Solar: New Age Hype?

[FORTUNATA]

Over the past few weeks I've been considering "getting into" the solar PV industry. Not on a large scale really and more out of interest than business. I've spent some time finding information about the main companies and it seems two very big producers of panels are India and China. I believe there was some big legal dust-up between China and the U.S.A. as well since China has been churning out pretty reasonably priced panels. Even India has been out-priced.

Some people I spoke to in China feel solar power is the future. Such companies are now doing whole street light systems that use solar power, often in third world countries. Yet, I get the feeling solar manufacturing must be very competitive in China and Europe.

So, I'm interested in any feedback. Do people feel that my decision to possibly import solar PV's is the act of a wise man or the delusions of a bloody fool? Seriously, there is a mentality that the industry is a new age racket, maybe because a few homeowners got ripped off by fly-by-night companies.

Anyway, I plan to set up a system on my own boat. I'm aware we're heading for cloudier weather so not expecting too miracles.

[Sabcat]

If you understand the technology and can select a product to import based on it's price/performance and know where that will fit in the existing UK market then you're a wise man. If not then you're a bloody fool who should steer clear of things you don't understand.

 

As for solar being hype, I think we're well past that now.

[Alan de Enfield]

There is a growing market for certain types of panels :

 

1) My sister 'farms' in sussex - they have just established a 'solar farm' of 4000 panels. A German company are installing and running it - she gets a 'huge' 6 figure sum for the annual use of the land + a percentage of the revenue for electricity generated, can rent the land for grazing sheep and gets the land back in 20 years.

 

2) Our local Farmer (who runs alongside our land) is currently applying for Planning Permission for 23,000 solar panels to run a 230 acre 'solar farm' If anyone is remotely interested what it will look like, here is a link to the Planning Application - you can then link to all the documents. plans etc.

http://planningonline.n-kesteven.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=N8JFNKLLHKE00

Edited September 4, 2014 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

I got a quote for solar panels on the roof just before the government dropped the subsidy, low and behold the company gave me a new lower quote. They are charging what they think the market will stand based on the payback time. Nothing to do with the cost of installing or the cost of the actual panels.

[MtB]

I got a quote for solar panels on the roof just before the government dropped the subsidy, low and behold the company gave me a new lower quote. They are charging what they think the market will stand based on the payback time. Nothing to do with the cost of installing or the cost of the actual panels.

 

Quite. And without the feed-in tariff the whole solar thing is a non-starter. So get importing and grab the money while you can. The Govt may turn the tap OFF at any time...

 

The boat market is a different animal entirely.

 

 

MtB

[Phil Ambrose]

I got sold on Solar some 10 or 12 years ago, at the time everybody was saying "waste of time and money" and "they don't work" .............guess what? yup you've got it , they do.

Phil

[matty40s]

Fortunata, you have really missed the bus on this one.

Perhaps instead of spending weeks composing articles on out of date electrical devices and discussing the minutiae of their workings, you had read some of the interesting and up to date information on this wonderful forum, you might be there already.

[Pete & Helen]

There is always a market for product at the right price and quality. I believe there is still room for a supplier of solar products in the marketplace. and the boating community is quite a large market

[Graham Davis]

1/ Have you got the money to import panels by the container load and their controllers?

2/ Have you got the paperwork needed to be a Registered fitter?

3/ Do you have the building expertise to be able to assess whether roofs are able to take the loads?

[MtB]

There is always a market for product at the right price and quality. I believe there is still room for a supplier of solar products in the marketplace. and the boating community is quite a large market

 

I agree. It's a 'marketing' bit that is missing. No-one out there is actively promoting to boaters a simple solar installation at an affordable price. A marketing campaign offering boaters a 100W SOLAR SYSTEM PROFESSIONALLY INSTALLED AND WORKING IN A DAY, ALL FOR £295, TWELVE MONTH GUARANTEE, I think would sell tons of them.

 

Most boaters have clocked the solar idea now, but those who don't have it (75% of boats) are unsure about how to go about getting it.

 

Most peeps would want more than a 100W system, but up-selling once you have the enquiry is easy.

 

Sorely tempted to have a bash at is myself actually...

 

 

MtB

[Alan de Enfield]

 

I agree. It's a 'marketing' bit that is missing. No-one out there is actively promoting to boaters a simple solar installation at an affordable price. A marketing campaign offering boaters a 100W SOLAR SYSTEM PROFESSIONALLY INSTALLED AND WORKING IN A DAY, ALL FOR £295, TWELVE MONTH GUARANTEE, I think would sell tons of them.

 

Most boaters have clocked the solar idea now, but those who don't have it (75% of boats) are unsure about how to go about getting it.

 

Most peeps would want more than a 100W system, but up-selling once you have the enquiry is easy.

 

Sorely tempted to have a bash at is myself actually...

 

 

MtB

 

Certainly a good idea but the practicalities of installing a system in Manchester one day and London the next means that a lot of time is wasted.

 

Maybe do it initially in a restricted area and if it takes off 'licence' others to expand your coverage

[MtB]

 

Certainly a good idea but the practicalities of installing a system in Manchester one day and London the next means that a lot of time is wasted.

 

Maybe do it initially in a restricted area and if it takes off 'licence' others to expand your coverage

 

Yes. The orders and installations would need to be gathered together and organised geographically. Concentrating on marketing close to one marina at a time might be a good idea. Sell half a dozen in one place and fit all of them in two days. The move on to another area.

 

 

MtB

[Lady Muck]

There is a growing market for certain types of panels :

 

1) My sister 'farms' in sussex - they have just established a 'solar farm' of 4000 panels. A German company are installing and running it - she gets a 'huge' 6 figure sum for the annual use of the land + a percentage of the revenue for electricity generated, can rent the land for grazing sheep and gets the land back in 20 years.

 

2) Our local Farmer (who runs alongside our land) is currently applying for Planning Permission for 23,000 solar panels to run a 230 acre 'solar farm' If anyone is remotely interested what it will look like, here is a link to the Planning Application - you can then link to all the documents. plans etc.

http://planningonline.n-kesteven.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=N8JFNKLLHKE00

I see a lot more of this abroad, where it's sunny. I worked in the Marche region of Italy last spring and took the train up the coast. I saw many parking lots which were shaded with panels. I see a lot of panels on factory roofs in China - the electric can be a bit unreliable out there so factories have back up gennies and batteries for the days when the power goes down, they now supplement this with solar. It's everywhere once you leave the UK.

My friends used to live off grid in a Finca (Spanish farm house). They said they had to take the panels in at night because they get stolen! I don't think anyone realises the value of them in the UK yet. Still don't think many people outside of boating really 'get' solar.

[FORTUNATA]

1/ Have you got the money to import panels by the container load and their controllers?

2/ Have you got the paperwork needed to be a Registered fitter?

3/ Do you have the building expertise to be able to assess whether roofs are able to take the loads?

Who said anything about fitting? So far as houses are concerned, it's strictly regulated. This is really another sub theme but suffice it to say, even D.C. can be dangerous. You have to use the correct cable size, for example. Then, the tricky bit is watt hours. Domestic supply companies work in KW hours and really it's to do with matching your watt hours to your amp hours. I think the money is in domestic supply as this is a substantial outlay for a home-owner. Even so, this is not what I had in mind.

[FORTUNATA]

Fortunata, you have really missed the bus on this one.

Perhaps instead of spending weeks composing articles on out of date electrical devices and discussing the minutiae of their workings, you had read some of the interesting and up to date information on this wonderful forum, you might be there already.

None of that has changed. Recently, I joined Vintage Radio Forums. I often write my articles there on radio circuits. One radio I currently have is 1939 and is an on-going project, although no great rush to complete it. Anyway, on the site I met a few redundant ex TV service engineers who, to this day, enjoy fixing up old sets. I haven't yet asked if anyone actually makes any money doing it, but it's doubtful.

Yes, solar energy is more practical. You can still write complex articles about it, though. When all is said and done, photovoltaics is pretty similar to semiconductor electronics so, if you understand how diodes and transistors work, that's most of the battle. Then the more practical side is the common sense load calculations, cable sizes, regulators and so forth.

Still, funny thing is even on the vintage radio site I have a reputation for unusual articles.

 

[Phil Ambrose]

Lady Muck recalls seeing many factory roofs covered in PV arrays while in Italy, well anyone boating in the Fens can't help but have noticed a large number of factories/warehouses in Ely which have the whole of their roofs covered, I don't make a habit of looking at factory roofs so I can't say for sure but I'm guessing this is replicated around the country.

Phil

[FORTUNATA]

Lady Muck recalls seeing many factory roofs covered in PV arrays while in Italy, well anyone boating in the Fens can't help but have noticed a large number of factories/warehouses in Ely which have the whole of their roofs covered, I don't make a habit of looking at factory roofs so I can't say for sure but I'm guessing this is replicated around the country.

Phil

When you think about it, solar energy is maybe the source of life. Without sun, we get no plants. No plants means, animals can't eat and predators in turn can't eat either.

The same goes thing goes for outer space. Billions of starts provide massive energy. Planets around those stars also get sunlight.

So, using the vast amount of energy provided by the sun is pretty logical.

On the practical side, LED lights are no longer so expensive. I found a few in Aldi £4.99 each. For my own boat I am considering 100 watt panels. This means, powering a few LED lights at night from solar charged batteries is pretty basic stuff.

Also, I often wonder why we waste so much A.C. Most of the A.C. I use on my boat is to power DC equipment run at 12 volts. If I bought directly 12 volt DVD players, for example, I could just plug into DC sockets. In fact, domestic supply was initially D.C. but back then even radios needed 90 volts. Now, with simple 12 volt appliances, we can power the whole lot from solar energy, directly.

Do houses really need inverters?

[Paul C]

Bizarre stuff!!!! Houses use AC because the national grid is AC to allow easier (cheaper) transformation from high voltage supply lines to 230V AC as used in the household. The AC-DC argument occurred, and was settled, a LONG time ago.

 

I don't know about your house but my house doesn't have an inverter.

 

My boat does though - because it has 230V AC available in addition to 12V DC.

 

Ok, if you think that exclusively 12V DC would be better/cheaper, please find me the following items and give their cost:

 

Microwave

Hitachi power drill battery charger

MacAllister Lithium battery charger

Nikon DSLR battery charger

PMR cradle

3x laptop battery chargers, all slightly different spec

SDS drill

circular saw

jigsaw

[MtB]

We use AC in houses because it is inherently safer than DC at higher voltages.

 

Because the voltage passes through zero 100 times a second you get 100 chances a second to let go. No chances with DC as your muscles spasm and keep on gripping.

 

 

MtB

[FORTUNATA]

We use AC in houses because it is inherently safer than DC at higher voltages.

 

Because the voltage passes through zero 100 times a second you get 100 chances a second to let go. No chances with DC as your muscles spasm and keep on gripping.

 

 

MtB

I am known to tinker with high voltage DC equipment (currently 120 volts). Nowadays, though, practically all D.C. equipment is 12 volt. So, when you plug in your DVD player, you get a supply of 240 volts to the device. However, that is stepped straight down to 12 volts inside the set. My DVD combi is only about 50 watts and internally is 12 volts, like any laptop.

So, my point is I see no reason why you can't power your TV's and stuff on direct, low voltage D.C., generated by solar and wind power. Straight into 12 volt sockets. I mean, even my synth is 12 volts. I plug it into an AC socket but that is immediately stepped down to 12 volts again.

As to electric fires and power tools, then we do need high voltage AC for that.

I know high voltage AC is easier to supply to districts and cities and homes but do you know what...? One firm in China I know has just powered up whole streets using solar cell arrays. Mostly in sunny countries. Maybe in the future some countries will minimise the need for traditional electrical supply.

On my boat, I'm hoping to see to what extent I can use green energy. I know there are limits and I'm not going to be able to power up an electric bar fire but I guess with lighting and water pumps it will be O.K. We shall see.

[Paul C]

Yes a number of items internally are 12V DC, but the fact remains that consumers don't want to modify them, and that doing so would probably invalidate the guarantee anyway, and what with 230V AC supplied in houses, the majority of everyday electrical household items are going to be 230V AC. Boaters are free to go and purchase 12V DC items, but there will usually be a price premium, because even though there might be less 'electrical gubbins' in them, the production run for 12V DC is low compared to AC, and economy of scale means the latter works out cheaper to manufacture. So I see it as entirely right that boaters should work out for themselves that buying normal household items + an inverter costs less than camping/boating 12V DC items.

 

The solar street - just solar panels, or a battery bank too, or a grid connection too? How to they power the lights and telly at night?

[FORTUNATA]

Yes a number of items internally are 12V DC, but the fact remains that consumers don't want to modify them, and that doing so would probably invalidate the guarantee anyway, and what with 230V AC supplied in houses, the majority of everyday electrical household items are going to be 230V AC. Boaters are free to go and purchase 12V DC items, but there will usually be a price premium, because even though there might be less 'electrical gubbins' in them, the production run for 12V DC is low compared to AC, and economy of scale means the latter works out cheaper to manufacture. So I see it as entirely right that boaters should work out for themselves that buying normal household items + an inverter costs less than camping/boating 12V DC items.

 

The solar street - just solar panels, or a battery bank too, or a grid connection too? How to they power the lights and telly at night?

Not sure how common or affordable DC equipment is. Maybe it will catch on in a few years.

Your last question, I think at night it will just be from charged battery banks. Then the following day, the banks get more charge from the arrays.

 

 

[FORTUNATA]

There is always a market for product at the right price and quality. I believe there is still room for a supplier of solar products in the marketplace. and the boating community is quite a large market

It seems the general view is solar power is a reasonable thing to get into. Probably I'll get myself some PV's and controllers with LED lights and see how it works on my boat. It's a pity we can't get grants for green energy as that would make it easier.

[Detling]

You also need to remember that a boat 12 volt supply is any voltage between 12 volts and 14.5 volts depending on if batteries are being charged or not. My daytime voltage is rarely below 13 volts as the solar is charging the batteries. There are also often voltage spikes in a boat caused by pumps and fridges switching on or off, very short in time but quite possibly well over 30 volts. All this makes using a boats 12 volt supply to power expensive equipment directly dodgy. Items designed for use in cars, which have a similar supply are fine but they will have supply smoothing and overvoltage protection built in. A 12 volt television is usually designed to run off a smooth accurate 12 volt supply, not a 'dirty' boat supply. If you fit a dc12 volt to 12 volt converter to smooth the supply there is no problem, otherwise you will need to find some way to protect your kit.

If you only have things connected after dark and don't run the engine you should have no trouble.

[David Mack]

Also, I often wonder why we waste so much A.C. Most of the A.C. I use on my boat is to power DC equipment run at 12 volts. If I bought directly 12 volt DVD players, for example, I could just plug into DC sockets. In fact, domestic supply was initially D.C. but back then even radios needed 90 volts. Now, with simple 12 volt appliances, we can power the whole lot from solar energy, directly.

Do houses really need inverters?

If you wired your whole house up for 12V the currents would be about 20 times higher, meaning you would need 20 times as much copper. And if you were going to provide 12V dc and 240V ac distribution there would be even more copper, and twice as many fittings etc. etc.