Considering my first boat. Help?

[jhoff]

I guess you can verbally say that the deposit is subject to a successful survey/repairs/a boat's ability to float etc. but I guess that is all just a trust agreement and not something you typically have down on paper then, unlike house-buying? Is that right?

 

If a boat is already out of the water, would you then pay to have it craned back into the water to make sure it doesn't leak or sink before finally signing a contract to buy it?

 

Obviously, I understand that different people do it different ways, I'm just trying to gauge a general standard approach.

[Neil2]

I guess you can verbally say that the deposit is subject to a successful survey/repairs/a boat's ability to float etc. but I guess that is all just a trust agreement and not something you typically have down on paper then, unlike house-buying? Is that right?

 

If a boat is already out of the water, would you then pay to have it craned back into the water to make sure it doesn't leak or sink before finally signing a contract to buy it?

 

Obviously, I understand that different people do it different ways, I'm just trying to gauge a general standard approach.

First question - with most brokers it is actually quite formal and you should read the contract very carefully. With private sales I would always have something in writing before parting with any money, it doesn't have to be anything complex though there are forms of contract you can download if you don't feel confident enough to draft your own.

 

Second question - you would probably have to bear the cost, yes, but bear in mind that if the boat is already on the hard you have saved the cost of pulling it out for survey. On balance I think I would rather see a boat out of the water first, especially if it is quite old, because your prime concern is the state of the hull and there's no way anyone can assess that with the boat in the water.

 

What I don't understand is why why brokers who display a lot of boats out of the water don't take a few photos before they take the boats out. Most narrowboats look quite ungainly on dry land you're left struggling to imagine what she would look like in the canal.

 

BTW slipping/craning out charges can vary from £70 to £300 depending on the method used and the size of the boat.

[jhoff]

Amazing, thank you so much Neil. This is very helpful - I suddenly was struck by the thought that I actually don't know the next step after viewing a boat, and it worried me.

 

This is very good to know!

 

If I view a boat on a hard standing and can have a look at the hull (because presumably I will do this before I decide to get a real hull-looker to survey it), what should I look for in terms of visible signs of hull condition?

 

Thank you for all your advice, everyone. I really feel as though I owe a few people on this thread a pint or two for this.

[Athy]

Pitting is a vital one to look for - your hull-looker will tell you if it's serious when you have your hull-look done (sorry Miss H, I just found the expression appealing). Eventually it can go right through and thereby let in water, though I have rarely heard of it doing so.

Deep dints (or if you're from the South, dents) should also be investigated.

 

Any real ale around the 4 to 5% mark will do nicely thanks, look forward to it.

[Neil2]

Pitting is a vital one to look for - your hull-looker will tell you if it's serious when you have your hull-look done (sorry Miss H, I just found the expression appealing). Eventually it can go right through and thereby let in water, though I have rarely heard of it doing so.

Deep dints (or if you're from the South, dents) should also be investigated.

 

Any real ale around the 4 to 5% mark will do nicely thanks, look forward to it.

I only drink whisky these days...

 

With a scraper and a cheap plastic caliper you can do your own hull "survey" ie you can search for pits and measure the depth.

 

The trouble is, no-one is going to take any notice of an unqualified person's opinion in the bargaining process. That's why if you see a boat you like the look of you have to bring in a professional. Having said this, pretty much anyone can call themselves a "marine surveyor" but in practice most brokers and sellers will take the surveyors report as gospel and very rarely do you find people asking for a second opinion.

 

Some of the more experienced members on here dispute the value of a survey, but if you consider that he/she will almost always find something wrong with the boat, you will recoup the cost of the exercise, possibly several times over.

 

If and when you get to this stage, ask the forum for surveyor recommendations in the area where you are looking.

[Laurie Booth]

I remember in my serious drinking days we invented a game which involved trying to think up the most ridiculous and/or obscene names for real ales. You can amuse yourself for hours by just thinking up a mildly offensive word and stick "Old" in front of it.

I dare not repeat the one that we all agreed was the outright winner, but in the modern era it would be difficult to dream up names that beat the actual monikers attached to some brews.

 

 

I've always wanted to call a beer "Old Phart-in-a- Gale Gruntfuttock"

[junior]

I bought my boat like this:

 

Viewed on my own.

Viewed again with a forum member, including test drive (offered by brokerage).

Made offer subject to know defects being repaired and satisfactory survey.

Paid deposit.

Paid balance and collected boat.

 

That was from Braunston Brokerage who although seemed to be 'a bit all over the place', I would be happy to recommend or buy from again.

Edited March 10, 2014 by junior

[jhoff]

Hellohello,

 

Ales and whiskeys all round!

 

I've been away for sometime in Gloucestershire to not be in London, although I realise on my drive out that there are a ton of boats there and it's ridiculous that I didn't go and look at any. BUT I've returned with vigour.

 

Also, I've encountered a new engine name: Bukh. Apparently Danish? Not sure what else is part of its reputation.

[Neil2]

Hellohello,

 

Ales and whiskeys all round!

 

I've been away for sometime in Gloucestershire to not be in London, although I realise on my drive out that there are a ton of boats there and it's ridiculous that I didn't go and look at any. BUT I've returned with vigour.

 

Also, I've encountered a new engine name: Bukh. Apparently Danish? Not sure what else is part of its reputation.

Now you're talking. Bukhs are genuine marine engines, ie they are specifically designed to power boats as opposed to most other engines that have been "marinised" or adapted for boat use. Bukhs are really intended for sea boats and you find many of them powering lifeboats and fishing boats ie where the power unit has to be totally reliable, capable of being started without a battery, can run underwater for short periods, and can be repaired/maintained easily and in situ.

 

You don't see huge numbers in narrowboats partly because compared to the alternatives they are quite expensive, but there's also an argument that an engine designed for a rough life at sea isn't the best choice for pottering around the canal system.

 

But Bukh aficionados will not have a word said against these engines.

 

Three variants crop up in canal boats, basically one, two and three cylinders, depending on the boat size. The three cylinder version would provide all the power you would ever need for a narrowboat, a friend of mine's parents had one fitted in a motor sailer that went all the way up into the Arctic Circle and back.

 

Oh, BTW guess what type of engine I have.

[Miemie]

Good evening all, I am a nb here and I have been following a few peeps on here reading and reading but it all gets confusing after a while I am in stoke and me and hubby is looking into buying our first boat but goodness it's scary and I am petrified of being taken for a ride when buying it's me hubby and two dogs going to live on there and then at weekends I'm sure we would have family joining us we've looked at boats so much they become over powering what did you all get as a first boat and I think because I'm so scared of being ripped off I am now too picking. Any one around stoke that can advice me where is the best place to go to buy my new baby and also what is the questions I need to ask....thanks for reading

[jhoff]

Now you're talking. Bukhs are genuine marine engines, ie they are specifically designed to power boats as opposed to most other engines that have been "marinised" or adapted for boat use. Bukhs are really intended for sea boats and you find many of them powering lifeboats and fishing boats ie where the power unit has to be totally reliable, capable of being started without a battery, can run underwater for short periods, and can be repaired/maintained easily and in situ.

 

You don't see huge numbers in narrowboats partly because compared to the alternatives they are quite expensive, but there's also an argument that an engine designed for a rough life at sea isn't the best choice for pottering around the canal system.

 

But Bukh aficionados will not have a word said against these engines.

 

Three variants crop up in canal boats, basically one, two and three cylinders, depending on the boat size. The three cylinder version would provide all the power you would ever need for a narrowboat, a friend of mine's parents had one fitted in a motor sailer that went all the way up into the Arctic Circle and back.

 

Oh, BTW guess what type of engine I have.

 

I'm going to take a crazy guess at you being one of these Bukh aficionados.....

 

I'm not planning on going as far as the Arctic Circle, but it's always nice to know that the option is there.

[jhoff]

Arggg, how long did it take everyone else to find their boat. I have come close now to buying two boats that would be ideal for me (dreamboats) and both have fallen through at the last minute for different reasons. It is very frustrating! And now it seems as though boats coming onto the market are getting more expensive. I did not expect it to be such a slow process...

[Alan de Enfield]

First n/b was about three hours from deciding we wanted one, to finding one on appolo duck (it had only been listed for 10 minutes when we saw the ad), to driving to view it, to handing over a carrier bag full of notes.

 

Latest n/b was about a week searching, found one, did a bank transfer of the money and an hour later drove it away.

 

It takes as long as you or the seller want it to take.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Alan de Enfield

[Athy]

Arggg, how long did it take everyone else to find their boat. I have come close now to buying two boats that would be ideal for me (dreamboats) and both have fallen through at the last minute for different reasons. It is very frustrating! And now it seems as though boats coming onto the market are getting more expensive. I did not expect it to be such a slow process...

The Prodigal returns! Nice to see you (virtually).

Regarding your question, string length springs to mind. Somewhere between ten minutes and two years would be about average. Sorry if I sound fa(e)cetious, but it really does vary a lot. I think Mrs. Athy and I spent a few months looking for our first one before we discovered Octavia - and even then it was a toss-up between Octy and a boat moored a jetty or two away from her at Whilton Marina.

 

Springtime, being perceived as the beginning of the boating season (though some on here will tell you that there is no "season") can bring an increase in the prices asked for boats, yes. That need not mean that they actually sell for more!

 

Do post details of any further boats which you're considering if you'd like the experts (and the rest of us) to comment on them. It is not an imposition - boaters love woffling on, whoops, constructively commenting, about boats, as you may already have ascertained!

[Traveller]

Have hopefully just found our boat and from a private seller and I must say that we have thus far been very lucky. The seller, who is not a boatie by any stretch of the imagination, inherited the boat from his dad who has regrettably passed on. We explained that we were very interested and that we would make an offer subject to contract. The response was - well you need to be sure so why not take the boat out for an afternoon and see how you get on. This we did and on the back of that made a subject to survey offer. No deposit changed hands and the survey came out with a couple of small issues so we reduced our offer price by £500. This has been accepted and we are now just waiting for the registration authority to deal with the death certificate before we complete.

There is still time for this to go wrong but it just goes to show how varied the process can be.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Traveller

[jhoff]

I figured it would be pretty varied... I think I am just feeling a bit exasperated right now. These dream scenarios of quick finding and straight-forward offer/survey/payment deals sounds so good...

 

A carrier bag full of notes, though! What about a slick gangster leather briefcase and shades?

 

I'm going to have a spy on these two:

 

http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/50-all-steel-narrowboat-harborough-marine-with-desirable-mooring-at-shardlow-on-trent-and-mersey/1055371963

And

http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/49ft-narrowboat/1055917626 (which has very little info, but I have since discovered is 1989 Midlands Canal Centre with a 35hp Isuzu engine and was last blacked 4.5 years ago, and last surveyed 3 years ago.)

 

Both are kind of more than I'd want to pay and more than I'd expect to pay for a boat like this, but what do you reckon?

[Athy]

 

 

A carrier bag full of notes, though! What about a slick gangster leather briefcase and shades?

 

 

 

http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/50-all-steel-narrowboat-harborough-marine-with-desirable-mooring-at-shardlow-on-trent-and-mersey/1055371963

And

 

Nope, if you are going to carry a large amount of Wonga about, don't put it in anything which looks slick or expensive!

 

The Harborough Marine boat looks well maintained as does its engine (for which parts should be easily available). It comes with a very full inventory, you seem to get everything except a loan of the owner's granny to do the housework, and Shardlow is a very pleasant place to moor (sorry, can't remember if you are contemplating moving to a particular area). So that's the pro's.

 

The interior looks as boring as hell - sorry,I mean it gives the new owner the chance to stamp their individuality upon it.

 

Harboroughs have not been made for some years and I wonder how old this one is. It's in their later style (their '70s and '80s ones had the distinctive "banana boat" high curved prow which I am sure you have seen on some of the boats you've viewed), so maybe it's a'90s build. As for price, note that the owner mentions listening to offers. this means that either (s)he knows it won't go for that much or that (s)he is not a business(wo)man - works in your favour in either case.

Now, your second one - also a bit dowdy inside. Midland Canal Centre at Stenson in Derbyshire is a long-established builder which still exists. This boat seems pricy for one as long in the tooth as 1989. Note the long cratch cover - hence less interior space.

 

The engine is probably a more recent replacement, as I don't think marinised Isuzus were around in 1989. They're no longer sold in the UK but I think you can still get the spares if they go wrong.

 

Of the two, the Harborough looks the more promising.

[jhoff]

I think after some asking, I was told the Harborough was from 1989, so you're close! It is quite dull on the inside - both of them are (although at least the Harborough doesn't have the inexplicably giant print of Hendrix on the kitchen - why??) but I think perhaps some of my past disappointments and slow purchasing have been due to fussiness and wanting to find the Perfect narrowboat whereas maybe it's wiser to settle for a functional, solid build, and let the inside take shape over time? But yeah, it doesn't look amazing inside. I wouldn't want the mooring in Shardlow and some things like tv etc. I don't see myself having any use for, so maybe I could negotiate price on that, too.

 

The Midland Canal Centre one does seem super pricey - I also just noticed that it has previously been listed on Gumtree almost a month ago at £28000 before its listing now at £27000 so I guess maybe the owner is starting to realise the price is unrealistic, but also doesn't seem like they're up for reducing it a huge amount. Still, it's quite close to me - only half an hour driving - so worth seeing anyway, I reckon.

[MtB]

Nope, if you are going to carry a large amount of Wonga about, don't put it in anything which looks slick or expensive!

 

 

Can't help but agree.

 

My brother in law had his car broken into back in the 1980's when he stopped in the pub on the way home from a hectic day on his (very large) stall at Blackbushe Market. The thieves nicked his radio but failed to notice the £3,000 day's takings in a Tesco carrier bag lying on the back seat.

 

 

MtB

The Harborough boat looks horrible! Terribly old-fashioned hull style that will get ever more difficult to sell on once you tire of it.

 

The MCC boat is a far better choice in my personal opinion. A new cratch cover and it could look pretty smart.

 

The Hendrix pic is the deciding factor though, for me

 

 

MtB

[Athy]

 

Can't help but agree.

 

My brother in law had his car broken into back in the 1980's when he stopped in the pub on the way home from a hectic day on his (very large) stall at Blackbushe Market. The thieves nicked his radio but failed to notice the £3,000 day's takings in a Tesco carrier bag lying on the back seat.

 

 

MtB

The Harborough boat looks horrible! Terribly old-fashioned hull style.

 

 

MtB

A surprising criticism coming from the owner of 'Reg' which was built when? 1930s? Could (s)he not now be described as old fashioned?

In any case, Miss H would be living inside the boat (which appears to offer space and scope for refurbishment) rather than entering it in beauty contests.

 

I think I did warn the OP some while ago that she would meet conflicting points of view on this forum. Q.E.D.

 

Edit: I have had another look at the photos of the Harborough. The only aspect of it which looks "old-fashioned" is perhaps the lack of tumblehome (JH: this is the slope of the sides between the roof and the gunwales; forgive me if you knew that already) which means that the boat is slightly more likely to hit low, curvy bridge arches.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Athy

[Neil2]

I have to agree with Mike about the Harborough boat, but boats with a high "prow" are a love hate/thing and if some folk find them attractive fair enough. But to my eyes they just look all wrong, like the Foxboats which always look to me like they have been in a serious front end collision. The other issue with this boat is there's too many windows and they are all the same size which makes it look very slab sided.

 

We all have our opinions but I think, like cars, boats tend to look more pleasing with more in front than behind which is why we all like tugs. Conversely with all respect to the owners, those Canaltime boats with the cruiser stern and the snub nose are never going to win any beauty contests.

 

I suppose if you are "lucky" enough to have no appreciation of aesthetics you can disregard looks and just get the most practical boat for your needs.

 

 

[MtB]

A surprising criticism coming from the owner of 'Reg' which was built when? 1930s? Could (s)he not now be described as old fashioned?

 

REGINALD is 1887 for the original riveted iron hull and 1970's for the cabin conversion.

 

Here's a pic of REGINALD (with SICKLE) for comparison of bow shapes with the Harborough boat:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q.E.D. indeed!

 

Or maybe you disagree.

 

 

MtB

[Athy]

I have to agree with Mike about the Harborough boat, but boats with a high "prow" are a love hate/thing and if some folk find them attractive fair enough. But to my eyes they just look all wrong, like the Foxboats which always look to me like they have been in a serious front end collision.

 

 

Now that really is hedging your bets. MtB and I are both called Mike.

Fox boats look good, especially from the prow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q.E.D. indeed!

 

Or maybe you disagree.

 

 

MtB

Of course I do. I'm of northern origin. It's what we do. (You may find other examples of this tendency dotted around the forum).

I did not suggest that the Harborough was better looking than a vintage boat such as Reg or Sickle. Quite the contrary. But of course, as Reg was designed in the 1880s and Sickle in the 1930s, obviously the Harborough, a 1980s design, is more modern, and thus less old-fashioned, than either.

 

Q.E.D. again (I think).

 

The point about the uniformity of the windows is a good one - but from the viewpoint of somebody living aboard, plenty of big windows = a nice bright interior.

[Neil2]

There are lots of examples of objects that were once though to be ugly or old fashioned gaining a new lease of life. Eg like many folk I confidently predicted that flared trousers would never come back into fashion, and what about high level toilet cisterns and claw foot baths - I remember my dad boxing ours in to make it look "modern". In the automotive world I remember when you couldn't give away an Austin Healey "Frogeye" Sprite and have you seen the price of those recently.

 

So maybe if the Harborough boat is still around in 50 years time it will have a cult following. Will any of us live to see it?

[jhoff]

 

Can't help but agree.

 

My brother in law had his car broken into back in the 1980's when he stopped in the pub on the way home from a hectic day on his (very large) stall at Blackbushe Market. The thieves nicked his radio but failed to notice the £3,000 day's takings in a Tesco carrier bag lying on the back seat.

 

 

MtB

The Harborough boat looks horrible! Terribly old-fashioned hull style that will get ever more difficult to sell on once you tire of it.

 

The MCC boat is a far better choice in my personal opinion. A new cratch cover and it could look pretty smart.

 

The Hendrix pic is the deciding factor though, for me

 

 

MtB

 

Whoa, that Tesco bag trick sounds like a real winner.

 

And I guess maybe it's because I'm not in on the boatie culture, but the high curved prow didn't spring out at me as something that looked old-fashioned. Is it less desirable to most people? I mean, obviously I want to get a boat that - first and foremost - I like and suits me, since I'll be living on it for the next foreseeable few years - but I am also wanting to be mindful of the fact that one day I will sell it on and I don't want to be in a tough spot when I do so...

 

Although I do intend to live for the next 50 years, hopefully.

 

Why does Reginald have all that open space in the front? Was it a delivery boat?