Some new boater questions :)

[consideringharry]

Hello all!

Well i've had an enjoyable evening having a poke around this forum - what a find!...I'm now giving very serious thought into getting a boat partly to avoid paying an annoyingly high percentage of my wages to rent in London, and also as (virtually) a young architect architect I fancy having a project as given the house price situation in this country I won't be buying one of those anytime soon...not that i'm bitter or anything...also if I boat-it for a few years, i have something saleable at the end, if I go back to land!!

I know London moorings are gold dust and pricey when they come up so won't enquire about that - my plan is maybe moor close-ish to London and commute in (i'd have mail sent to the midlands - as I go back weekly for work anyway)- I work remotely and with some flexibility so it should suit. Anyway I have a few questions which are probably covered elsewhere a thousand times but hey...

- Assume paying for a proper mooring is a whole lot more secure and convenient than 'continuously cruising' - with those costs and power, insurance, licence and maintenance how much reasonably can one expect to pay over the cost of the boat? - assume this is a rough per ft measure? I think i'd worry about security, going on holiday if it was just moored on the canal - I'm generally out in the daytime. How do people find CCing in London - can you find a space!?!

 

- Are wooden boats a big no-no? I keep seeing rather charming (often very looooooong) old boats for sale for what seems like reasonable amounts? Do they need taking out the water mega-often? Are GRP boats nasty to live in (I'd also considered something like a bayliner as an option).

 

- How much is a survey? assume this is a must when buying a boat?

 

- Is a 70ft boat a more pleasant thing to live on than the little ones? Do costs shoot up for the longer boats?

 

- Would 20ish grand get a serviceable boat? I'd have to part finance and assume a bank loan (not marine mortgage) is the easiest option?

 

- Is condensation / cold a problem with living aboard? Any other big issues, assume toilets are one!

- I see the odd boat for sale without an engine - are they expensive to install if I wanted to cruise the canals? Can you just bolt an outboard on? As an old car enthusiast I do quite like an engine, I assume all the nice v8 mercruisers are for river and coastal boats and canal boats make do with little teeny things?!

Sorry about the essay, any advice would be ace! - thanks for reading

Cheers,

Harry.

[Graham Davis]

Welcome Harry.
First suggestion, hire a narrow boat for 2 weeks and see how you get on.

[Murflynn]

I would poke around the forum for another week or three.

You will get conflicting advice and some nonsense in the replies to your questions in this thread, however all these topics have been covered many times in previous threads, and you must draw your own conclusions from the spectrum of opinions found there.

 

.......... and the Welshman's suggestion is very valid.

[consideringharry]

Cheers! Oh I never underestimate the validity of suggestions from the Welsh. My mum provides them endlessly. Yes, hire seems a good idea!!

[Grace and Favour]

Welcome to the forum cHarry,

 

Previous posts are bang-on. There is already oodles of posts on the forum on the questions you raise.

 

Costs will always be dearer for a longer boat, normal maintenance, painting / refurbishment and moorings are often based per foot.

 

Because renting property is expensive is not the best reason to live on a boat. Boats can be just as expensive - (a fact that many will attest to)

 

CC'ing in London is not easy, I believe. And will consume substantial tracts of your time.

 

You may be able to buy a 'passable' narrowboat boat for £20k - but it is quite likely to need a fair amount of maintenance to make it comfortable/safe/seaworthy/acceptable.

 

Depending upon which area of London you are working in, the cost of moorings alone (if you can find them) may appear fairly expensive.

 

If Harlow is not too far out of the centre for you, Roydon Marina may be worth looking at.

 

And please DO rent a narrowboat for a few weeks, (from a proper hire company, please) and preferably during the winter.

 

You will be glad you did.

[Phil Ambrose]

Welcome Harry, crikey what a list, rather dooes show zero knowledge so boy have you got a steep learning curve ahead of you. Do as has already been suggested and just to help you on your quest, yes Mercruisers do belong on serious river/sea going boats, canal craft do not need an excess of power as the speed limit is in the region of 3 or 4 mph. Even if you had a boat capable of more if you (illegally) open up you would "bottom" because the water is shallow.

I would concentrate on NBs, far better suited to your needs, GRP as far as living aboard does require more than you may be capable of providing. Yes you can live on them, I did for 10 years with my wife but that was not on the canal system. As far as length is concerned the costs are by and large proportioal to length. Many singles live on 30 to 40 foot boats very successfully.

Do your research and don't hesitate to come back with as many questions as you like.

Phil

[junior]

How do people find CCing in London - can you find a space!?!

 

 

Define London, that has a big impact on the answer.

[bigste]

Hello Harry and welcome. I cannot offer London advice except to say I hope you are thick skinned. Some of the replies on here might make your blood boil. Anything to do with London and continuous cruisers brings out the worst in many people.

[kevinl]

Harry, mate, you be better off going to Scotland and ask it we're independent yet You literally have so much "missed the boat" on living in London cheap on a narrowboat, you and a 1.000 others have been on here asking that. As has been said: can you live on a boat, can you stick to the CC rules or afford a marina.

Your Mayor Boris Johnston (what were his parents thinking when they gave him that as initials) has it in for you along with your landlords C&RT because your a dirty, smelly bunch of pests, living on the Regent's canal running engines and generators. it probably can be done but I personally wouldn't expect too much help of someone doing it. Just what I've picked up on here I live 180 miles away so what do I know.

K

[consideringharry]

Oh thanks for all these replies - useful indeed . OK well I think i'll leave the idea of CCing around London alone then. A mooring somewhere seems more sedate, secure and less likely to attract rage. If I can get into central London in an hour or so (using Oyster would be good / within M25) I'd be reasonably happy. But if mooring + maintenance + bills + paying down a loan, etc,. etc are heading towards a grand a month, I might as well stay on Land I suppose - my work is mostly remote anyway, and I need to return to the midlands periodically - it's just the pull of the bright lights, etc...Anyway, will rent a boat, or at least Airbnb on one for a few nights to see if it's an experience I like Thanks again anyway, apologies if I'm covering old ground - will continue to comb through the site to educate myself!

[Phil Ambrose]

Harry, please don't think we are trying to put you off, its just that we as a collective have between us made all the painfull mistakes, the costly ones and the plain silly ones.

The reality is that to live on a boat you have to love boating and all that it entails. Many people never give a thought to the fact that apart from the financial side of things there are the fundamental things like, Poo, you need to carry it in a cassette to a disposal point or if you have a pump out toilet, you have go to a pump out station. Water, you need to find a tap and fill your tank weekly. Electricity, you have to generate your own and even then you need to be very sparing with it. Coal and gas has to be hauled down the towpath (often muddy)

For these reasons alone many of us take a marina mooring as services are more readily on tap (easier to get) but residential berths are hard to come by.

If you love boating stick with it, we are here to help, if its just cheap housing you are after then that ship has sailed (excuse pun)

Whatever your decision I wish you luck in whatever you choose to do.

Phil

[consideringharry]

Cheers Phil! Oh not put off completely I think a marina would definitely be more me, but realise that life on a boat involves challenges not faced on land - I think I would enjoy most of the hands-on aspects but yes, will do lots of research and get me some experience!

[consideringharry]

Ahh, my head's aching with all this forum reading. It's a great resource though. I think i'm discouraged from cruising (and from having a petrol cruiser!) - at least for now, so would be thinking about a boat on a Mooring. I had noticed this: http://sadler.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=366210 which looks good from a size point of view Looks like you could make the inside rather nice too in a warm, homely way.

Are wooden hulls problematic? Presumably longevity isn't an issue if the thing's been around since 1936?! How often would it need to be lifted out and re-blacked? - assume this isn't a minor task at 70ft? Are wooden sides as big a deal as when mated with a steel hull?

The ad states it's been 'Blacked, checked, recaulked in August 2014. Bow completely replaced, all waterline planking replaced and all other planking replaced where necessary. stem and stern posts, new oak keelson. External cabin sides replaced 2010. In Dock for maintenance in August 2014'

 

If it did need to be made mobile at any point, would a larger outboard be up to pushing it along?

Any advice gratefully accepted

[Ray T]

With regard to owning a wooden NB this thread may help:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=69190&page=1

 

Also The wooden Canal Boat Society may have some guidance:

 

http://wcbs.org.uk/

 

The butty in question may have an elum / rudder like this:

 

 

If so it will be difficult to fit an outboard engine without surgery, possibly ruining the originality of the rudder or a whole new fabrication may be needed.

Koukouvagia of this parish has converted a butty elum to have hydraulic drive.

 

His photo:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=38225#entry689806

Edited September 21, 2014 by Ray T

[consideringharry]

Ahh thanks! why didn't I find that?! Same boat mentioned I note...Love the idea of a timber boat, but maybe more than I can chew...

Maybe I'll buy a motorhome

[John Williamson 1955]

Ahh thanks! why didn't I find that?! Same boat mentioned I note...Love the idea of a timber boat, but maybe more than I can chew...

 

Maybe I'll buy a motorhome

Buy a steel boat. It'll be a lot easier to live in than a motorhome, even if you don't have a home mooring, just don't ask me how I know....

 

As for the wooden butty you mentioned, they can go from the state of the one on Apolloduck to this:-

In depressingly few years if the maintenance isn't kept up, and the one by the bank may even be too far gone to get her into a dock to work on in one piece. I think she's still floating...

Incidentally, docked and blacked, etc. on a wooden boat of that age just means you know the annual date to book the drydock for a fortnight or more each year. I'd love a wooden boat, but I can't afford the time and money they need to keep afloat.

Edited September 21, 2014 by John Williamson 1955

[matty40s]

note the boatshed advert...

safety equipment - - - - bilge pump

[consideringharry]

Ah just noticed the edit with the hydraulic drive! ingenious!!

ANNUAL dry docking?!? really?! Maybe i should just live on the thing in the Marina car park?! Pretty much everything I read about boats scares the crap out me - I'm thankful I've not got trigger happy on eBay as has been the case with cars

[Phil Ambrose]

Harry you will be fine if you put your sensible head on, wooden boats are very labour intensive and costly, I say this as I have 2 friends who have them, there was a third but he failed to maintain what was his home, he's now in a trailer.

Confine your search to Narrow Boats as they are eminently suited to life on the canals. Don't discount GRP boats but finding one suitable as a home on the canals will be challenging.

Phil

[John Williamson 1955]

Ah just noticed the edit with the hydraulic drive! ingenious!!

 

ANNUAL dry docking?!? really?! Maybe i should just live on the thing in the Marina car park?! Pretty much everything I read about boats scares the crap out me - I'm thankful I've not got trigger happy on eBay as has been the case with cars

<Chuckle> With a wooden boat, in my experience, docking is annual, if it's left for two years, you need to do three times the amount of work next time.

 

Docking a steel boat is normally for slightly less than a week every two or thee years, at a cost in London of about £700 - £1000 including paying someone to do the blacking for you. Depending on the state of the hull, it may need some plating work, and mine is likely to be costing me £3000 or so within the next few years. She is, however, a Springer and well into her 40s, and the price I paid took the work needed into account.

 

Living on a boat can be cheap for a while, if you cut corners and don't have a home mooring, otherwise, it's a lifestyle choice, not a financial one.

[consideringharry]

Well thanks for all guidance thus far - will put my sensible head on! Guess that means I shouldn't entertain that either then?..

http://yorkshire.boatshed.com/versilcraft__mirage-boat-151247.html

Wouldn't fit under the bridges anyway...

[John V]

That is a lovely boat, I could be tempted....... ..............but not for long!

 

 

eta .....SWMBO would blow a gasket!!!

Edited September 21, 2014 by John V

[Lady Muck]

Hello Harry, I am actually in London so I do have local knowledge. Some answers:

 

I know London moorings are gold dust and pricey when they come up so won't enquire about that - my plan is maybe moor close-ish to London and commute in (i'd have mail sent to the midlands - as I go back weekly for work anyway)- I work remotely and with some flexibility so it should suit. Anyway I have a few questions which are probably covered elsewhere a thousand times but hey..

 

Depends - there is always availability in Roydon Marina as already mentioned, plus it's not so hard to pick up a West London mooring via the CRT website. But if you want to moor in East London, you can expect a very long wait indeed. Five years is how long it took my friend to get a mooring near me in Tottenham. Here's the CRT link https://www.crtmoorings.com/auctions/search.php?type=all

- Assume paying for a proper mooring is a whole lot more secure and convenient than 'continuously cruising' - with those costs and power, insurance, licence and maintenance how much reasonably can one expect to pay over the cost of the boat? - assume this is a rough per ft measure? I think i'd worry about security, going on holiday if it was just moored on the canal - I'm generally out in the daytime. How do people find CCing in London - can you find a space!?!

 

I wouldn't recommend to cc, now, it's becoming unsustainable - another 500 boats arrive every year to cc in the capital. Somethings gotta give before long, I reckon, the infrastructure certainly can't cope - I am sick of overflowing bins and wading through raw sewage.

- Are wooden boats a big no-no? I keep seeing rather charming (often very looooooong) old boats for sale for what seems like reasonable amounts? Do they need taking out the water mega-often?

 

Wooden boats own you, they need drydocking more often and for a longer time. They can't be neglected like some people neglect steel boats and get away with that neglect.

Are GRP boats nasty to live in (I'd also considered something like a bayliner as an option).

 

Damp duvet - that's all I hear about in winter from friends that live on GRP - not for me.

- How much is a survey? assume this is a must when buying a boat?

 

Depends - a survey in a drydock is cheaper than one where they crane you out because of the cost of the crane. and if you know naught about boats, it's essential.

- Is a 70ft boat a more pleasant thing to live on than the little ones? Do costs shoot up for the longer boats?

 

Yes but it depends on how much cruising you want to do, friends who cc say they would not have anything longer than 40foot. I would not go longer than 56'6'' (my boat) because I do go up North every few years - I wouldn't get up the Calder and Hebble if I were longer.

- Would 20ish grand get a serviceable boat? I'd have to part finance and assume a bank loan (not marine mortgage) is the easiest option?

 

You could get a reasonable 40 foot narrowboat

- Is condensation / cold a problem with living aboard? Any other big issues, assume toilets are one!

 

If you don't manage it, it can be, more so I'd say than cold. Toilets, yeah, you'll get different opinions on which are best

Well thanks for all guidance thus far - will put my sensible head on! Guess that means I shouldn't entertain that either then?..

http://yorkshire.boatshed.com/versilcraft__mirage-boat-151247.html

Wouldn't fit under the bridges anyway...

London has some of the lowest bridges on the canal system. Add to that a lack of dredging on the Regents and I would not recommend anything other than a canal boat (narrow or wide) a weed hatch is essential, too.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Lady Muck

[Athy]

Harry, to get an idea of what you could expect to get for your money, type "Apollo Duck Narrowboat" into your search engine. This is the largest second-hand narrowboat web site in Britain. You can apply filters, including price. Please note that many, perhaps most, s/h narrowboats sell for less than their asking price, so if you have £20,000 to spend, you could reasonably look at boats up to three thousand pounds more than that.

 

But don't forget that your start-up costs will include a survey (maybe £300, plus charges for pulling the boat out of the water and pushing her back in unless she is on hard-standing), licence (say £600 per year), insurance (probably cheaper than car insurance), mooring fees (file under "piece of string: length of").

 

Go to a marina which has boats for sale (brokerage, we jargoneers call it). In the Midlands, Whilton Marina has the biggest selection, and it's right by the A5. They will allow you to go on board the boats so you can get an idea of what you'll get for a certain price.

 

Boat hunting is FUN!

And time consuming.

And frustrating.

But still fun.

[Naughty Cal]

 

Damp duvet - that's all I hear about in winter from friends that live on GRP - not for me.

They are doing something wrong then!

 

Our duvet has never been damp and we are only onboard for 4 or 5 nights a week.