Red Diesel EU challenge

[furnessvale]

It is subject to considerable abuse and that is not fair to honest folks. The only fair way forward is to have separate tanks for red and white.

IMO a much fairer way is for the UK to ignore those bits of EU legislation that don't suit, just like the others do, but that just isn't cricket is it?

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[steven wilkinson]

Like the French, Germans and Spanish!

[Hawkmoth]

Like the French, Germans and Spanish!

No, we would pay our fines.

Bob

[Paul C]

The whole muddle might end up with a compromise agreement reached, for example:

 

CCers cannot declare 100% domestic - they'd be forced to declare 20/80 at most.

boat yard with a passing boater would be forced to sell at max. 60/40 in the summer, 20/80 in the winter.

boat yard selling to a moorer of the same yard, could sell at 0/100 if the mooring is a residential one, otherwise max. is 10/90

anything in cans is okay at 0/100

 

or something like that? Who knows what will occur, I don't really understand why EU have decided to take UK to court, given that its such a small market being affected - ie the reason why the UK government showed common sense and allowed the current self-declaration system to be implemented. And I don't know how keen the UK government will be to fight their corner in court, or whether they'll simply accept a judgement or do an (unfavourable to boaters) deal before the court appearance etc.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Paul C

[nb Innisfree]

The whole muddle might end up with a compromise agreement reached, for example:

 

CCers cannot declare 100% domestic - they'd be forced to declare 20/80 at most.

boat yard with a passing boater would be forced to sell at max. 60/40 in the summer, 80/20 in the winter.

boat yard selling to a moorer of the same yard, could sell at 100/0 if the mooring is a residential one, otherwise max. is 90/10

anything in cans is okay at 100/0

 

or something like that? Who knows what will occur, I don't really understand why EU have decided to take UK to court, given that its such a small market being affected - ie the reason why the UK government showed common sense and allowed the current self-declaration system to be implemented. And I don't know how keen the UK government will be to fight their corner in court, or whether they'll simply accept a judgement or do an (unfavourable to boaters) deal before the court appearance etc.

Just for clarity, the first figure should denote propulsion, e.g. a 60/40 split is 60% propulsion, 40% domestic. 0/100 is 100% domestic.

[Paul C]

Just for clarity, the first figure should denote propulsion, e.g. a 60/40 split is 60% propulsion, 40% domestic. 0/100 is 100% domestic.

 

Thanks - just realised! (I always get the order muddled up when buying fuel) - I've edited my post to make it more sense.

[jenlyn]

The whole muddle might end up with a compromise agreement reached, for example:

 

CCers cannot declare 100% domestic - they'd be forced to declare 20/80 at most.

boat yard with a passing boater would be forced to sell at max. 60/40 in the summer, 20/80 in the winter.

boat yard selling to a moorer of the same yard, could sell at 0/100 if the mooring is a residential one, otherwise max. is 10/90

anything in cans is okay at 0/100

 

or something like that? Who knows what will occur, I don't really understand why EU have decided to take UK to court, given that its such a small market being affected - ie the reason why the UK government showed common sense and allowed the current self-declaration system to be implemented. And I don't know how keen the UK government will be to fight their corner in court, or whether they'll simply accept a judgement or do an (unfavourable to boaters) deal before the court appearance etc.

I'm a CCer, and each time I start my engine, it's producing hot water, electric and heating. So I don't buy your view.

[Paul C]

I'm a CCer, and each time I start my engine, it's producing hot water, electric and heating. So I don't buy your view.

 

A CCer moves their boat. A residential moorer, is not obliged to.

 

There are already guidelines which exist, which state for CCers a 100% domestic declaration is not appropriate, so its no change from now.

 

 

http://www.abnb.co.uk/submenupages/red_diesel.html

Edited July 19, 2014 by Paul C

[jenlyn]

A CCer moves their boat. A residential moorer, is not obliged to.

 

There are already guidelines which exist, which state for CCers a 100% domestic declaration is not appropriate, so its no change from now.

You need to do some research :-) where does it say "CCers"?

Even your third party link says nothing about CCer's?

So have you the correct link?

Edited July 19, 2014 by jenlyn

[Guest]

A CCer moves their boat. A residential moorer, is not obliged to.

 

There are already guidelines which exist, which state for CCers a 100% domestic declaration is not appropriate, so its no change from now.

Doesn't that rather depend on how much fuel you are buying and how far you intend to move. A small amount of fuel bought may well be bought at 100% domestic if you are not planning to move for 14 days.

[GUMPY]

You need to do some research :-) where does it say "CCers"?

Even your third party link says nothing about CCer's?

So have you the correct link?

End of the answer to the last question.

That document was word for word the same as HMRC issued at the time.

Just in case you cant find it

 

Q. What about residential boat owners where nearly all fuel is for domestic purposes what can they declare?

 

A. We have recognised the status of residential boat owners whose primary residence is their boat. Some of these will be at fixed moorings or move just a very short distance along the towpath from permanent moorings. If they live aboard the craft permanently and hold certain documentation, such as a Houseboat Licence, Residential Mooring Licence, Council Tax Bill in respect of the mooring, or other peripheral documentation, invoices or bills which provides proof of permanent residency, they may purchase all their fuel at the rebated rate (as if they were a commercial vessel). They will still be required to make and sign a declaration saying that 0% of the fuel is for propelling purposes. It will be the responsibility of the declarant to ensure that they hold the requisite documentation should HMRC wish to check the validity of the declaration made in these circumstances. Continuous cruisers may not declare 0% under these arrangements, even if they reside permanently on their craft, they must declare their actual intended usage for propulsion.

 

So no 100% domestic for you laddie

Edited July 19, 2014 by Loddon

[jenlyn]

End of the answer to the last question.

That document was word for word the same as HMRC issued at the time.

I know, I'm looking at it. The "CCer" bit seems to be elusive.

Paul C obviously has something else I presume....

[jelunga]

IMO a much fairer way is for the UK to ignore those bits of EU legislation that don't suit, just like the others do, but that just isn't cricket is it?

 

George ex nb Alton retired

An even better way is to leave the EU and go back to the Common Market!

 

And show them the English Archers still have two fingers!

Edited July 19, 2014 by jelunga

[Alan de Enfield]

And show them the English Archers still have two fingers!

 

Joe Grundy (and the rest of the Grundy family), the Pargetters, the Wolleys and the Tuckers in addition to the Archers, but I'm not sure about Lynda Snell and her Llamas

[Machpoint005]

An even better way is to leave the EU and go back to the Common Market!

 

And show them the English Archers still have two fingers!

 

A recipe for economic disaster. Where will the inward investment come from? To whom will we sell our products and services?

[jenlyn]

End of the answer to the last question.

That document was word for word the same as HMRC issued at the time.

Just in case you cant find it

Q. What about residential boat owners where nearly all fuel is for domestic purposes what can they declare?

A. We have recognised the status of residential boat owners whose primary residence is their boat. Some of these will be at fixed moorings or move just a very short distance along the towpath from permanent moorings. If they live aboard the craft permanently and hold certain documentation, such as a Houseboat Licence, Residential Mooring Licence, Council Tax Bill in respect of the mooring, or other peripheral documentation, invoices or bills which provides proof of permanent residency, they may purchase all their fuel at the rebated rate (as if they were a commercial vessel). They will still be required to make and sign a declaration saying that 0% of the fuel is for propelling purposes. It will be the responsibility of the declarant to ensure that they hold the requisite documentation should HMRC wish to check the validity of the declaration made in these cases circumstances. Continuous cruisers may not declare 0% under these arrangements, even if they reside permanently on their craft, they must declare their actual intended usage for propulsion.

So no 100% domestic for you laddie

Every ounce of fuel I use can be accounted for in my quest for power generation of one form or another.

Propulsion just happens to be a byproduct. So you may think you have just been a clever chap, but actually your just making an interpretation, along with myself, and everyone else.....

[Naughty Cal]

 

Actually, it is.

 

If we leave aside the immediate self-interest that we all have in not wanting to pay more for fuel, and see how it plays out;

 

Fuel sales is a business that runs on VERY low margins, and price is enormously sensitive to the retailers volumes. Small Garages charge more than big ones, because they have to if they are to make any money.

 

The volumes for a canalside retailer are smaller still, which means that if they start selling white, their prices will be high (remember that Propulsion Red is marginally cheaper than supermarket fuel only because of a 5% VAT rate, and that too would go).

 

So, the future is that retailers will have to choose what to sell. The legitimate demand for red is minimal, so they would sell white. Their price would be greater than roadside (possibly £1.50 per litre).

 

Some people would value the convenience and buy anyway.

 

Others will use cans to refuel at Tesco.

 

The demand reduces, and some retailers stop selling.

 

The lack of retailers means that more people buy from Tesco.

 

This could well kill off canal based fuel sellers.

 

Then we have to consider how much more fuel will be spilled into the canal when people fill from cans...

Petrol at our marina is £1.50 a litre. It doesn't stop people buying it in vast quantities rather than buying in jerry cans from the likes of say Tesco.

[Hawkmoth]

I agree with Jelunga in that I see no need for the EU. the Common Market is a good thing, trade and all that.

The EU is a construct of politicians who want more power. What possible use other than that is it. We argue over all sorts of things and frequently end up with the camel (a horse designed by committee).

I'm not sure about actually getting out, but we should fight like hell to keep a lot more of own laws and rules which they have no business sticking their noses into.

Bob

[Guest]

Petrol at our marina is £1.50 a litre. It doesn't stop people buying it in vast quantities rather than buying in jerry cans from the likes of say Tesco.

That could just be for geographical reasons, and of course the fact that it is illegal to buy petroleum spirit (in containers) above certain quantities (10 litres IIRC.)

I know of no limit on the amount of diesel one can buy in containers, some garages around where I live sell red in 20 litre drums, which have a deposit on them. To the best of my knowledge, you can buy any quantity.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Guest

[jelunga]

 

A recipe for economic disaster. Where will the inward investment come from? To whom will we sell our products and services?

By inward investment do you mean take overs and mergers with foreign multinationals?

Like Cadburys by Kraft? We can well do without that sort of inward investment.

I voted to join a common market not a european state. We either beed to roll back to that concept or withdraw entirely.

The current megalith serves no one except itself and big business especially with the proposed TTIP AGREEMENT

I agree with Jelunga in that I see no need for the EU. the Common Market is a good thing, trade and all that.

The EU is a construct of politicians who want more power. What possible use other than that is it. We argue over all sorts of things and frequently end up with the camel (a horse designed by committee).

I'm not sure about actually getting out, but we should fight like hell to keep a lot more of own laws and rules which they have no business sticking their noses into.

Bob

A very accurately hit nail head

[cotswoldsman]

 

A CCer moves their boat. A residential moorer, is not obliged to.

 

There are already guidelines which exist, which state for CCers a 100% domestic declaration is not appropriate, so its no change from now.

 

 

http://www.abnb.co.uk/submenupages/red_diesel.html

I am on phone so not read link but I am amazed if it defines ccer what happens when that CCer takes a winter mooring for 6 months?

Should add not read link as I am on phone

[Alan de Enfield]

I am on phone so not read link but I am amazed if it defines ccer what happens when that CCer takes a winter mooring for 6 months?

Should add not read link as I am on phone

 

The relevant part cut * Paste for you

 

Q. What about residential boat owners where nearly all fuel is for domestic purposes – what can they declare?

 

A. We have recognised the status of residential boat owners whose primary residence is their boat. Some of these will be at fixed moorings or move just a very short distance along the towpath from permanent moorings. If they live aboard the craft permanently and hold certain documentation, such as a Houseboat Licence, Residential Mooring Licence, Council Tax Bill in respect of the mooring, or other peripheral documentation, invoices or bills which provides proof of permanent residency, they may purchase all their fuel at the rebated rate (as if they were a commercial vessel). They will still be required to make and sign a declaration saying that 0% of the fuel is for propelling purposes. It will be the responsibility of the declarant to ensure that they hold the requisite documentation should HMRC wish to check the validity of the declaration made in these circumstances. Continuous cruisers may not declare 0% under these arrangements, even if they reside permanently on their craft, they must declare their actual intended usage for propulsion.

 

In addition :

 

However, the EU Energy Products Directive specifically refers to 'fuel for the purposes of navigation' (which is reflected in UK law as 'fuel for propelling'), so there is no legal basis for imposing a single standard apportionment to be applied universally that pays no regard to actual usage for propulsion.

 

As a CCer your are continuously 'bone fide navigating' the system (to qualify as a CCer) therefore all of your fuel should be at the full rate.

[fudd]

 

The relevant part cut * Paste for you

 

Q. What about residential boat owners where nearly all fuel is for domestic purposes what can they declare?

 

A. We have recognised the status of residential boat owners whose primary residence is their boat. Some of these will be at fixed moorings or move just a very short distance along the towpath from permanent moorings. If they live aboard the craft permanently and hold certain documentation, such as a Houseboat Licence, Residential Mooring Licence, Council Tax Bill in respect of the mooring, or other peripheral documentation, invoices or bills which provides proof of permanent residency, they may purchase all their fuel at the rebated rate (as if they were a commercial vessel). They will still be required to make and sign a declaration saying that 0% of the fuel is for propelling purposes. It will be the responsibility of the declarant to ensure that they hold the requisite documentation should HMRC wish to check the validity of the declaration made in these circumstances. Continuous cruisers may not declare 0% under these arrangements, even if they reside permanently on their craft, they must declare their actual intended usage for propulsion.

 

In addition :

 

However, the EU Energy Products Directive specifically refers to 'fuel for the purposes of navigation' (which is reflected in UK law as 'fuel for propelling'), so there is no legal basis for imposing a single standard apportionment to be applied universally that pays no regard to actual usage for propulsion.

 

As a CCer your are continuously 'bone fide navigating' the system (to qualify as a CCer) therefore all of your fuel should be at the full rate.

Do you mean, 'they' as (CCers) can't stop for 14 days then? Edited July 19, 2014 by fudd

[cotswoldsman]

Not following that firstly I can moor for 14 days and therefor run my engine to generate electricity and then if I take a winter mooring I do not move I think most ccers like other boaters declare what they use for propulsion having said all that quite often I am not even asked to make a declaration

Still struggling to see where it says anything about ccers

[Paul C]

jenlyn and cotswoldman - these are not my words, but quotes from HMRC (I spent about 2 mins finding a relevant quote albeit from another site, a longer search could find the HMRC guidance on their own website, no doubt) so the point I'm making isn't anything do to with CCing its to do with the fact that HMRC already issue guidance on the way boaters should declare their split; and more rigourous guidance could be a solution to the original issue than simply banning red diesel from boats.

 

The relevant part cut * Paste for you

 

Q. What about residential boat owners where nearly all fuel is for domestic purposes – what can they declare?

A. We have recognised the status of residential boat owners whose primary residence is their boat. Some of these will be at fixed moorings or move just a very short distance along the towpath from permanent moorings. If they live aboard the craft permanently and hold certain documentation, such as a Houseboat Licence, Residential Mooring Licence, Council Tax Bill in respect of the mooring, or other peripheral documentation, invoices or bills which provides proof of permanent residency, they may purchase all their fuel at the rebated rate (as if they were a commercial vessel). They will still be required to make and sign a declaration saying that 0% of the fuel is for propelling purposes. It will be the responsibility of the declarant to ensure that they hold the requisite documentation should HMRC wish to check the validity of the declaration made in these circumstances. Continuous cruisers may not declare 0% under these arrangements, even if they reside permanently on their craft, they must declare their actual intended usage for propulsion.

 

In addition :

 

However, the EU Energy Products Directive specifically refers to 'fuel for the purposes of navigation' (which is reflected in UK law as 'fuel for propelling'), so there is no legal basis for imposing a single standard apportionment to be applied universally that pays no regard to actual usage for propulsion.

 

As a CCer your are continuously 'bone fide navigating' the system (to qualify as a CCer) therefore all of your fuel should be at the full rate.

 

 

Not following that firstly I can moor for 14 days and therefor run my engine to generate electricity and then if I take a winter mooring I do not move I think most ccers like other boaters declare what they use for propulsion having said all that quite often I am not even asked to make a declaration
Still struggling to see where it says anything about ccers