London 'Houseboats'

[Hawkmoth]

Again, you are completely missing the point. Unless you mean 'people shouldn't live on boats'

Not if the facilities can't cope. I think that it is pretty well documented that there has been an explosion on boats over the last few years, many are "CC" to keep costs down, or simply because they can't afford a mooring.

The canals are, these day's, primarily a leisure facility, and should not be turned into a massive housing estate.

I'm not saying "get rid of all the live aboard CCers, but at what point does the canal grind to halt, or the CCer from outside just visiting can't get a mooring.

Bob

[John Williamson 1955]

 

 

I can also remember when it was almost impossible to find unfurnished rentable property ( protected) but plenty of furnished (not protected)

And the furniture was a bed with a lively mattress, a chair, a table and a wardrobe, with maybe a two ring hotplate (with only one ring working) on the table, all rescued from skips. Been there, done that, scratched the T-shirt to bits...

[phill]

I suggest you look at the London Boaters group on Facebook. A lot of the members there are admittedly CC'ing in East London solely because they can't afford a flat. Whilton Marina are currently reported to be selling at least one bottom end boat a week to optimistic youngsters who are heading to London to CC there because they can't afford the rents.

 

In a way, I could be considered as someone who lives on a boat because I can't afford London rents on my wages, though I my case I took a boat on a residential mooring as a much preferred alternative to renting a flat, to the extent that if I hadn't found a mooring, I'd still be living in my house.

Being a member of said group you're wrong and just wishful thinking. I hadn't been there for a while and just checked there's even a post using the words 'starboard' and 'port' - you must admit a bit above 'pass the special brew'

Not if the facilities can't cope. I think that it is pretty well documented that there has been an explosion on boats over the last few years, many are "CC" to keep costs down, or simply because they can't afford a mooring.

The canals are, these day's, primarily a leisure facility, and should not be turned into a massive housing estate.

I'm not saying "get rid of all the live aboard CCers, but at what point does the canal grind to halt, or the CCer from outside just visiting can't get a mooring.

Bob

It's accepted by everybody including CRT that the facilities in London are not up to scratch.

 

As my signature says.... blame the poor.

Actually I'll pull you up on one other thing; who gets to say the canals are primarily for leisure? Is that a law?

 

Or just a fight?

[NigelMoore]

I first began working in London in 1980, as an industrial temp worker earning roughly £50/week. I shared a room in Chelsea by Battersea Bridge with my sister, and we paid £14/week for it.

 

There was room for only one single bed [i slept on the floor], and we shared a bathroom on the landing with everyone else on that floor. It had a tiny wardrobe in an alcove at one end, and a gas hob cantilevered over the sink in the alcove at the other end – but it sufficed.

 

Living accommodation in a nice part of town, within walking distance of work, for less than 15% of a low wage packet. I don’t know how that compares with the situation today, but even back then it seemed a pretty good deal.

[Sabcat]

Why do you see it as a problem that the makeup of the boating population is different to the general population ?

 

after all it is a free choice to become a boater and I have never seen discrimination against anyone taking it up.

 

So just because the makeup of the community does not fit with your idea of "right" why should it change?

 

You're asking why I think something is a problem in reply to a post in which I said "it isn't a problem in and of itself"? I've also not said it's right or wrong. It's worth thinking about though, why the cut is predominantly of interest to old, white, men, perhaps if we knew the answer we would indeed be able to make a judgement as to the rights or wrongs of the situation, but we don't, so we can't.

 

I suppose when the boat licence covers the cost of the system and we no longer rely on a grant from the rest of society we can push such question completely from our minds.

[junior]

I am 33. Last year I was paying £500 per month rent on a farm in Melton Mowbray. Since having a ride on a canal boat at Stoke Bruerne when I was 12 I've always had the idea in the back of my mind of having my own but it was not practical while I was in the forces.

I woke up one morning last year and though "what am I doing wasting this money, I may as well chuck £500 in the bin every month". I went out and bought a boat. Now I can't imagine myself ever living on land again.

 

My point......

 

It is possible for someone to buy a boat as an alternative to renting AND embrace the lifestyle/community and not have to fit into JUST one of the 2 categories that many people on here think there is.

[Hawkmoth]

Being a member of said group you're wrong and just wishful thinking. I hadn't been there for a while and just checked there's even a post using the words 'starboard' and 'port' - you must admit a bit above 'pass the special brew'

 

It's accepted by everybody including CRT that the facilities in London are not up to scratch.

 

As my signature says.... blame the poor.

Actually I'll pull you up on one other thing; who gets to say the canals are primarily for leisure? Is that a law?

 

Or just a fight?

I didn't say totally. Yes they are "primarily for leisure" these days.

Bob

[John Williamson 1955]

Being a member of said group you're wrong and just wishful thinking. I hadn't been there for a while and just checked there's even a post using the words 'starboard' and 'port' - you must admit a bit above 'pass the special brew'

 

I'm also a member and read the group most days, which is how I get the impression of the posters in it that I do.

[phill]

I didn't say totally. Yes they are "primarily for leisure" these days.

Bob

That will forever be 'The Law of Bob' because it sure ain't written anywhere else.

[Hawkmoth]

That will forever be 'The Law of Bob' because it sure ain't written anywhere else.

Who said law? it's simply a matter of reality.

Bob

[phill]

I'm also a member and read the group most days, which is how I get the impression of the posters in it that I do.

Seems a little pointless to make such a statement that can be so easily disproved by looking at the timeline but have it your way John.

 

Here's the page;

https://m.facebook.com/groups/73933281285?ref=bookmark

 

 

How many posts fit your criteria? I found one and even that was just someone asking for a boat to rent cheapish.

Edited September 27, 2014 by phill

[Lady Muck]

This is where people near me (who earn £25 a day cash in hand) are living. My boating mate just been talking to them.

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154612860290247&set=a.10152665319260247.1073741825.836310246&type=1&theater

 

This is the same mate who made a documentary on child prostitution in Rotherham several years ago, it was aired by the BBC but largely ignored.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Lady Muck

[phill]

This is where people near me (who earn £25 a day cash in hand) are living. My boating mate just been talking to them.

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154612860290247&set=a.10152665319260247.1073741825.836310246&type=1&theater

 

This is the same mate who made a documentary on child prostitution in Rotherham several years ago, it was aired by the BBC but largely ignored.

Link doesn't seem to work

[b0atman]

Yes the boaters are primarily leisure which is what kept the canals open.

However more people are becoming live aboards and CRT need to accept this and come to terms with it.

Yes live aboards who need to be in an immediate area need catering for by more offside moorings, marinas etc.

These mooring will need to allow live aboards who are not residential in that mooring for more than 10 months per year.

This should get them away from the Residential planning permission problem area and allow more moorings.

This system works ok on the Lincolnshire coast for chalet and caravan owners.

So 2 months spread over the year go on holiday take the boat out or stay somewhere else.

works great if CRT grasp the mettle and works for a sensible solution and makes money not the big stick approach which costs them and us money.

[twbm]

It is reasoned. That you have no answer is simply a reflection of the emptiness of your little sneer.

 

Community is not how you describe it fortunately, most of us live in communities, if you don't I understand your bitterness.

 

You really don't deal well with viewpoints at odds with yours do you?

Which part of your initial put-down was I expected to answer?

Not bitter (or sneering) at all, but if pigeonholing folk who don't agree with you in your preferred wicked stereotype helps you get through the day, crack on.

I could describe myself as a member of any number of communities: the street I live in, the town, small business owners, people who's kids in their twenties don't stand a cat in hells chance of buying a house in the foreseeable future, boaters who like to actually go boating .... but I don't for one minute seek to suggest I have any common purpose with other people who's opinion or circumstance I happen to randomly share, that any of those groupings have any sort of corporate rights or expectations, or that alleged membership somehow justifies any action taken in their name. The word 'Community' has been used far too often to seek to justify dubious motives and occasionally unlawful activity. That is what annoys me.

[John Williamson 1955]

Seems a little pointless to make such a statement that can be so easily disproved by looking at the timeline but have it your way John.

 

Here's the page;

https://m.facebook.com/groups/73933281285?ref=bookmark

 

 

How many posts fit your criteria? I found one and even that was just someone asking for a boat to rent cheapish.

One day's posts out of how long? Although very few of the posts over the months I've been following the page say explicitly that "I live on a boat because I can't afford a flat", the general tone of many of the posts implies that this is the case. There's also a selection process in that the poorest liveaboards can't afford to get online very often, so anecdotal evidence from neighbours needs to be considered.

 

I was on my way back to my moorings last weekend, and met a boater bringing a boat into London because he and his girlfriend couldn't afford a flat near work. So, of the boaters I spoke to over the weekend, that's 50% of them are living on a boat because they can't afford a flat. I didn't ask the other one I was sharing a lock with on the way out why she lives afloat, but she was also a continuous cruiser.

 

I follow a coach drivers' page, and very few of the posts on there specifically mention the reasons for driving a coach for a living.

 

Unless, of course, you know differently because you choose to live on a boat in East London, living a pleasant life while cruising along the Lea and Hertford Union, chatting with the affluent boat owners there..

[Alan de Enfield]

Yes the boaters are primarily leisure which is what kept the canals open.

However more people are becoming live aboards and CRT need to accept this and come to terms with it.

Yes live aboards who need to be in an immediate area need catering for by more offside moorings, marinas etc.

These mooring will need to allow live aboards who are not residential in that mooring for more than 10 months per year.

This should get them away from the Residential planning permission problem area and allow more moorings.

This system works ok on the Lincolnshire coast for chalet and caravan owners.

So 2 months spread over the year go on holiday take the boat out or stay somewhere else.

works great if CRT grasp the mettle and works for a sensible solution and makes money not the big stick approach which costs them and us money.

 

Being a caravan site owner in Lincolnshire I would say that - yes - it does work but not as you suggest.

 

you cannot just take your caravan away (or not use it if is a 'static') for the odd weeks throughout the year - the Planning permission will actually state that the Site must be closed and water and electricity 'cut-off' for the period, Owners can visit the site during daylight hours for repair or maintenance, but cannot stay overnight.

 

Currently boat 'leisure' moorings alongside do not need Planning Permission, but Leisure Carvan 'moorings' do need "Leisure Use Planning Permission" It could be opening a huge can of worms if you start comparing Boat Morings to Caravan Parks.

 

C&RT provide about 2,000 miles of moorings, some of which are residential, they are not under any obligation to provide sufficient moorings in any one place to meet demand - there would seem to be an unavailabilty of land to develop any more Marinas in the central London area, and if such land could be found, the price premium which would have to be paid, would mean that Moorings would be priced such that those that 'need help' would be unable to pay for them.

 

Limehouse & Poplar moorings are already priced at £10,000 per annm, and there are oft quoted stories of moorings fetching £12 - £15,000 at auction.

The people that are being mentioned in this thread are quite likely to be on 'minimum wage' (£1200 per month) and will not be able to afford to pay for a mooring, so providing more moorings at the same price would not be a solution, providing 'cheap' / subsidised moorings would be a way forward but C&RT are a commercial operation not a 'Charity' - the users of the rest of the system would call 'foul' and want the money to be used to keep the rest of the system maintained.

 

C&RT are under no obligation to provide long term moorings.

[b0atman]

CRT are under no obligation to provide long term moorings but should look at investment and return like any business .

Moorings being paid for if they own the land is surely a good business strategy.

[Alan de Enfield]

CRT are under no obligation to provide long term moorings but should look at investment and return like any business .

Moorings being paid for if they own the land is surely a good business strategy.

 

Exactly my point :

 

Do C&RT own suitable land in central London ?

What is it currently used for and what is the current income ?

What investment would be needed to convert it from its present usage to a marina ?

Will they get an acceptable ROI and improved income ?

 

Will it help the 'minimum wage earners' looking for a central London mooring ?

 

I would (maybe mistakenly) expect C&RT's business analysts and Estates Dept to have already considered the options, and the fact they have not opened up any new long term moorings / marinas, to indicate that either they dont hold any suitable land, or it is not economically viable.

[Tom Richmond]

I am 33. Last year I was paying £500 per month rent on a farm in Melton Mowbray. Since having a ride on a canal boat at Stoke Bruerne when I was 12 I've always had the idea in the back of my mind of having my own but it was not practical while I was in the forces.

I woke up one morning last year and though "what am I doing wasting this money, I may as well chuck £500 in the bin every month". I went out and bought a boat. Now I can't imagine myself ever living on land again.

 

My point......

 

It is possible for someone to buy a boat as an alternative to renting AND embrace the lifestyle/community and not have to fit into JUST one of the 2 categories that many people on here think there is.

Here here!

 

London has a housing problem. London has a traffic problem. London has a gun crime problem, gang problems, pollution problems... CRT shouldn't have to deal with it? Then someone else should manage the canals and waterways in London.

 

Congestion charge seems to work quite well for traffic. Not sure what happens to the revenue... Discuss.

[blackrose]

 

Take the last quote from Mr Ros along with this The need to find affordable housing has had a bad effect on life as a boater at least for some of us who have known it when it was quieter, from him I think it's pretty clear where he's coming from. He was here first, everyone else can cock off and live in a shipping container away from his "wonderful alternative lifestyle" that "should be protected".

Yes, since I was living on boats around the capital long before Mr Ross, he can cock off too!

Edited September 27, 2014 by blackrose

[phill]

 

You really don't deal well with viewpoints at odds with yours do you?

Which part of your initial put-down was I expected to answer?

Not bitter (or sneering) at all, but if pigeonholing folk who don't agree with you in your preferred wicked stereotype helps you get through the day, crack on.

I could describe myself as a member of any number of communities: the street I live in, the town, small business owners, people who's kids in their twenties don't stand a cat in hells chance of buying a house in the foreseeable future, boaters who like to actually go boating .... but I don't for one minute seek to suggest I have any common purpose with other people who's opinion or circumstance I happen to randomly share, that any of those groupings have any sort of corporate rights or expectations, or that alleged membership somehow justifies any action taken in their name. The word 'Community' has been used far too often to seek to justify dubious motives and occasionally unlawful activity. That is what annoys me.

Yes, I thought you might consider yourself to part of a community or two. So what gives you the right to look down your nose at other people who may see themselves as part of a community.

 

As for pigeon holing folk - that's your bag not mine, I'm just taking issue with you ( the individual) for doing exactly that.

 

Why should you be surprised that your derision attracts derision?

[Starcoaster]

I am 33. Last year I was paying £500 per month rent on a farm in Melton Mowbray. Since having a ride on a canal boat at Stoke Bruerne when I was 12 I've always had the idea in the back of my mind of having my own but it was not practical while I was in the forces.

I woke up one morning last year and though "what am I doing wasting this money, I may as well chuck £500 in the bin every month". I went out and bought a boat. Now I can't imagine myself ever living on land again.

 

My point......

 

It is possible for someone to buy a boat as an alternative to renting AND embrace the lifestyle/community and not have to fit into JUST one of the 2 categories that many people on here think there is.

 

/\ This exactly. I'm 36.

 

My thinking was, I could either use my money for the deposit on a mortgage I could struggle to pay for 25 years, work to fund, and then hope that when I was of retirement age, I'd be fit and healthy enough to sell the house and buy/move onto a boat.

Or, I could compromise on the boat I got, have it now while I am still definitely fit enough to manage it and spent hopefully the latter half of my life on the canals, while changing and reducing the amount and type of work I do in order to enjoy the life I have now, while I am still young, and not be a wage slave hoping to make it to old age to live the lifestyle I want.

 

The only way you'd get me back into a house now would be if I was in a vegetative state and unable to scream my head off about it.

[NigelMoore]

 

. . . while I am still young . . .

 

Yes - but you and Junior are both in the over 21 bracket [i.e. oldies].

 

Of course you would seek to justify the position and ostensible privileges of age.

[Starcoaster]

I'm not sure I follow, can you clarify please? I strongly suspect that of independent boat owners, Junior and I are well down the younger range of the age category.