jp2 starting

[lpp2]

I'm asking this on behalf of a friend of mine,who's health is not what it was,

is it possible to have a electric starter fitted. He can manage the boat reasonably well but using the starting handle is a problem for him.

Thanks lpp2

[station tug]

yes electric start is easily attcheavable............just a matter of cost........there are a few firms that can supply the relevent parts........marine power services probably the place to start............and youll need a fairly handy mechanic to fit the parts

[MtB]

Yes technically easy, but deep pockets necessary.

 

Dick Goble quoted me £1k to add electric starter motor and ring gear to the hand-start Kelvin J2 he was trying to flog me, and this was several years ago.

 

MtB

[Timleech]

Yes, can be done, I've done a couple of them.

The flywheel needs to come off, how big a job that is depends upon how much room there is in front of the engine - the engine may need to be moved backwards, and that job in turn can 'develop'.

Ring gears are not available off the shelf, there are ways round that but never particularly cheap.

If it's a Lister marine unit, rather than marinised industrial engine, it'll need an anticlockwise starter, not easy to find now but again not insurmountable.

 

Where in the country?

 

Tim

[ChimneyChain]

I was talking to someone that had a national in his boat and he also found it hard to swing the engine. So what he had fitted was a motor with a rubber doughnut attached to it, that you could swing into position when needed, it rubbed on the flywheel spinning it over and away it went. A lot cheaper alternative then machining all the necessary parts.

 

Darren

[cereal tiller]

I was talking to someone that had a national in his boat and he also found it hard to swing the engine. So what he had fitted was a motor with a rubber doughnut attached to it, that you could swing into position when needed, it rubbed on the flywheel spinning it over and away it went. A lot cheaper alternative then machining all the necessary parts.

 

Darren

Good idea,did your friend say"I love the smell of burning rubber in the morning"?

[BEngo]

I know ACW starters are not common, but is it not possible to reverse the rotation of a CW starter? The electric bits will obviously need ferkling with , to reverse the field, and there may be brush changes but are there any one-way clutches or other mechanical parts affected?

 

N

[Timleech]

I was talking to someone that had a national in his boat and he also found it hard to swing the engine. So what he had fitted was a motor with a rubber doughnut attached to it, that you could swing into position when needed, it rubbed on the flywheel spinning it over and away it went. A lot cheaper alternative then machining all the necessary parts.

 

Darren

 

I've seen that sort of thing done on a couple of different engines, it can work although actually you need to be able to apply quite a lot of pressure to the rubber wheel to stop it slipping.

Some bigger Nationals, E or F size I suppose, sometimes used a similar principle although with a little petrol engine in place of the starter motor.

 

One worry with anything non-standard like that is what happens if it goes wrong when you're miles away from home? Some of us would just find a way to sort it out, but if the Lister owner in question isn't a natural bodger engineer, and perhaps past the first flush of youth, they might want something that is working more or less 'as designed' and which can be fixed by a competent yard if there is a problem.

 

Tim

I know ACW starters are not common, but is it not possible to reverse the rotation of a CW starter? The electric bits will obviously need ferkling with , to reverse the field, and there may be brush changes but are there any one-way clutches or other mechanical parts affected?

 

N

 

Yes. Exactly what depends on the model.

The BS5, which was normal fitment on the JP, has an overrun clutch with a spiral spline on the pinion, that would all need to be changed.

 

Tim

[martyn 1]

The original fitment BS5's as previously mentioned are getting hard to get hold of, but there are a couple of suitable modern anti clockwise starter motors readily available if you know the model numbers... and the appropriate ones to convert an industrial are plentiful.

[MtB]

I was talking to someone that had a national in his boat and he also found it hard to swing the engine. So what he had fitted was a motor with a rubber doughnut attached to it, that you could swing into position when needed, it rubbed on the flywheel spinning it over and away it went. A lot cheaper alternative then machining all the necessary parts.

 

Darren

 

Another approach is to use a Dynastart, like wot I have on my Samofa.

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=59344&hl=dynastart#entry1127200

 

 

MtB

[monkeyhanger]

I'm asking this on behalf of a friend of mine,who's health is not what it was,

is it possible to have a electric starter fitted. He can manage the boat reasonably well but using the starting handle is a problem for him.

Thanks lpp2

I had mine converted to electric start by Tony Redshaw about 3years ago. He did a nice job. The cost was £1700-not so nice- but I guess you get what you pay for.

[steamraiser2]

As it happens I have just sent a revised ring gear drawing for Lister JP's out to quote. It will be interesting to see what the prices are. The ring gears we do are exact copies of the original Lister item rather than fit an incorrectly sized Gardner ring gear as some do. By the time the ring gear has been made, the flywheel machined to take it, plus water jetting and welding of the starter mount to take a new starter motor it is easy to see where the cost comes from. Most of the hand start JPs that come to us for restoration leave us converted. Some of the engines on our website show the set up quite clearly.

[Timleech]

As it happens I have just sent a revised ring gear drawing for Lister JP's out to quote. It will be interesting to see what the prices are. The ring gears we do are exact copies of the original Lister item rather than fit an incorrectly sized Gardner ring gear as some do. By the time the ring gear has been made, the flywheel machined to take it, plus water jetting and welding of the starter mount to take a new starter motor it is easy to see where the cost comes from. Most of the hand start JPs that come to us for restoration leave us converted. Some of the engines on our website show the set up quite clearly.

 

Actually the original Lister ring gear is a huge thing, OK on the larger flywheels but when fitted to the smaller flywheel turns it into something that resembles a circular saw!

The last JP that I did, I made a ring gear myself of a size that allowed the starter motor to be fitted neatly, close to the engine crankcase but not against it.

 

Edit to add picture, of the flywheel with ring gear, with an old Lister original ring gear sitting on top for comparison.

 

 

Tim

Edited February 14, 2014 by Timleech

[martyn 1]

Tim

 

Was that for an industrial engine or marine? as we have found that going down in diameter on the ring gear on a 23" flywheeled marine jp (would be my preference as well as it is large and saw like, pic below) means that if it has the ram type pump, the starter wont fit that side and on the injector pump side it fouls with the end of the crankcase and is very close to the end of the pump mount with a JP3M and fouls with a JP4M.

 

I would presume that Lister did the 23" and 26" flywheel ringears the same o/d so it will fit in all aplications and both ends. Incidentally the JK was available with a enclosed bell housing at the industrial end which came with a flywheel and ring gear of the size you made.

 

Edited February 14, 2014 by martyn 1

[Timleech]

Tim

 

Was that for an industrial engine or marine? as we have found that going down in diameter on the ring gear on a 23" flywheeled marine jp (would be my preference as well as it is large and saw like, pic below) means that if it has the ram type pump, the starter wont fit that side and on the injector pump side it fouls with the end of the crankcase and is very close to the end of the pump mount with a JP3M and fouls with a JP4M.

 

I would presume that Lister did the 23" and 26" flywheel ringears the same o/d so it will fit in all aplications and both ends. Incidentally the JK was available with a enclosed bell housing at the industrial end which came with a flywheel and ring gear of the size you made.

 

Martyn

 

 

It was a marine JP3. I'll see if I can get a picture over the weekend.

I think the JP4 had the enclosed flywheel at the stern end as standard?

Similarly with HR4 etc. I think. Presume as much to reduce crankshaft strain as much as anything, but they could also use a smaller flywheel because they had more cylinders (& probably no hand start)

 

 

 

Tim

Edited February 14, 2014 by Timleech

[FadeToScarlet]

I also, like MtB, read this thread and thought "Dynastart".

[MtB]

I also, like MtB, read this thread and thought "Dynastart".

 

Yep. Mine looks like an old fashioned car engine dynamo, is driven by an ordinary v belt around the plain flywheel so no ring gear is needed. It charges the battery like a dynamo but also works as an electric motor to turn the engine over in order to start it. Very neat, and cheap in comparison.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VIRE-6-7-12-OEM-New-DYNASTART-unit-starter-dynamo-slight-diff-to-Volvo-MD-/230404135916?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item35a5281bec

 

Dunno if this would turn over a JP2 but I think it probably would. Turns over my Samofa ok!

 

MtB

[Timleech]

 

Yep. Mine looks like an old fashioned car engine dynamo, is driven by an ordinary v belt around the plain flywheel so no ring gear is needed. It charges the battery like a dynamo but also works as an electric motor to turn the engine over in order to start it. Very neat, and cheap in comparison.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VIRE-6-7-12-OEM-New-DYNASTART-unit-starter-dynamo-slight-diff-to-Volvo-MD-/230404135916?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item35a5281bec

 

Dunno if this would turn over a JP2 but I think it probably would. Turns over my Samofa ok!

 

MtB

 

I've seen a JP2 with a Dynastart fitted, didn't see it in action but gather it did work OK.

Probably a bigger model than the one in that link, though.

 

Tim

[MtB]

 

I've seen a JP2 with a Dynastart fitted, didn't see it in action but gather it did work OK.

Probably a bigger model than the one in that link, though.

 

Tim

 

Right, I've found the thread with photos of mine. Not fitted to the engine yet in the photos but could of help to the OP if he can identify it definitively, as it IS fitted now and it turns over the Samofa adequately (if somewhat lazily) with an old and tired battery. See post number 7 in this thread:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=59344&hl=dynastart#entry1127200

 

 

MtB

[Timleech]

 

Right, I've found the thread with photos of mine. Not fitted to the engine yet in the photos but could of help to the OP if he can identify it definitively, as it IS fitted now and it turns over the Samofa adequately (if somewhat lazily) with an old and tired battery.

 

MtB

 

I wouldn't expect true starter motor-type performance. Probably more like hand starting without the grunting.

 

Tim

[frangar]

I reckon you might be in with a better chance with a dynastart on a JP if you lift the decompressors first then drop them once it's spinning nicely...just as you would a hand start.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[cereal tiller]

I reckon you might be in with a better chance with a dynastart on a JP if you lift the decompressors first then drop them once it's spinning nicely...just as you would a hand start.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

 

Suppose there is no reason why 2 Dynastarts could not be used,have had some experience of these units and they do not seem to have the same torque as a conventional starter motor.

 

CT

[Timleech]

I reckon you might be in with a better chance with a dynastart on a JP if you lift the decompressors first then drop them once it's spinning nicely...just as you would a hand start.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

 

See my post above

 

I still think it would really need a bigger unit than the one in Mtb's link. The Volvo MD2 is a tiny engine compared with a JP.

 

Tim

Edited February 15, 2014 by Timleech

[MtB]

 

I wouldn't expect true starter motor-type performance. Probably more like hand starting without the grunting.

 

Tim

 

That sums up exactly how it performs!

 

MtB

 

I still think it would really need a bigger unit than the one in Mtb's link. The Volvo MD2 is a tiny engine compared with a JP.

 

Do they come in different sizes then? They all look the same size in the various ebay listings. Or are the higher rated ones the same physical size as lower rated?

 

And another question while we're discussing Dynastarts, the ebay link I gave earlier says they need a regulator. I don't have one with mine but if the OP adopts the idea, we might both be needing one. Is this the case, and if so, what sort of regulator is needed?

 

Thanks,

MtB

[Timleech]

 

 

Do they come in different sizes then? They all look the same size in the various ebay listings. Or are the higher rated ones the same physical size as lower rated?

 

And another question while we're discussing Dynastarts, the ebay link I gave earlier says they need a regulator. I don't have one with mine but if the OP adopts the idea, we might both be needing one. Is this the case, and if so, what sort of regulator is needed?

 

Thanks,

MtB

 

You need Sir Nibble for definitive answers to those questions.

I suspect the bigger sizes are no longer available/hens' teeth.

 

Tim