Just how representative are we?

[Catrin]

If I make a daft typo I am quite happy for people to take the mick, but I find correcting the spelling and grammar of another adult without invitation to be the absolute height of rudeness. Anyone who did it to me would likely get told so without any mincing of words, and placed on my ignore list.

 

However, there is on the other hand the issue of people deliberately typing in a certain style that the majority of us find hard to read such as, say, text-speak or baby talk. I think it is reasonable to point out that it is hard to read, and suggest that the poster posts in standard English, but accept that they're probably not going to change it if the effectation is part of their "forum image" or personal style.

I understand that point of view, and I do think that a lot of the correction of grammar, etc has been very poorly done. I suppose my question now would be: why do we get so upset about correction of language, but wouldn't get upset about other things we get wrong?

 

For example, if I posted that "X happened", and that was untrue, then I might feel a bit daft if I were corrected, but I wouldn't feel slighted, why then would I feel angry if I am corrected for mispelling something, or misusing a recently coined vernacular phrase? In both cases I would have been wrong. Don't mistake me here, I understand your point completely, but I am trying to get to grips with what the difference is between the two.

 

When I see some of the correction of language that I have seen on the forum I cringe, but, having said that I did recently make suggestions about how someone's writing could be better laid out to make it easier to read.

 

I suppose that it's the teacher in me, and before someone comes back with "that's all teachers can do, criticise", I would say that my wishes were always to help my students to present their ideas better. If I am stopping reading something because it is hard to read, then the poster is losing out, I won't be the only one who gives up.

 

With regard to your second point. There are still many people coming to the Internet for the first time, and they may well not know that it is usual to type in lower case. They may not know that it is usual to use paragraphs, that it is best to continue to use the same pointsize and font, and that these are there to make it easier for their readers. Is it acceptable to let them know? If that is OK, then why not other language based things?

 

Yes, there are people who I generally chose not to read, if they are doing this for a stylistic/personality reason then that is entirely their choice. They know that they are doing it, and must accept that they will lose audience.

 

And in reply to Rod, I object to the word 'snobby'. It's to do with making your posts clearer for others, and not expecting them to do additional work to understand you. Do you also think that we should give up on learning new things because we are no longer at school? I know that I continue to learn about my language all the time.

 

Finally, yes, I know that I make mistakes, I generally spot them after I've hit post - this is despite a long practiced habit of reading, re-reading and honing my writing to try to make it easier for my students to read. My specialisation was IT and Computing, so the presentation of work to others, rather than the writing itself, although as I am also qualified as an English teacher, that must have had an influence on my work.

 

Patois.... (OMG! I've just corrected someone's spelling!)

[David Schweizer]

Patois perhaps? Are you sure it's s he?

Don't worry about it, Hardl.

 

It depends where you look for the spelling Mike, Patois is the corrct spelling for the form of English spoken in Jamaica, officially known as Jamacan Patois. However Second generation Afro Caribbean's living in the UK tend to describe their version of Jamaican Patois as Patwa ( or so I am told).

Patois perhaps? Are you sure it's s he?

 

 

Yes, upon checking it is she.

[Athy]

Thanks David, I was unaware of the form "patwa", and appreciate the explanation.

It does look as if it should be a kind of rice, mind.

[churchward]

I understand that point of view, and I do think that a lot of the correction of grammar, etc has been very poorly done. I suppose my question now would be: why do we get so upset about correction of language, but wouldn't get upset about other things we get wrong?

 

For example, if I posted that "X happened", and that was untrue, then I might feel a bit daft if I were corrected, but I wouldn't feel slighted, why then would I feel angry if I am corrected for mispelling something, or misusing a recently coined vernacular phrase? In both cases I would have been wrong. Don't mistake me here, I understand your point completely, but I am trying to get to grips with what the difference is between the two.

 

When I see some of the correction of language that I have seen on the forum I cringe, but, having said that I did recently make suggestions about how someone's writing could be better laid out to make it easier to read.

 

I suppose that it's the teacher in me, and before someone comes back with "that's all teachers can do, criticise", I would say that my wishes were always to help my students to present their ideas better. If I am stopping reading something because it is hard to read, then the poster is losing out, I won't be the only one who gives up.

 

With regard to your second point. There are still many people coming to the Internet for the first time, and they may well not know that it is usual to type in lower case. They may not know that it is usual to use paragraphs, that it is best to continue to use the same pointsize and font, and that these are there to make it easier for their readers. Is it acceptable to let them know? If that is OK, then why not other language based things?

 

Yes, there are people who I generally chose not to read, if they are doing this for a stylistic/personality reason then that is entirely their choice. They know that they are doing it, and must accept that they will lose audience.

 

And in reply to Rod, I object to the word 'snobby'. It's to do with making your posts clearer for others, and not expecting them to do additional work to understand you. Do you also think that we should give up on learning new things because we are no longer at school? I know that I continue to learn about my language all the time.

 

Finally, yes, I know that I make mistakes, I generally spot them after I've hit post - this is despite a long practiced habit of reading, re-reading and honing my writing to try to make it easier for my students to read. My specialisation was IT and Computing, so the presentation of work to others, rather than the writing itself, although as I am also qualified as an English teacher, that must have had an influence on my work.

 

Patois.... (OMG! I've just corrected someone's spelling!)

I take your point and you are probably right it should not be different from correcting a factual error. However, spelling and grammar indiscretions can be very small and not detract from the actual meaning of what is being written. So at best the correction can seem petty particularly if the original writer was making a serious and heart felt point. In those cases it seems the correction takes on an importance beyond or equal to the original point and the posters meaning and contribution can feel lost or degraded.

 

At worst it can for some be a slight against intelligence which is nonsense. This can of course not be the intent of the correction and be in the mind of the original poster. However, for those that have suffered from years of quite brutal teasing (as only children and the ignorant can) or worse due to Dyslexia, correction of spelling and grammar comes with a lot of baggage. I know this from experience.

 

I never correct people on such things I will ask a question if I have not understood someone's point.

Edited March 5, 2014 by churchward

[Catrin]

 

It depends where you look for the spelling Mike, Patois is the corrct spelling for the form of English spoken in Jamaica, officially known as Jamacan Patois. However Second generation Afro Caribbean's living in the UK tend to describe their version of Jamaican Patois as Patwa ( or so I am told).

Another thing I've just learned about my language, something I didn't learn in 3 years at uni studying Linguistics.

[Rod a mod from Tod]

 

And in reply to Rod, I object to the word 'snobby'. It's to do with making your posts clearer for others, and not expecting them to do additional work to understand you. Do you also think that we should give up on learning new things because we are no longer at school? I know that I continue to learn about my language all the time.

 

 

There is a way of correcting someone with good grace and manners but sometimes it comes across from some posters as "i am well educated and you arn't". Perhaps by pm may be a way?

 

As to do i believe we should stop learning after school is a rather silly question. Of course i dont. You obviously have an interest in the English language and choose to further your education in that direction, i dont. I choose to advance in different directions.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Rod a mod from Tod

[mayalld]

Who's in the inner circle anyway?

 

We'll send you the list when you send us your subs.

[Naughty Cal]

 

We'll send you the list when you send us your subs.

 

I want to know the T&C's before I sign up too anything .........

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

So,,,

Just how representative are we.?

 

I think very representative,,because there is a vast membership,from various backgrounds with varing interest with a broad age group. So it's a great place to gain knowledge I would think.

[Catrin]

I take your point and you are probably right it should not be different from correcting a factual error. However, spelling and grammar indiscretions can be very small and not detract from the actual meaning of what is being written. So at best the correction can seem petty particularly if the original writer was making a serious and heart felt point. In those cases it seems the correction takes on an importance beyond or equal to the original point and the posters meaning and contribution can feel lost or degraded.

 

At worst it can for some be a slight against intelligence which is nonsense. This can of course not be the intent of the correction and be in the mind of the original poster. However, for those that have suffered from years of quite brutal teasing (as only children and the ignorant can) or worse due to Dyslexia correction of spelling and grammar comes with a lot of baggage. I know this from experience.

 

I never correct people on such things I will ask a question if I have not understood someone's point.

Yes, broadly I agree with what you've said here, however....

 

• I am not aware of ever correcting someone's grammar, spelling, etc. I don't believe that I would ever have done it. But... grammar, spelling and punctuation can completely change the meaning of a sentence.

• I know that if I don't understand what someone else has said I won't usually bother with asking a question. There is always something else to read.

I suppose that having had this discussion has allowed me to firm up my own thinking:

 

I don't think grammar, spelling and punctuation should generally be corrected, questions should be asked if there is ambiguity.

 

I do wonder if there is an argument for a 'guidelines before you post for the first time' post - to cover things like: searching for the topic first, capitals, paragraphs, fonts and layout. Then if someone arrives and it is hard to understand what they have said, they can be politely referred to general guidelines.

[bizzard]

Just swept my chimney flue and I kept on sneezing. Not sure if its the soot or I've got the flu.

[Naughty Cal]

Man flu probably

[Guest]

Catrin, on 05 Mar 2014 - 1:20 PM, said:

I do wonder if there is an argument for a 'guidelines before you post for the first time' post - to cover things like: searching for the topic first, capitals, paragraphs, fonts and layout. Then if someone arrives and it is hard to understand what they have said, they can be politely referred to general guidelines.

 

People don't always agree with this though because they somehow think it stifles discussion and a revisit to an often discussed topic can sometimes elicit new information.

 

On another forum that I frequent (and moderate on) there is what I think is a useful feature in that when you type a new post the forum software searches for similar word strings and subjects in the post title and points you to posts with a similar theme. You can the click on the links and decide if the info. you need is in previous postings before you commit to posting your question to the forum.

 

I think it is useful as it cuts down on multiple postings about the same subject.

 

I also think one of the reason people don't use the search facility enough on here is because it needs a fair bit of practice to get it to give you the info. you need.

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Hi ya NC,

I think it was me that said / suggested an inner circle, & if you read the rest of the same post, I tried to refure to the well respected,knowledgeable long term members who also have well honed debating skills & who also tend to be the more articulate members used to posting in or on forums as the 'inner circle.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[mayalld]

 

I want to know the T&C's before I sign up too anything .........

 

1) You send Cash

2) You are a member

[Québec]

Just catching up on this (I'm currently travelling c. 4000 miles from base!)

 

Classic forum thread...one minute I'm following a serious and typically slightly fractious discussion about how representative or not CWDF is, next minute I'm in a Spelling Bee!

 

Back on topic (momentarily), and unless I've missed something along the way, surely the whole point and attraction - for some at least - of CWDF, is that it is an open forum. It does not set out to, nor should it, represent anyone. Were it to be representative, it would have to have a mechanism for a) 're-presenting' the views of its members, and b.) having a mechanism for selecting those who will do that re-presenting.

 

What is probably true is that the membership of CWDF consists of a wider cross-section of the canal boating community than other related groups.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Québec

[Naughty Cal]

 

1) You send Cash

2) You are a member

 

I dont deal in cash.

[mayalld]

 

I dont deal in cash.

 

Very well then,

 

you send your credit card number and the 3 numbers off the back.

[churchward]

Yes, broadly I agree with what you've said here, however....

 

• I am not aware of ever correcting someone's grammar, spelling, etc. I don't believe that I would ever have done it. But... grammar, spelling and punctuation can completely change the meaning of a sentence.

• I know that if I don't understand what someone else has said I won't usually bother with asking a question. There is always something else to read.

I suppose that having had this discussion has allowed me to firm up my own thinking:

 

I don't think grammar, spelling and punctuation should generally be corrected, questions should be asked if there is ambiguity.

 

I do wonder if there is an argument for a 'guidelines before you post for the first time' post - to cover things like: searching for the topic first, capitals, paragraphs, fonts and layout. Then if someone arrives and it is hard to understand what they have said, they can be politely referred to general guidelines.

I was not saying that you do correct people in this way I certainly do not recall any examples I was just adding to the discussion with my own views on the subject and what I do or don't do and give a reasoned argument to your thoughts on correcting facts Vs correcting spelling and why would we see or react to them differently.

 

Guidelines are good but of course few may read them and take it in but it would be useful to have some to refer folk to. We have many sections for different subject matters on this forum but still people manage to ignore them and post all sorts of things in General boating that would come under one of those sub-headings for example. It is never going to be perfect as the forum by nature is a bit of a free-for-all.

Edited March 5, 2014 by churchward

[Naughty Cal]

 

Very well then,

 

you send your credit card number and the 3 numbers off the back.

Would you like the expiry date and registered billing address also?

[mayalld]

Would you like the expiry date and registered billing address also?

 

Well that would be nice, but hardly sporting. I was planning on a bit of social engineering to get the expiry date out of you in a week or so.

[Athy]

I dont deal in cash.

????

Surely you aren't so shady that your cash bounces?

[Naughty Cal]

????

Surely you aren't so shady that your cash bounces?

Not quite!

 

I just very rarely carry cash, very, very rarely actually. Normally deal with plastic. Much easier.

[Athy]

I've met people like that in pubs. "Oh sorry, I seem to have left my money at home".

Yorkshire cunning, I reckon: "Eat all, sup all, pay nowt".

[pearley]

I don't have a sticker

Neither do I, so I don't count either!

 

Actually don't know how to get one and don't have an address to get it if I did know.

Edited March 5, 2014 by pearley