Old hand lamp - can anyone identify the type etc

[Richard T]

I have had this old hand lamp for over 45 years. It was given to me by the owners of St Anns Manor Sutton Bonington. It was missing the parafin light to go onside. By the fitting on the right side it used to be fitted to a coach or railway locomotive. I used to have a 240v light in it and used it as a table lamp. I have now adapted it for use as a headlight on Tyto by mounting on a cctv camera bracket and fitting a 10w Cree flood light inside it. It is removeable so it can be secured when we are not on board. All I need now is a nice brass horn.

Can anyone help identify the origins of this lamp please?

 

 

 

The handle at the top is connected to a rotating screen inside the lamp which enables the side light to be blacked out - with a catch which can be seen at the rear to locate it. The screen has two reflectors on it. The lense is a bulls eye with casting imperfections in it.

 

 

[Athy]

What a beauty - and, if it's as big as it looks, how splendidly "over the top" for narrowboat use. My first thought was that it was a railway guard's van tail lamp, but I am sure they were usually uni-directional whereas yours obviously can shine its light in two directions at once.

 

I look forward to someone more learned than me providing an answer.

[Ray T]

I don't think it is a loco head lamp.

 

Looks like an old level crossing gate lamp to me.

 

Or it could be a guards van lamp

 

A level crossing lamp when in use would have had a red lens though.

 

With the side bracket possible GWR origin?

 

Good looking lamp.

 

I know a man who could paint some nice Roses & Castles on it.

 

ETA scrub the level crossing gate lamp it would need two lens and it is not robustly enough built to withstand the battering it would have had on a gate.

 

A bit more research:

 

A British Railways guards van of a down freight is seen passes Queens Head Sidings Signal Box on 19th September 1964. Robert Ferris writes 'In addition to the central white tail lamp this brake van carries two red side lamps - This side lamp requirement was the result of a new BR rule (introduced circa 1949) applicable to the brake vans of trains which had either an unbraked rear part or were totally unbraked. I am also lead to believe that when in loops or running on relief lines the side lamp nearest to the next facing running line was required to have a white light in place of the red. For information the requirement for two red side lamps had previously been discarded on the GWR with the introduction of their 1933 Rule Book, with the following exception (Rule 121) Where trains travel in the same direction on parallel lines, special regulations for head, side and tail lamps will be issued as necessary. The 1936 General Appendix required On relief lines only one side lamp is required, instead of two and this light must be on the side farthest from the Main running line.'

 

Edited February 16, 2014 by Ray T

[Dorlan]

It's most likely to be a traction engine lamp.

 

See here or here.

 

 

[madcat]

I've got one similar I got at a tat sale, it still has its Parrafin lamp

Shows up on the first link as a railway lamp. Mines not got the side lens

[Ray T]

It's most likely to be a traction engine lamp.

 

See here or here.

 

 

 

What a fantastic site.

[Androo]

 

What a fantastic site.

I 2nd that.

 

It's the same old story: "If only I had the space to store things"

 

They always seem to come back in fashion

[Richard T]

It's most likely to be a traction engine lamp.

 

See here or here.

 

 

Thank you for the link. It looks like it is the left hand one of a pair from a Fowler traction engine lamps. Shame I've not got a pair but I'm pleased to have the one and to be able to use on our boat.

[matty40s]

 

What a fantastic site.

bugger, thats another site on the favourite linkys

[kbarber]

I don't think it is a loco head lamp.

 

Looks like an old level crossing gate lamp to me.

 

Or it could be a guards van lamp

 

A level crossing lamp when in use would have had a red lens though.

 

With the side bracket possible GWR origin?

 

Good looking lamp.

 

I know a man who could paint some nice Roses & Castles on it.

 

ETA scrub the level crossing gate lamp it would need two lens and it is not robustly enough built to withstand the battering it would have had on a gate.

 

A bit more research:

 

A British Railways guards van of a down freight is seen passes Queens Head Sidings Signal Box on 19th September 1964. Robert Ferris writes 'In addition to the central white tail lamp this brake van carries two red side lamps - This side lamp requirement was the result of a new BR rule (introduced circa 1949) applicable to the brake vans of trains which had either an unbraked rear part or were totally unbraked. I am also lead to believe that when in loops or running on relief lines the side lamp nearest to the next facing running line was required to have a white light in place of the red. For information the requirement for two red side lamps had previously been discarded on the GWR with the introduction of their 1933 Rule Book, with the following exception (Rule 121) Where trains travel in the same direction on parallel lines, special regulations for head, side and tail lamps will be issued as necessary. The 1936 General Appendix required On relief lines only one side lamp is required, instead of two and this light must be on the side farthest from the Main running line.'

 

I concur that the lamp isn't any kind of railway lamp; I don't know of any that would shine both ahead/behind through a lens and to the side through plain glass.

 

Sidelamps were far from a 1949 innovation, though the newly-formed British Railways may have felt a need to put the Gas Works Railway on a short leash, hence a new regulation.

 

Sidelamps used to be carried by all trains in addition to the tail lamp. Unlike the tail lamp, whose purpose was to indicate that a train was complete, they had a lens both fore and aft. They were always carried on brackets high on the side of the brake van so that the forward-facing light could be seen by the loco crew when they looked back - this was how they complied with Rule Book instructions requiring them to ascertain that the train was following in a safe & proper manner. There was provision to slide in a red filter behind the rearward-facing lens. On normal double lines both sidelights were required to show a red light to the rear. Where there were additional running lines (slow or goods lines) the red screen was to be removed on the side nearest the main/fast running line. Thus any approaching driver would have a clear indication which line the lamps he could see were on (and hence some idea whether he was improperly approaching the tail of a divided train). Where there was more than one additional running line, the Sectional Appendix would have instructions regarding what sidelamps were to be shown. The goods guard's job was no sinecure!

 

The advent of continuous brakes rendered sidelamps superfluous on passenger trains, but they didn't finally disappear until (I believe) the early 1930s. They continued to be required for freight trains, even fully-fitted, for as long as a brake van was required in rear; I think that changed in the 1960s. Thereafter, sidelamps were only required on unfitted or partially-fitted freights even where a brake van was the last vehicle (which remained a requirement for certain classes of dangerous goods - basically toxic gases and nuclear flasks - until after I left the industry in 1994).

 

For the signalman, sidelamps were usually considered irrelevant - it was the tail lamp that mattered (provided we saw that we could clear back to the box in rear and accept the next train). The exception was when a train passed without tail lamp: if it was other than fully fitted and had no sidelamps either, we were required to treat it as a divided train (but still send the 'Train passed without tail lamp' signal to the box in rear).

 

None of it happens now

[RLWP]

I concur that the lamp isn't any kind of railway lamp; I don't know of any that would shine both ahead/behind through a lens and to the side through plain glass.

Level crossing lamps?

 

Ahead and behind for road traffic, a side glass as a tell-tale for the bobby

 

Richard

 

The OP's lamp is almost certainly off a road vehicle

[Graham Davis]

 

For the signalman, sidelamps were usually considered irrelevant - it was the tail lamp that mattered (provided we saw that we could clear back to the box in rear and accept the next train). The exception was when a train passed without tail lamp: if it was other than fully fitted and had no sidelamps either, we were required to treat it as a divided train (but still send the 'Train passed without tail lamp' signal to the box in rear).

 

None of it happens now

 

Want a bet!!?

 

We still check for "passed complete with tail lamp", and I know of 2 "divided trains" locally in the last 2 years.

I've ever sent "9" and "4-5" once in the last 12 months. (Light had actually gone out)

 

And actually we do look at "side" lights on passenger trains now, especially the orange lights above the doors to show whether they are properly closed. If seen we are required to bring the train to a stop as soon as practical so they can be checked, especially if there is a risk of a passenger falling/jumping out.

Level crossing lamps?

 

Ahead and behind for road traffic, a side glass as a tell-tale for the bobby

 

Richard

 

The OP's lamp is almost certainly off a road vehicle

 

Most unlikely!

[RLWP]

Most unlikely!

 

<Richard goes off to google for images of level crossing lamps>

 

Richard

[Graham Davis]

The "proving" that the gate was closed to road traffic, especially if the gates were interlocked with the approach signals, would have been by mechanical means, and not Mk1 eyes.

That is still the case even with the few "ship's wheel" operated gates left in the country, and was also the case with hand operated gates, such as the old gates at Llani Rd (http://s0.geograph.org.uk/photos/74/41/744146_32d33fbd.jpg) Now replaced by barriers!

[OldGoldy]

 

Can anyone help identify the origins of this lamp please?

 

Eli Griffiths Traction Engine Lamp. (search Google images for Eli Griffiths lamps)

 

eta May be a 'Fowler' if abt 15in high (either option HERE)

 

Just noticed Dorlan beat me to it ages ago! (goes away muttering "I'm so slow sometimes......"..)

Edited February 17, 2014 by OldGoldy

[DaveC]

I knew the last "crossing keeper" at Crofton level crossing. He had three levers in his "signal" box, one to lock the gates and one for each direction distant signal - the big red disc on the gates (lamp at night) being the "Stop" signal. He would only operate the gates when "line clear" was showing from both Savernake and Bedwyn boxes. The gates were manually operated, meaning he had to go out in the rain to open / close them.

 

 

Dave

[Graham Davis]

And the pulling of the "lock" lever was interlocked with the signal lever, so the latter couldn't be pulled until the former was probably back in the frame.

Our number 1 lever is the "proving" lever for our barriers and is normally out of the frame, so the proceedure is to drop the barriers, replace No1 into frame, then signal as normal.

 

In this picture No1 is the one with the duster on it and "out" of the frame.

[url=http://s173.photobucket.com/user/Llanigraham/media/Bromfield/Bromfield1308002.jpg.html][/

URL]

 

As that is the "Up" signals proceedure would be:

Barriers down

1 in

then 5 (starter/section)

then 4 (home)

then 3 (distant) out

(2 out of use)

Edited February 17, 2014 by Graham Davis

[RLWP]

The "proving" that the gate was closed to road traffic, especially if the gates were interlocked with the approach signals, would have been by mechanical means, and not Mk1 eyes.

 

 

I wasn't trying to prove the gate was shut, I was trying to prove the lamp was alight.

 

Richard

[Graham Davis]

Not required, Richard.

As it is a paraffin lamp, and therefore always lit, it would show when the gates are open to the road traffic anyway.

And believe it or not the presumption was (is) that the lamp is lit, unless notified otherwise. Some paraffin lamps even had a low voltage electric circuit that was held "off" when the flame was lit, which linked to an indicator light in the Box, but normally for signals only.

Signal lamps also have a small lens to the rear of the body and facing away from the direction of travel, that show a small white light, so we can check at night, even now.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Graham Davis

[RLWP]

Not required, Richard.

As it is a paraffin lamp, and therefore always lit, it would show when the gates are open to the road traffic anyway.

And believe it or not the presumption was (is) that the lamp is lit, unless notified otherwise. Some paraffin lamps even had a low voltage electric circuit that was held "off" when the flame was lit, which linked to an indicator light in the Box, but normally for signals only.

 

And only signals that you couldn't see the back light on. You wouldn't be fitting an expander contact box on a crossing gate lamp

 

Richard

[kbarber]

 

Want a bet!!?

 

We still check for "passed complete with tail lamp", and I know of 2 "divided trains" locally in the last 2 years.

I've ever sent "9" and "4-5" once in the last 12 months. (Light had actually gone out)

 

I stand corrected. Mind you, on the West London Line tail lamps unlit were a fairly regular occurrence. If it was a train for Willesden (usually Brent or Sudbury) we'd all just keep an extra good look out for it after the initial warning until it was past Mitre Bridge; no point in all the messing around stopping it when we could clearly see the lamp (and we all had better things to do anyway on nights...)

And the pulling of the "lock" lever was interlocked with the signal lever, so the latter couldn't be pulled until the former was probably back in the frame.

Our number 1 lever is the "proving" lever for our barriers and is normally out of the frame, so the proceedure is to drop the barriers, replace No1 into frame, then signal as normal.

 

In this picture No1 is the one with the duster on it and "out" of the frame.

[url=http://s173.photobucket.com/user/Llanigraham/media/Bromfield/Bromfield1308002.jpg.html][/

URL]

 

As that is the "Up" signals proceedure would be:

Barriers down

1 in

then 5 (starter/section)

then 4 (home)

then 3 (distant) out

(2 out of use)

No sequential locking then. Is that a 5-bar frame?

Edited February 18, 2014 by kbarber

[billh]

 

Want a bet!!?

 

We still check for "passed complete with tail lamp", and I know of 2 "divided trains" locally in the last 2 years.

I've ever sent "9" and "4-5" once in the last 12 months. (Light had actually gone out)

 

And actually we do look at "side" lights on passenger trains now, especially the orange lights above the doors to show whether they are properly closed. If seen we are required to bring the train to a stop as soon as practical so they can be checked, especially if there is a risk of a passenger falling/jumping out.

 

Most unlikely!

What happens when we get these new ROCs? I can see that axle counters can detect divided trains ( and stop everything for miles around) but checking passenger train doors? Lineside cameras that compare an image of a properly secured train with the actual passing train? Your 'box is a credit to you, will you take it home with you when it's eventually closed?

Bill

[Graham Davis]

No sequential locking then. Is that a 5-bar frame?

Haven't got a clue; I just pull the levers!! (I see it is after all!!)

This is the frame in the locking room:

 

What happens when we get these new ROCs? I can see that axle counters can detect divided trains ( and stop everything for miles around) but checking passenger train doors? Lineside cameras that compare an image of a properly secured train with the actual passing train? Your 'box is a credit to you, will you take it home with you when it's eventually closed?

Bill

 

Good question Bill.

I suspect it will something that is no longer done. TBH it doesn't happen very often now.

Our Box is due to close in 2017, and I'm 65 in 2018, so I hope they come up with a suitable package. The way they have been with the latest closures everything was itemised, even down to the paperclips!! And they continually monitor ebay for stuff!!

Edited February 18, 2014 by Graham Davis

[kbarber]

Thanks Graham. Agreed with Bill, that's what I call a well-kept box!

[Graham Davis]

Thanks. We do try to keep it clean and tidy.