Considering my first boat. Help?

[jhoff]

Barkley did feel a lot more spacious than I'd expected but because I'm going to be living aboard full-time and also sometimes working from "home" (so boat or cafes depending), I think I'd need more space.

 

I'm thinking of taking a trip up to Norbury Wharf since there are a few on there that have caught my eye, and apparently according to various past threads on this forum, they have a pretty good reputation (compared to some other boatyards and brokers). Some of the boats they're advertising on Norbury Wharf, however, seem to me like they've been on sale for a long time. That strikes me as a pretty bad sign - is it?

[Athy]

It could be, but not necessarily. I would guess, from amateur but I hope intelligent observation, that if a boat has been on brokerage for, say, several months, and has not sold, this could be because:

- It's a heap of carp waiting to sink or fall to bits.

- It's a good boat but overpriced by the optimistic owner.

- It's a little way different from what are considered "normal" boats. Boat buyers are surprisingly conservative and any unusual features (such as the proboscis on Barkley) are viewed with suspicion.

 

So, if you don't mind a weird appearance you could pick up a bargain. If you see what looks like a nice boat which has been there some while, try to find out what its original asking price was. It may have already have come down by five thousand. If it hasn't, it may be about to do so!

 

Perhaps you could post links to any boats which interest you so that us lot may argue, whoops, I mean offer experienced opinions, about them?

 

Edit: just had a look at their web site. Heart says 'Tug' but head says 'Chatty Dachs'. Are these amongst the ones you were considering.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Athy

[JBoaB]

Barkley did feel a lot more spacious than I'd expected but because I'm going to be living aboard full-time and also sometimes working from "home" (so boat or cafes depending), I think I'd need more space.

 

I'm thinking of taking a trip up to Norbury Wharf since there are a few on there that have caught my eye, and apparently according to various past threads on this forum, they have a pretty good reputation (compared to some other boatyards and brokers). Some of the boats they're advertising on Norbury Wharf, however, seem to me like they've been on sale for a long time. That strikes me as a pretty bad sign - is it?

 

I might bare it in mind if I'm in a buying position. I noticed on the nearest marina to my proposed move the annual mooring costs are significantly cheaper between ‘less than 40ft’ and ‘more than 50ft’, which makes me lean towards small perfectly formed as I can stave of cabin fever with a weekend at home.

 

If you’re going to Norbury then take a look at my brothers boat 'Jenilka' (need to check the spelling though), I think it’s 50ft. I might consider it myself but I'm conscious that it would always feel like his boat and I'd like a reverse layout. I'm sure he would show you around it in person if you'd like. Message me if you'll like to arrange an introduction. Copy of the ad below, I can't seem to attach the word doc with the pictures.

 

50 Foot Trad, Liverpool shell with professional fitout by Classic Interiors. Starting at the bow, with glazed cratch plate & cover; the lounge is spacious accommodating a diesel Morso Squirrel stove, corner TV cabinet, bookshelf, chair bed & double sofa bed. The “U” shaped galley has ample work surface, a peninsular glass wall unit, overhead locker, Vanette GG7000 oven with matching dark green hob, sink & Taps. Integrated 3-way fridge. The corridor bathroom is fully tiled and comprises of Porta Pottie WC, vanity unit with inset basin, full size shower and an additional double storage cupboard with large mirror over, a really great use of space. Finally the aft cabin with a fixed double bed, accessible storage below, overhead locker and a large double wardrobe. The boat has a 240 V shoreline sockets in aft cabin and lounge and inverter, a BMC 1800 Diesel engine with 1 start & 2 domestic batteries. She carries 2 X 13kg gas Bottles. Her BSC certificate is until July 2015.Crusing Licence June 2014

With 5 berths Jenilka is perfect for friends & family or would make a great liveaboard for 2 people. Late last year all new batteries were fitted & she came out of the water for the bottom to be re-blacked and new anodes were fitted. Priced for a quick sale!

Edited March 3, 2014 by JBoaB

[jhoff]

Chatty Dachs was the one that pulled me over to them, but I also thought I'd have a roam around and check out ALL THE OTHER ONES (some of the other ones) whilst I'm there.

 

Let the record state that I do not mind a weird appearance.

 

Other boats I kind of like the look of:

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/advert.phtml?id=292435

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=342308

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=316713

Argue Reasonably and calmly discuss away

[Athy]

Like your style, Miss H.

The one on the Wey (Ory?) is very old but appears to have had a recent owner who has spent sensible money on her. I would think that she's an ex-hire boat. A bit of estate agent speak in the description: largerear deck ideal for socialising = less usable indoor living space.

Daisy registers neutral.

The pick of the three is Wild Wanderer. This is an ex-Canal Time timeshare boat. This organisation had many customers from overseas who would, apparently, be sent a video showing them how to drive a boat before they arrived for their holiday. So they got to the boatyard, stepped on board and set off, often having never set foot on a narrowboat before. The consequences were inevitable. I think the first one I ever encountered was coming towards me backwards and sideways round a blind bend. It may also have been on fire. I think I once saw one go past me upside down, though I may have dreamed this. So they had to be built robustly, indeed they were built in Durham where they don't pansy about - even their football managers head-butt people first and ask questions later.

Yet, despite the fact that my boat is a much more old-fashioned thing with a great grunting engine in a separate engine room, and thus in a completely different style from the Canal Time craft, I have to say that when I looked round one a few years ago I really liked it. The layout was good, the fittings were not beautiful but were neat and tidy, and although it had no front door it did have that most reassuring side hatch just by the bed. This one is reasonably priced (for comparisons go to Apollo Duck Narrowboats and put "South West Durham" into their search, they usually have several available). It has led a hard life (note the signs on the stern of tail-butting bridges, towpaths and anything else that's annoyed her) and would need taking out of the water and blacking p.d.q.

[Albion]

Just a quick comment about Wild Wanderer which might not be apparent to some. It has got a hip bath with shower above (nowt wrong with that in itself, we had exactly that on our first boat, which leads to my comment) but the hip bath means that you can only have a shower curtain (unless you have some expensive bespoke shower screen made, unlikely). In the winter, when the shower hot water is flowing well the cold clammy curtain will be drawn in by the air flow and you end up fighting the damn thing. Not particularly inviting on a cold winter's day and the reason that I swore I would only have a shower cubicle with door on future boats.

Roger

[Athy]

But surely not a problem if you use it as a bath?

[jhoff]

I have experienced such a clammy cold shower curtain and it is unpleasant, you're right. I had not even thought of this. But I think it might be lower on my list of specs. There are other aspects of all those boats that I think aren't quite right - like how the first one doesn't have a fixed double.

 

Wild Wanderer does look like it's taken a battering. I had not even considered the idea of ex-hires being driven badly in the past but of course that makes total sense. I think my thinking was, "Oh, ex-hire, I guess it'll have been attended to quite regularly by professionals", and I hadn't considered the fact that also, in the in between times, it'd have been bashed and set on fire (???!) by holidaymakers.

 

I'm hoping to go have a spy on this boat too, since it's near to me: http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/50ft-live-aboard-narrowboat-iron-maiden/1050902664

Seems a like it might be a bit old, but nice - although sparse - interior, and looks pretty well looked after.

[Albion]

But surely not a problem if you use it as a bath?

With the heavy water consumption that that involves. Also, with that design there are seat ledges either side which means it's not really a bath as such. Have a look at the photo and you'll see what I mean. You can really only get your feet in that central bit.

Roger

Edited March 3, 2014 by Albion

[Athy]

.

 

I'm hoping to go have a spy on this boat too, since it's near to me: Seems a like it might be a bit old, but nice - although sparse - interior, and looks pretty well looked after.

First impression is that it looks a bit like the interior of an old tube train, or perhaps the corridor leading to the headmaster's study. But interiors, like everything boat-related, are a matter of individual taste. It does look well maintained, yes.

 

I have never heard of the boatbuilder, though there has been narrowboat building in the Peterborough ara for many years. he obviously nipped round the corner to get an engine, as that's from Peterborough too (and Perkins do have a good reputation).

 

Most importantly, it's near you so you can easily go and see it. The more boats you go on, the clearer will be your ideas of features which you like or don't like.

[Neil2]

Iron Maiden looks interesting but shockingly overpriced. The Perkins 4108 isn't really happy pottering up and down the canal but if you were doing a lot of river work it would be nice to have. It looks to me a bit like one of those old Davidson Bros cruisers, with the trapezoidal(??) windows and all that, - I find those boats quite attractive. I'd have a look but the price is a bit of a joke.

 

There are quite a few of those Canal time boats lying shoulder to shoulder at Sawley Marina and I reckon £25,000 would buy the best one. I've had a look at a couple and they do have a very practical layout but to my eyes they are just soooo ugly.

[jhoff]

This is interesting information. What makes it seem so overpriced? I mean, what aspects of it do you think lose it value? For me, I was apprehensive about the fact that the interior does look super depressing, and I also didn't know if I could pull off the name... So. My insights into boat quality don't feel very in depth.

 

The ex-Canal Time boat does look pretty grim, agreed.

[Albion]

This is interesting information. What makes it seem so overpriced? I mean, what aspects of it do you think lose it value? For me, I was apprehensive about the fact that the interior does look super depressing, and I also didn't know if I could pull off the name... So. My insights into boat quality don't feel very in depth.

 

The ex-Canal Time boat does look pretty grim, agreed.

My thoughts also when I looked at the photos. IMO would need a complete lighten up with a paint treatment to avoid SAD disorder all year round (and for the pedants, I know that I've effectively repeated the word 'disorder' )

Roger

[Athy]

Yes, you're WELL out of disorder!

Oddly (for a person who loves to see really traditional looking boats) I think the Canal Time shape works well and is pleasingly distinctive. Some may find it weird, though luckily Miss H. has mentioned that she dos not mind that.

[chubby]

When i was doing my research into boats before buying one i came across a blog about this boat Iron Maiden . The guy did it up from scratch after buying it as a project . I can t do a link to it but i m sure a bit of googling would find it . I seem to remember being impressed by the chap who did it and he appeared pretty knowledgeable about what he was doing . I found it very interesting watching it go from a neglected boat to something the owner was proud of and he did the work to be his home not just to sell on so he made alot of effort with it .

[Neil2]

This is interesting information. What makes it seem so overpriced? I mean, what aspects of it do you think lose it value? For me, I was apprehensive about the fact that the interior does look super depressing, and I also didn't know if I could pull off the name... So. My insights into boat quality don't feel very in depth.

 

The ex-Canal Time boat does look pretty grim, agreed.

Well it's 33 years old for a start.

 

It's a builder no-one seems to have heard of, it's an amateur fit out, the BSC expires in six months, it's got the wrong engine, and if you look at other boats in this price range you can tick a lot of those boxes correct. You would also have to change the name but that's a minor point. Actually no it's not - would you really buy a boat from someone who thinks Iron Maiden is a cool name? Unless of course it was millionaire Bruce Dickinson's (you do know who Bruce Dickinson is?)

 

I do believe that if you really fall for a boat's looks it goes a long way towards addressing other shortcomings but you can't throw common sense totally out of the window. I'd say this vessel was worth maybe £17-18,000 without seeing it. I reckon if I saw it I would revise that figure downwards.

 

Don't get sucked in by the canaltime boats "idiosyncratic" looks by the way, they are ugly, not weird looking. Springers have a certain charm, these boats don't. And if you buy one it will be like when your mum insisted on buying you the sensible shoes and all the kids at school laughed at you. If you think that's an immature attitude - do you honestly think buying a boat is an sensible and adult thing to do...?

[Athy]

 

 

It's a builder no-one seems to have heard of, it's an amateur fit out, the BSC expires in six months, it's got the wrong engine,

 

 

Don't get sucked in by the canaltime boats "idiosyncratic" looks by the way, they are ugly, not weird looking. Springers have a certain charm, these boats don't. And if you buy one it will be like when your mum insisted on buying you the sensible shoes and all the kids at school laughed at you. If you think that's an immature attitude - do you honestly think buying a boat is an sensible and adult thing to do...?

What a load of bumblepuppy.

What is "wrong" with a Perkins 4.108? (Incidentally, Jhoff, the 4 means the number of cylinders and the 108 is the engine size in cubic inches)?

 

You don't like the look of Canal Time boats. Lots of other people do. Your analogy with sensible shoes is telling: these shoes are spacious and comfortable inside. The Canal Time layout gives a lot of living space for the length of the boat. Miss H would be living inside her boat, so this is worth considering.

[Neil2]

What a load of bumblepuppy.

What is "wrong" with a Perkins 4.108? (Incidentally, Jhoff, the 4 means the number of cylinders and the 108 is the engine size in cubic inches)?

 

You don't like the look of Canal Time boats. Lots of other people do. Your analogy with sensible shoes is telling: these shoes are spacious and comfortable inside. The Canal Time layout gives a lot of living space for the length of the boat. Miss H would be living inside her boat, so this is worth considering.

Bumblepuppy... Bumblepuppy.... You've overdosed on "Ink and Incapability" from Blackadder III methinks.

 

It's not up for debate Athy, the 4108 is not a narrowboat engine, that's all there is to it. It's too powerful, it doesn't like low revs and it is just too long - won't fit in most engine rooms properly.

 

I don't believe anyone likes the look of canaltime boats, they put up with it because of the internal space, but my view is you buy a "practical" boat at your peril. No-one ever fell in love with a canaltime boat.

[Athy]

Sweeping Generalisations'R'Us!

 

I'm not a mechanic so I'll defer to your knowledge regarding low revs, though I would suggest that not many diesel engines do like running at low revs as they were built to work hard. But a 1.8 litre engine rated at about 45 bhp, too powerful? sounds about right for a medium sized narrowboat to me. As for "not up for debate", who has decided that? There are quite a few of these engines in n/bs (we almost bought one, 'Moon', so equipped as our first boat), I guess their owners probably think they're suitable, and they must have found room for them!.

 

As for no one ever falling in love with Canal Time boats....there's a gal for every guy.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Athy

[Tuscan]

My RN pulls 18bhp and that used to be enough to drive a fully loaded a boat and butty so I would guess 45bhp might just be enough for a medium sized boat as you say.

 

But then I don't like the look of canal time boats either !

Edited March 5, 2014 by Tuscan

[Athy]

Yes, my Gardner emits 28 hp and that is more than adequate to drive my 45 foot boat. But isn't there some difference in the way that horsepower is measured in old engines and in modern ones? The latter have names like Canaline 42, with the figure presumably denoting horsepower, but of course this engine would not be over twice as powerful as your RN. Can somebody explain please?

 

Edit: just spotted another former canal Time boat for sale at BW Sawley marina. I must saw that apart from the rather hideous settee (easily removed) it does look very liveable-in.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Athy

[Machpoint005]

I would suggest that not many diesel engines do like running at low revs as they were built to work hard.

 

With you up to a point, but there must be several hundred NB engines out there are BMC-type 1.5 diesels that started their working lives as donkey engines on refrigerated trailers? They only ever chugged away at 1200 - 1500 rev/min, which is more or less what happens in a NB.

 

The important question is whether an engine (whatever it is) has sufficient torque and power output at normal running speeds. Modern Japanese tractor engines (like my Beta 43) and slow trad engines (like your Gardner) both do!

[Neil2]

 

With you up to a point, but there must be several hundred NB engines out there are BMC-type 1.5 diesels that started their working lives as donkey engines on refrigerated trailers? They only ever chugged away at 1200 - 1500 rev/min, which is more or less what happens in a NB.

 

The important question is whether an engine (whatever it is) has sufficient torque and power output at normal running speeds. Modern Japanese tractor engines (like my Beta 43) and slow trad engines (like your Gardner) both do!

The reason why the BMC 1.5 is so ubiquitous on the canals is because it produces its maximum torque very low down the rev range, and even when running slow for prolonged periods it tends not to build up sludge in the oil sump like most diesels would do under those conditions. Unlike the Perkins 4.108 it is completely suited to the canals where you want lots of low down torque to swing a big prop. Same with Gardners and RN's, on canals horsepower is pretty much irrelevant, it's all about torque.

Mind you, I hired an old wooden broads cruiser years ago that had a BMC 1.5 and I can tell you it was very happy at 3000rpm as well, we had to cross Breydon Water in a gale and it felt like it was in its element. I've been a fan of these motors ever since.

 

The Perkins engine is only happy when it's doing around 2500 - 3000 revs. When I say it's "too powerful" what I mean is it's designed to deliver horsepower at high revs not torque at low revs. For good measure it is also a bit big for the typical NB engine room and has a reputation for vibrating a lot. You see these engines commonly in river boats and small sea boats where they are more likely to get up to speed. The fact that Iron Maiden was born on the Nene gives a clue as to why the Perkins was chosen. That and the fact that these engines were made in Peterborough.

 

I can't think of one successful automotive engine that has achieved popularity in the narrowboat environment. The 4108 was a very popular van engine, I think the original Transit had them, the BMC 1.5 was not successful in that field. What makes an engine suitable for a car/van probably makes it unsuitable for a narrowboat and vice versa.

[jhoff]

When you get into these things, the pros and cons of various engines, I quickly become very lost. What should one look for in an engine, then?

 

I am seeing this boat at the weekend: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48-foot-all-steel-residential-narrowboat-/111286513286?ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:GB:1123

 

And since the advert has so little information (and the pictures look a bit shabby but not drastically so, as far as I can tell), it could go either way. I'm not taking my experienced boaty pal like I did for my last viewing, so I'm feeling a bit apprehensive about handling the questioning and prying and inspecting by myself. What are the key things you would look for (it has been taken out of the water and recently had a hull survey - recently, apparently, as in a couple of days ago) that would be immediate warning signs to you guys?

 

I thank you once again for all your advice. I can only hope you get a lot out of hashing it out over boat minutiae because I feel as though I'm getting a lot of help out of this.

 

EDITED TO ADD: This eBay boat will have a lower asking price as well, I think, because I don't want it with the mooring.

Edited March 5, 2014 by jhoff

[John Williamson 1955]

When you get into these things, the pros and cons of various engines, I quickly become very lost. What should one look for in an engine, then?

 

I am seeing this boat at the weekend: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48-foot-all-steel-residential-narrowboat-/111286513286?ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:GB:1123

 

For an engine, you need enough power for the use you're going to make of the boat. A boat which will never go on a river needs less power than one which will be pushing against the stream all the time. A well known make is a good idea, too, as that should ensure that spares will be easily available. Lister/Petter are common, and easy to maintain, as are BMC engines. (Edit) A reasonably clean engine and engine 'ole is good, a spotless engine may have been cleaned to destroy evidence of leaks. A dirty engine room lets you draw your own conclusions about the overall level of maintenance.

 

As the boat is, according to the advert, probably still out of the water, get a surveyor to do at least a hull survey, unless you can afford to take a chance on the vendor's survey being worth the paper it's written on. The survey may have been requested by the insurance company as a condition of continued cover. I would only worry badly if the advert had been posted just after the survey had been carried out. As this advert was posted before the survey, it may just be routine.

Edited March 5, 2014 by John Williamson 1955