do a a double check on the dates / times of those spotting's.

 

 

Surely someone has to enter in the details to a handheld scanner or similar rather than an automatic recorder!!

Just re looked 13 times on 3 April 2014 and the next one 17 April at Wolverley Bridge so 14 days later

[b0atman]

Well lucky that it was you imagine some other poor boater getting that .

[nine9feet]

Much as I hesitate to castigate individuals, as Cotswoldsman has explained, Parveen seems to be in need of some advanced training in reading data! Either that or those in charge of the logging system need to go back to basics and ensure, before any action is taken, that the system is in fact sound and fit for purpose! When I renewed my licence this year online, CRT response showed me as a continuous cruiser when I have only ever had a permanent mooring. Easily resolved by return email, but it shows yet again that the system is not accurate. From reading so many posts where the system is being called into question - where is the evidence that CRT are double-checking the process in detail?

 

In a previous life as an investigator (to a pretty high level) I always double-checked any data sets for accuracy before action - seems that CRT enforcement should be spending more time checking their own systems for accuracy! If they don't, the farce that will ensue when any Court asks to see verification of the evidence when all the 'mistakes' are highlighted by any defendant will be monumental!

 

Please, CRT, for your, and our sakes, show that you do listen.

 

Did I not read on the forum somewhere recently that CRT are purchasing a new bespoke system to replace the existing process? Expected to be in use sometime next year?

[phill]

Much as I hesitate to castigate individuals, as Cotswoldsman has explained, Parveen seems to be in need of some advanced training in reading data! Either that or those in charge of the logging system need to go back to basics and ensure, before any action is taken, that the system is in fact sound and fit for purpose! When I renewed my licence this year online, CRT response showed me as a continuous cruiser when I have only ever had a permanent mooring. Easily resolved by return email, but it shows yet again that the system is not accurate. From reading so many posts where the system is being called into question - where is the evidence that CRT are double-checking the process in detail?

 

In a previous life as an investigator (to a pretty high level) I always double-checked any data sets for accuracy before action - seems that CRT enforcement should be spending more time checking their own systems for accuracy! If they don't, the farce that will ensue when any Court asks to see verification of the evidence when all the 'mistakes' are highlighted by any defendant will be monumental!

 

Please, CRT, for your, and our sakes, show that you do listen.

 

You are, unfortunately, missing the point completely. This data set is only used to bully boaters. in the ultimate to take away their licenses and start a process that is intended to end in taking away their home. It's a draconian (see Nigel Moore for reasons how and why there are better sanctions they could use) and unnecessary process but it's not really intended to stand up in court.

 

If, at the end of this process, the boater stands their ground and challenges the data and reports, they will withdraw. If the boater finds some other way to placate the beast - and money is its favourite smell - it will also withdraw.

 

Then they start over again with the next person who finds themselves at the bottom of this food chain.

 

Unfortunately (again) this has the support of a vociferous and malicious minority of boaters and a couple of very powerful lobbyists.

 

CRT are completely unaccountable and, as this year's events have shown, totally out of control.

 

On the plus side it appears than the staff on the ground are humans and will when approached manipulate this system to the benefit of the boater. Provided the forelocks are tugged hard enough and the obsiquiesence is complete. Also, if you know the right person to speak to your can cut through the crap.

 

In the meantime, many of the less articulate are feeling threatened and bullied in the worst possible way - with threats over their homes.

Edited October 2, 2014 by phill

[MtB]

I am going to try and make this a short post. I have been trying to sort out my Winter Mooring for some reason the CRT system shows that I have a home mooring though I have been CCing for 8 years. During that time I have cruised about 4,000 miles.

 

 

Surely you of all people, should know it isn't a question of distance traveled... D)

 

Pleased you got it sorted and yes, it is a damned good illustration of the shortcomings of the system.

 

 

MtB

[BlueStringPudding]

So have CaRT had 13 different staff and volunteers logging boats at the same bridge on the same day? (Which is a painful waste of resources). Or has one person clicked "beep" 13 times when reading your boat number?

 

Both point to advanced twonkishness.

Edited October 2, 2014 by BlueStringPudding

[Chalky]

From what's been said it must be a relatively simple job for someone who's IT competent to cleanse the CaRT database and remove duplicate entries on the same day. Alternatively query it looking for distinct records which would have the same effect.

[cotswoldsman]

So have CaRT had 13 different staff and volunteers logging boats at the same bridge on the same day? (Which is a painful waste of resources). Or has one person clicked "beep" 13 times when scanning your license?

Both point to advanced twonkishness.

I think they have tried to send the details and pressed send 13 times bit like trying to post on Facebook sometimes but then someone should pick that up before thinking I had been sighted 13 times IMO

[magpie patrick]

I'm not normally a CRT basher, in fact I think they do a difficult task very well in many cases, but checking facts has not, historically, been a strong point of theirs has it?

 

Things like introducing mooring restrictions not only without evidence, but without a coherent case spring to mind, and authorising the use of a mooring in Upton for a trip boat without establishing who owned the landfall end of it and asking them...

[John V]

Twonkishness is a lovely word..........

 

The trouble is now, if the logging system really has this many holes in it and where, on another nearby thread suggestions are being made as to how to get round any possible geotagged photo log

.

Where the hell do C&RT go from here?

 

If people claiming to CC and just shuffling a few miles up and down a short distance truly are the major problem they appear to be (certainly by posts they seem to be in certain areas) some sort of system of monitoring/enforcing is needed for the benefit of boaters as a whole.

 

It seems that a minority of boats who insist on pushing the rules as far as they can, are going to make things more complicated for the genuine ccers which is a great pity

 

Surely there must be some system that is not too onerous on users, is difficult to evade and can be cost effective?

 

edit for duplicated phrase

Edited October 2, 2014 by John V

[magpie patrick]

Where the hell do C&RT go from here?

 

 

 

Checking their own data perhaps? The flaw in this case seems to have been that the decision maker didn't check the dates on 13 successive sitings