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Andy Kayll

Are People Who Live On Boats Second Class Citizens?

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We cant be any class. Where are we on the census ? NFA = no census form C/O address we do not live there so not put on census.

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We cant be any class. Where are we on the census ? NFA = no census form C/O address we do not live there so not put on census.

That's not true.

 

I was ccing in 2001 and filled out a census form.

 

Iirc my address was "NB Lucy, Grand Union Canal"

 

The census organisers go to great effort to make sure everybody counts whatever their lifestyle though they inevitably fail to get everybody.

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We cant be any class. Where are we on the census ? NFA = no census form C/O address we do not live there so not put on census.

 

The census form requires you to decare where you are residing on the day that you complete the form. I am not aware of any NFA classification, the form simply has boxes for individual letters of an address. If it is a boat, you declare the name of the boat and the location where it is moored on that day. You can do it all on line and there is a phone helpline as well. They managed it in the 19th century without internet or even telephones, so why do you assume it is not possible in the 31st century.

 

If it really is an issue, or if you think the guidance notes need clarifying, perhaps it is something that the ACC could take up (assuming it is not already on their agenda)

 

Edit:- Carl beat me to it

Edited by David Schweizer

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As boaters (livaboards) aren't we by design opting out of mainstream citizenship and opting into our own subcategory of society?

Can we or is this subcategory subject to even trying to attain a position on the ladder that mainstream society is busy climbing?

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The census organisers go to great effort to make sure everybody counts whatever their lifestyle though they inevitably fail to get everybody.

Quite right.

 

In 1911 great efforts were made by the census recorders to record everybody. This included searching derelict buildings and barns, with the help of the local police,to find vagrants and record them.

 

It was the most comprehensive census to that date. Most of those who did not get recorded were female supporters of the suffragette movement who refused to fill in the forms.

 

If you are alive and in this country on the day of the census you are required to be recorded.

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That's not true.

 

I was ccing in 2001 and filled out a census form.

 

Iirc my address was "NB Lucy, Grand Union Canal"

 

The census organisers go to great effort to make sure everybody counts whatever their lifestyle though they inevitably fail to get everybody.

 

Carl, I don't think your experiences of 13 years ago are necessarily relevant today

 

I know of a few people who tried to be included in the recent census but were not able to.

The census organisers needed a 'valid' address to send the form to - They wouldn't send one 'post restrante' and they wouldn't send more than one form to the same address so it was impossible to use a friendly pub etc.

The organiser they spoke to could not come up with a way of getting them a form

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I am boater and proud. Those around me know it and respect me (some even envy me - the nice way -). The only place I found classes is actually within the boat community. It's a paradox, yes.

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Carl, I don't think your experiences of 13 years ago are necessarily relevant today

 

I know of a few people who tried to be included in the recent census but were not able to.

The census organisers needed a 'valid' address to send the form to - They wouldn't send one 'post restrante' and they wouldn't send more than one form to the same address so it was impossible to use a friendly pub etc.

The organiser they spoke to could not come up with a way of getting them a form

I'm sorry but I got my census form by someone banging on the side of my boat, searching for liveaboards and, as far as I'm aware, the same methods were used in 2011.

 

Census coordinators visit hostels and day centres in order to give out census forms to the homeless so I guess your few people were unlucky enough to find someone who wasn't interested in making the effort.

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We cant be any class. Where are we on the census ? NFA = no census form C/O address we do not live there so not put on census.

The first thing I learnt when we moved aboard to live on our boat was Never Ever use the term C/O in our address.

Phil

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"it is now reminding me of, at best a Python sketch" - we used to live in cardboard box in middle o' road until we moved onto t'narrowbort

 

I personally regard politicians as 2nd-class citizens.

 

Please comment on the topic and start your own if you want to contemplate your navel - please read my Forum topic "Contemplating My Navel". Smells like Troll??!!

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Unless you are part of the 1% ruling rich elite, & their lackey politicians who do their coporate paymasters bidding, then these people consider everyone else to be 2nd class citizens & worse.

These people consider us to be way lower than 2nd class citizens. Take someone on the dole, getting the blame for the bankers stealing all the money, getting the blame for the whole of the welfare budget despite the fact they only account for 3% of it, these people are seen as worse than 2nd class citizens my the majority of the population. Now take someone on the dole living on a boat & see how far down the list the others consider them to be.

People who live on boats are not 2nd class citizens, but the system tries its very best to treat you that way, as do a vast proportion of the rest opf the population.

Fight the system.POWER TO THE PEOPLE - Wolfie Smith, Tooting Popular Front.

So have you decided to stop voting for the Conservative party then?

 

Anyway, I would look at the OP's point from the other side. A lot of "stuff" we have is held only tenuously and can be removed from us if we run up debts etc, or even by theft. Houses are an exception to that, not the norm - they are given extraordinary additional protection compared to other stuff. So you can make your mind up whether you want to take advantage of that extra protection (ie live in a house) or not (ie live on a boat). But I don't think it's reasonable to expect that if you decide to say live in a tent on a common, that you should have the same protections as someone in a house. Life just ain't like that. This only makes you a second class citizen if you want it to.

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I'm sorry but I got my census form by someone banging on the side of my boat, searching for liveaboards and, as far as I'm aware, the same methods were used in 2011.

 

Census coordinators visit hostels and day centres in order to give out census forms to the homeless so I guess your few people were unlucky enough to find someone who wasn't interested in making the effort.

 

I dont think the same methods can have been used in 2011, or if they were then the number of people doing the visits were a lot fewer than before. I never saw any census people on the towpath.

Presumably these hostels & day centers have a valid address and therefore were 'on the list'

 

I think it's the usual 'no postcode then we cant proceed further' problem that seems endemic nowadays

Also the fact that as many jobs as possible have been 'downskilled' to minimum wage so the telephone answerers have a menu to work from and it is impossible for them to 'make an effort' in any way

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I think it's the usual 'no postcode then we cant proceed further' problem that seems endemic nowadays

As it is a criminal offence not to fill out a census form I would not have given up at the first apathetic jobsworth hurdle.

 

It sounds more like the usual "Well he told me it couldn't be done so I won't bother doing it" problem that seems endemic nowadays.

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As it is a criminal offence not to fill out a census form I would not have given up at the first apathetic jobsworth hurdle.

 

It sounds more like the usual "Well he told me it couldn't be done so I won't bother doing it" problem that seems endemic nowadays.

 

well you continue to see it as 'apathetic jobsworth' if you like - i'll carry on with my view of minimum wage jobs that have become so restrictive in the interests of cost cutting that it is impossible for the worker to show any initiative

 

 

Personally I didn't bother trying to get on the census at all - so i guess that makes me a monumentally lazy criminal :)

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well you continue to see it as 'apathetic jobsworth' if you like - i'll carry on with my view of minimum wage jobs that have become so restrictive in the interests of cost cutting that it is impossible for the worker to show any initiative

It doesn't matter how our views on the person answering the query differ (I have done minimum wage jobs to the best of my ability, not to the ability that suits the salary) but, if someone cannot provide the answer I require then I am happy to go up the pay scale until I reach a level where the person feels adequately paid enough to help me.

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In 2011 census forms were available at BW Offices well they were at the Wigan Office

 

Exactly, All it takes is a little initiative, and a will to do it to comply. Taken from the RYA web site:-

 

"Every household in England and Wales will be sent a 2011 Census questionnaire. You will receive a big white envelope with a purple C on the front, in March 2011. If you live on your boat it will be sent to the address you are moored at; if you do not receive a census questionnaire by census day (27 March 2011) you should get in touch with the census helpline 0300 0201 1010 (England) or 0300 0201 130 (Wales) to request your copy."

Edited by David Schweizer

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It doesn't matter how our views on the person answering the query differ (I have done minimum wage jobs to the best of my ability, not to the ability that suits the salary) but, if someone cannot provide the answer I require then I am happy to go up the pay scale until I reach a level where the person feels adequately paid enough to help me.

 

you miss the point - it's not the pay rate or attitude of the call center operator that prevents them from being able to help - it's the cost driven menu system and pressure on the 1st line operator to answer as many calls as they can as fast as they can

escalation of calls doesn't happen like it used to either - supervisors now have so many operators to look after that escalation is usually 'we'll call you back'

 

Your views on how call centers work are quite out of date - i agree that in an ideal world operators should be able to show initiative to solve tricky calls but the fact is that in today's 'profit above all else' driven world they do not have the opportunity to do so

 

You dismissing them as lazy jobsworths is doing them a disservice

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Your views on how call centers work are quite out of date - i agree that in an ideal world operators should be able to show initiative to solve tricky calls but the fact is that in today's 'profit above all else' driven world they do not have the opportunity to do so

 

You dismissing them as lazy jobsworths is doing them a disservice

You suggesting that my views on how call-centres work do me a disservice and I see you have quickly changed your tune from "minimum wage labour" to "it's not the pay rate or attitude of the call center operator that prevents them from being able to help"

 

I am well aware of the inability to escalate a call-centre query but I am also aware of how to bypass a call centre completely and talk to somebody who can actually help me.

 

As David says a little initiative usually gets results and if it means avoiding criminal activity I am more than willing to use a little initiative.

 

As a three customer I am used to being dismissed by call-centres which led me to doing a bit of research and getting a direct line to their head office in Scotland which, once the language barrier is overcome, is a far more flexible resource.

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You suggesting that my views on how call-centres work do me a disservice and I see you have quickly changed your tune from "minimum wage labour" to "it's not the pay rate or attitude of the call center operator that prevents them from being able to help"

 

I am well aware of the inability to escalate a call-centre query but I am also aware of how to bypass a call centre completely and talk to somebody who can actually help me.

 

As David says a little initiative usually gets results and if it means avoiding criminal activity I am more than willing to use a little initiative.

 

As a three customer I am used to being dismissed by call-centres which led me to doing a bit of research and getting a direct line to their head office in Scotland which, once the language barrier is overcome, is a far more flexible resource.

 

No, i haven't changed my tune - you misunderstood the point the 1st time so i explained it to you.

 

You also misunderstand the 'disservice' point - You dismissed operators unable to help as lazy jobsworths - You are doing them a disservice

 

David's 'initiative' was 'call the census helpline' so hardly backing up whatever point you are trying to make - oh hang on, your not making a point at all are you - you're just arguing for the love of it so i'm going to stop now

 

Fact is your experience from 13 years ago is not always relevant today - the world has changed - the census being one example

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David's 'initiative' was 'call the census helpline' so hardly backing up whatever point you are trying to make - oh hang on, your not making a point at all are you - you're just arguing for the love of it so i'm going to stop now

 

Fact is your experience from 13 years ago is not always relevant today - the world has changed - the census being one example

What nonsense! I thought I was having a friendly discussion but if you can't take a bit of reasoned debate then you are probably best off backing down.

 

Things do indeed seem to have moved on in the last 13 years as I do not recall census forms being available in BW's offices back in 2001 so it appears to have become even easier for boaters to fulfil their legal responsibilities.

 

The world has indeed changed.

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What nonsense! I thought I was having a friendly discussion but if you can't take a bit of reasoned debate then you are probably best off backing down.

 

Things do indeed seem to have moved on in the last 13 years as I do not recall census forms being available in BW's offices back in 2001 so it appears to have become even easier for boaters to fulfil their legal responsibilities.

 

The world has indeed changed.

 

Which bit do you think is nonsense?

I thought we were having a friendly discussion as well - i genuinely dont see the point you are trying to make given that my point was things have changed and your 13 year old experience is no longer relevant in this case

But now i see you are agreeing with me

 

Bugger all good BW having census forms is if they dont tell anyone they've got them and the census people dont seem to know they have them either

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Which bit do you think is nonsense?

The fact that I am just arguing for the love of it. I never join a discussion that I have no interest in so what you say is nonsense.

 

I am discussing a subject that I have an interest in and have had some experience in.

 

There has only been one other census since the one I mentioned so I don't believe my experience is irrelevant at all.

 

You could argue that the experience that the few people you knew who failed to fulfil their responsibilities is just as irrelevant as it is rumoured that the 2011 census will be the last, if the Tories stay in power so why bring up this story?

 

At least my experience is first party, not a vague anecdote that refers to "a few people".

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It's ironic that nowadays the position of a boat on the network, along with how long it's been there and where it was before, is actively monitored yet the inhabitants are deemed NFA...

The boat may not be fixed but it's current location (and from that the inhabitants) can be found with little effort.

 

If someone wanted to disappear out of the system it's now possibly the most monitored way of living and, rightly or wrongly, that's not going to change so is it not reasonable to expect something back in return? A recognised system of address?

 

For those who choose and pay for a home mooring then something akin to the Mobile Homes Act 2013...

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2013/14/contents/enacted

 

Andy

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The fact that I am just arguing for the love of it. I never join a discussion that I have no interest in so what you say is nonsense.

 

I am discussing a subject that I have an interest in and have had some experience in.

 

There has only been one other census since the one I mentioned so I don't believe my experience is irrelevant at all.

 

You could argue that the experience that the few people you knew who failed to fulfil their responsibilities is just as irrelevant as it is rumoured that the 2011 census will be the last, if the Tories stay in power so why bring up this story?

 

At least my experience is first party, not a vague anecdote that refers to "a few people".

 

If we aren't going to have a census anymore then the whole discussion is irrelevant

 

1st party or not recent experience is more relevant in this case that 13 year old experience - unless you're suggesting i'm making it up with your 'vague anecdote' wording'? I could give you the names of the people i'm talking about that would be an invasion of their privacy

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