Considering my first boat. Help?

[Athy]

J, sorry if the conversation drifted off towards engines. Some of us (including, I am ashamed to admit, this boy) go like that sometimes. But in this case rest assured that Lister (if regularly maintained) = good - and British!

The seller does not seem top know who built the boat. She has a long back deck, hence less livable space inside. Apart from that, she looks like a contender!

Edited March 5, 2014 by Athy

[jhoff]

Oh man, no don't apologise! This extensive engine debate would all be great information if I could retain and understand it a little better.

 

Yeah, I have a lot of questions to ask the seller - I mean, I would hope they know the boat's age and maker, along with a bunch of other stuff which wasn't put in the advert, but we'll see, I guess.

 

John Williamson - yes, that would be a bad sign. According to the seller, the boat was coming out of the water on the 3rd (and is out now for two weeks) and then had a survey shortly after. I reckon that's probably legit? But who knows!!

[John Williamson 1955]

 

John Williamson - yes, that would be a bad sign. According to the seller, the boat was coming out of the water on the 3rd (and is out now for two weeks) and then had a survey shortly after. I reckon that's probably legit? But who knows!!

If the advert had been placed on the 4th, I'd worry about what had been found, As it was posted *before* the survey, the only reasons to pay for a survey are routine, or the owner suspecting a problem, and wanting confirmation or otherwise. Your survey will show which it is. If you ask politely, you should be told the reason for the survey, and you may even be shown a copy.

 

(Edit) If you go on to Jim Shead's website and search for the boat's CRT number or name, then you will find out the builder and probable date of build, but that information's not reliable.

 

http://www.jim-shead.com/waterways/boats.php

Edited March 6, 2014 by John Williamson 1955

[Neil2]

Oh man, no don't apologise! This extensive engine debate would all be great information if I could retain and understand it a little better.

 

Yeah, I have a lot of questions to ask the seller - I mean, I would hope they know the boat's age and maker, along with a bunch of other stuff which wasn't put in the advert, but we'll see, I guess.

 

John Williamson - yes, that would be a bad sign. According to the seller, the boat was coming out of the water on the 3rd (and is out now for two weeks) and then had a survey shortly after. I reckon that's probably legit? But who knows!!

One observation on the ebay boat that would put me right off it. - It looks to me like it has a full set of deck boards. This means two things, first, especially with an air cooled Lister it will be NOISY. Second, the engine bilge will almost certainly be constantly wet with rain water. Though this doesn't bother some people apparently.

 

Engines - yes we do get a bit carried away from time to time don't we. To try and be constructive, as John W says, to a large extent it depends how you are going to use the boat. On the inland waterways you can get vastly different conditions. If you intend to spend most or all of your time on canals, the engine is going to be doing very little work, running slowly and ticking over for long periods. So an engine that isn't designed for this type of life isn't a good idea. You will see air cooled Listers and BMC 1.5's all over the network primarily because they suffer no ill effects at all from this lifestyle. But if you envisage significant journeys on rivers, especially those with a bit of flow, you would appreciate something with a bit more power than a Lister. This is not to say a Lister can't cope with rivers, but that Perkins 4108 would be much happier, for example.

 

If you get a boat with a "modern" engine, like the various Japanese types, and possible the water cooled Listers, you can sort of disregard all this because modern diesels seem to be able to cope with a variety of situations without drama, but on the canals there are still loads and loads of boats with engines that were designed in the first half of the last century so if it has say an air cooled Lister or Perkins 4108 you have to ask will that be suitable for the sort of boating I intend to do.

 

Of all the old engines that you see in narrowboats I would say a really safe bet is the BMC 1.5 simply because it doesn't mind chugging along canals but at the same time you can wind it up if needs be and it will put out enough power for most boats. The only downside is they do like to mark their spot ie they have a tendency to leak oil.

[jhoff]

I seeeeee. That definitely makes a lot of sense - thank you for that! That is really solid advice and I will bear it in mind when poking my head into engine rooms and making contemplative noises. What do you mean by a "full set of deck boards"? Do you mean that the whole cruiser deck is removable to reach the engine rather than just having one section that lifts up?

 

Also, I recently spotted this pop up: http://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=335036

Seems like a crazy price to be at unless the replating is going to be a huge amount? I think it's quite a few feet bigger than I wanted to get anyway, but couldn't help nose in at the price.

[Athy]

A first glance shows that this is a Liverpool Boats shell (that curved flare on the bows is as distinctive as any car radiator design). 10 to 15 year ago the firm was in full flow, knocking out dozens of shells which sold quite cheaply. Some they fitted out themselves, others were professionally fitted out elsewhere, but a proportion were bought by enthusiasts who wanted to fit them out themselves.

Some were never completed - you still see them around the system, looking rather sorry for themselves. This one obviously was, and to these untrained eyes the chap did a pretty fair job.

So, part of the reason for the modest price is cheap shell +unknown fitter. This combination usually reduces prices. But in a boat only ten years old, the replating necessity is an issue. Perhaps contact the broker to find out why this work is required so early in the boat's life.

Gosh, what a woffle. Conciseness of expression is never my strong point, and at seven in the morning even less so. Hope the above makes sense.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Athy

[Albion]

Hhhmm, I'd be a little worried by this statement in the ad:

 

Re-listed at £17,500 due to work required post survey which includes some re-plating, Mystic Winds is now offered for sale with several known defects.
A full survey report is not readily available however we can offer further information based upon available estimates for work.

 

Re-plating on a 2003 boat sounds premature deterioration to me. Mysterious reference to 'several known defects' and an existing survey report 'not readily available'. A 2003 boat going for £17,500.

You'd need to go into that deal with your eyes wide open and a good surveyor IMO.

Roger

[Athy]

I wonder how it is that, if these defects have been revealed by a recent survey, this survey is not available. It damned well should be.

[Albion]

I wonder how it is that, if these defects have been revealed by a recent survey, this survey is not available. It damned well should be.

The survey belongs to the person who commissioned it. So, if the survey was commissioned by a potential buyer who then withdrew due to the amount of faults, that could be an explanation for the unavailability of the report, but the owner would have been verbally informed of the defects of course. That is the only thing that I can think of.

Roger

[jhoff]

Exactly, right? That rang a lot of alarm bells for me too. I'm not sure I'll go in for it since I don't really want a boat at 58ft and it seems like it could potentially be more troublesome than a secret bargain. I'm just quite intrigued as to what's going on with it. I might put in a query to see if I can find out a bit more about what's wrong with it because, yes, like you guys said - it seems too new to be in that much trouble...

[Neil2]

I seeeeee. That definitely makes a lot of sense - thank you for that! That is really solid advice and I will bear it in mind when poking my head into engine rooms and making contemplative noises. What do you mean by a "full set of deck boards"? Do you mean that the whole cruiser deck is removable to reach the engine rather than just having one section that lifts up?

 

Also, I recently spotted this pop up: http://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=335036

Seems like a crazy price to be at unless the replating is going to be a huge amount? I think it's quite a few feet bigger than I wanted to get anyway, but couldn't help nose in at the price.

Exactly.

 

And plywood is less effective at stopping noise than steel, and the boards vibrate... It sounds nice to be able to expose the entire engine room but it isn't. You can't get the water on deck to drain away properly either, which is why I said the bilge will be constantly filling up with rain water.

 

Re the Liverpool boat - there is a lot of this about at the moment. It seems that surveyors are getting more and more skittish particularly with boats that have less than 10mm baseplates. Anything that reduces the hull thickness to less than 4mm even if it is just localised pitting seems to result in a recommendation to overplate. This scares sellers as much as buyers so they knock the price right down as they just want rid of the thing. Now there are canny folk all over the network that are buying up such boats, getting them fixed up and reselling at a profit.

 

Most, not all, of these boats probably have years of life left in them before the structural work becomes necessary, so it is a way of getting afloat on the cheap whilst you save up for the eventual expense.

 

When boats were routinely built with 6/6/4, or even 6/5/3 specs, you would have had hundreds of boaters all over the system happily cruising around with less then 4mm of steel between them and the canal, but everyone runs for the hills these days.

 

If you look at the "scantlings" - there's a new word for you to look up - of sea going boats it is amazing how thin the steel on them is compared to narrowboats. 1/8" was the norm for a long time, now 3/16" about 5mm is about as thick as you would see on a cruising boat.

[Athy]

I think scantlings is a delightful word. It should be the name of a small snack sold in pubs to accompany your beer. "Pint of Old Mottled Cock* and a packet of scantlings, please".

 

 

* I am not making this up. It's brewed by Leadmill in Derbyshire. I have drunk some!

[jhoff]

I like this word. I think a strong contender for a potential boat name.

Don't some insurance companies require a certain hull thickness? Or is it just general fear of sinking that has caused this fear?

 

Another boat on my radar is a 1985 Gorton & Wilson build which the owner tells me, on recommendation from a surveyor, has been completely overplated in 2009 "to the base and up to bow plates and in the swim".

 

Also it was "coated with International 362 epoxy to sides and weed hatch" which apparently has a ten year guarantee.

 

It sounds like this guy has taken pretty good care of this boat, which his son used as a liveaboard for 4 years not so long ago and since then has been a holiday boat, I guess. It's currently out of the water, I think it sounds like a pretty good option to me, in spite of its age.

 

Plus, a BMC 1.5 which I HEAR is a good all-rounder, righttttt???

[Athy]

Good all-rounder yes, and if you run it slowly enough, people will almost think that you have a vintage engine! I believe that spare parts are easy to get and that there is no shortage of mechanics who know how to service them - unlike a Kromhout or a Seffle for example (yes, these exist too).

As the boat is on hard standing, if you like her then it will be a good opportunity to get a survey done without incurring the expense of craning or pulling the boat out of the water.

[jhoff]

I think now you're just making words up......

[Athy]

I think now you're just making words up......

Betcha I'm not. Seffles were Swedish engines. Kromhout built Gardner engines under licence in Holland. Both can be found in small numbers in UK narrowboats but, unless you are far cleverer with mechanicals than me, avoid!

Scantlings'll be OK though.

[Neil2]

I think scantlings is a delightful word. It should be the name of a small snack sold in pubs to accompany your beer. "Pint of Old Mottled Cock* and a packet of scantlings, please".

 

 

* I am not making this up. It's brewed by Leadmill in Derbyshire. I have drunk some!

I remember in my serious drinking days we invented a game which involved trying to think up the most ridiculous and/or obscene names for real ales. You can amuse yourself for hours by just thinking up a mildly offensive word and stick "Old" in front of it.

I dare not repeat the one that we all agreed was the outright winner, but in the modern era it would be difficult to dream up names that beat the actual monikers attached to some brews.

 

BTW Athy you are dead right about the BMC - we did quite a bit of the HNC with a guy who had a 1.5, he had it rebuilt and got the tickover right down so it did a very good impression of something more venerable. Unfortunately he got a bit carried away and stuck a massive prop on it as well so it was smoking like a vintage engine too.

[junior]

Betcha I'm not. Seffles were Swedish engines. Kromhout built Gardner engines under licence in Holland. Both can be found in small numbers in UK narrowboats but, unless you are far cleverer with mechanicals than me, avoid!

Scantlings'll be OK though.

I nearly bought a boat with a Kromhout M1 in it instead of Albion (Firefly at WFBCo). Now and again when I hear one of these engines running, I kick myself I didn't buy it.

[Athy]

You won't kick yourself if you need spare parts. Your boat has a Petter, hasn't she? Petter still exists (as part of Lister).

[jhoff]

I would bet good money that I do not know more about mechanicals than you, Athy. So I will aim to keep it simple.

 

I've had some more thoughts, since considering this re-shoed Gorton & Wilson (does re-shoed mean the hull has been replaced?), which is through a private seller. What is the normal order of boat-purchasing? Viewing, making a deposit, getting a survey, making an offer? Or some other jumbled order of that? And is there any legal protection in these cases, like ways to prove boat ownership and guarantees you aren't going to get totally screwed after paying the deposit?

[Athy]

You might lose. I'd had our current boat for two years before I found out where you put the oil in.

 

Regarding private sales, most sellers are above board and simply wish to sell a boat which they own. A few, from stories which one hears, are not. There's less risk if you buy through a broker, though of course you'd pay a bit more because the broker wants his fee (typically, I think, 6% of the purchase price).

 

I've never bought privately, but I'm sure some of m'learned friends who have done so will be along shortly with good advice.

[Alan de Enfield]

View

Make an offer

Offer accepted

Pay deposit - subject to their being work to a maximum of £x, or if in excess of this owner will pay for repairs or deposit returned

Surveyor

Balance paid or deposit returnrd depending on outcome of survey.

 

No way to prove ownership except maybe a few invoices, boat licence details etc in the owners name.

No guarantees you wont be screwed.

[Athy]

The owner should have a bill of sale from when he bought the boat second hand, or invoices from when he had it built new, surely?

[Neil2]

View

Make an offer

Offer accepted

Pay deposit - subject to their being work to a maximum of £x, or if in excess of this owner will pay for repairs or deposit returned

Surveyor

Balance paid or deposit returnrd depending on outcome of survey.

 

No way to prove ownership except maybe a few invoices, boat licence details etc in the owners name.

No guarantees you wont be screwed.

I don't really go along with that - if your offer is accepted the reason you pay a deposit is so both parties have a degree of commitment to the sale, but it's not a "down payment". The alternative is the seller doesn't know if he/she will ever hear from you again, and the buyer could go to the expense of a survey only to find the boat has been sold to someone else. However, a deposit should be unconditionally refundable, but you will find especially with brokers that they often write into the contract for sale that the deposit is only refundable if eg works above a certain value or of a certain nature are discovered.

 

Whatever you do, and this applies particularly to the inexperienced, do not pay out a significant sum that removes your freedom to walk away if something doesn't feel right. The "quality" brokers will not attempt to shackle you to a sale, there are some that most certainly will.

 

It is reasonable given the number of timewasters in the narrowboat world, for a seller to insist on a deposit before allowing you to take the boat out on the water. But again, you should make it perfectly clear that if you are not totally happy you expect to have the money returned. Having said that, I've taken five or six boats out prior to purchase without a deposit, it's all a question of convincing the seller that you are genuine though how desperate he/she is to sell the boat comes into it as well.

 

Incidentally, I find it surprising the number of boaters I meet that didn't even have a "sea trial" before they went ahead with their purchase, I've even met one or two that bought their boats without even seeing them in the water. Even if you don't think you are going to gain much from it don't be tempted to buy a boat without a test drive.

[Alan de Enfield]

Neil2, on 08 Mar 2014 - 2:27 PM, said:Neil2, on 08 Mar 2014 - 2:27 PM, said:

I don't really go along with that - if your offer is accepted the reason you pay a deposit is so both parties have a degree of commitment to the sale, but it's not a "down payment". The alternative is the seller doesn't know if he/she will ever hear from you again, and the buyer could go to the expense of a survey only to find the boat has been sold to someone else. However, a deposit should be unconditionally refundable, but you will find especially with brokers that they often write into the contract for sale that the deposit is only refundable if eg works above a certain value or of a certain nature are discovered.

 

Whatever you do, and this applies particularly to the inexperienced, do not pay out a significant sum that removes your freedom to walk away if something doesn't feel right. The "quality" brokers will not attempt to shackle you to a sale, there are some that most certainly will.

 

It is reasonable given the number of timewasters in the narrowboat world, for a seller to insist on a deposit before allowing you to take the boat out on the water. But again, you should make it perfectly clear that if you are not totally happy you expect to have the money returned. Having said that, I've taken five or six boats out prior to purchase without a deposit, it's all a question of convincing the seller that you are genuine though how desperate he/she is to sell the boat comes into it as well.

 

Incidentally, I find it surprising the number of boaters I meet that didn't even have a "sea trial" before they went ahead with their purchase, I've even met one or two that bought their boats without even seeing them in the water. Even if you don't think you are going to gain much from it don't be tempted to buy a boat without a test drive.

 

I could have listed what I have done for the last 3 boats (last 15 years or so) that I have bought.

 

View, see engine running in and out of gear

Offer

Offer accepted

Paid cash in full

Driven away

 

No 'sea trials, no surveyor'

 

It is quite surprising how negotiable & 'motivated to sell' a seller can be when presented with a briefcase full of notes.

 

Not quite sure how the seller explains to his bank the £x,000's cash and doesn't contravene the money laundering act - but thats their problem

 

Other purchasing methods are available.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Alan de Enfield