Considering my first boat. Help?

[Grace and Favour]

I'm in a very similar position to the original poster, which is handy because reading all your responses to her questions (many of which I have wondered myself) has been fantastic.

 

About buying old boats - is it still a bad idea to buy an older boat if it has already been overplated?

 

And, apart from asking the seller what's really going on, does there appear to be any obvious reason to you seasoned boaters why this boat:

 

Thank you! And hello!

Make sure you get the boat surveyed by a certified surveyor BEFORE you buy it - - and, as an aside, if you are looking to moor in London, please make sure you've a proper mooring first!

[Lady Muck]

Make sure you get the boat surveyed by a certified surveyor BEFORE you buy it - - and, as an aside, if you are looking to moor in London, please make sure you've a proper mooring first!

Yep, in my opinion, the situation in London - more boats arriving every week - still the same minimal (i.e. pathetic) amount of services (6 water taps and perhaps 4 elsans between about 2000 people) - boaters forced into rough areas because the safe areas are always full, meaning lots of crime- 9 break ins where I moor in the space of 1 week - it's starting to get a bit ontop. Not feeling at all optimistic about the future, if I'm honest.

[Dottyshirl]

(I've removed the advertising link)

Edited February 13, 2014 by Grace & Favour
removing link

[jhoff]

So would it generally be a bad idea to buy a boat older than 25 years as a first boat? Or is it just that it'll require extra surveys and care compared to a newer boat?

[bottle]

So would it generally be a bad idea to buy a boat older than 25 years as a first boat? possibly, maybe perhaps. depends on the condition of the boat

Or is it just that it'll require extra surveys and care compared to a newer boat? Whichever boat you buy then survey and care are needed, even brand new.

 

Not being awkward, honest, it is just that there are so many computations on the condition that it is not possible to say for certain.

 

A bit like buying a twenty year old Rolls Royce or a twenty year old Ford escort of course the Ford maybe in concourse condition and the Rolls Royce been in a barn for the last ten years.

[Grace and Favour]

So would it generally be a bad idea to buy a boat older than 25 years as a first boat? Or is it just that it'll require extra surveys and care compared to a newer boat?

A 25 year-old boat in good condition, may be better than a 3 year-old boat in bad condition. However, there are fewer of the former, unless you wish to buy an historic boat.

 

But firstly - are you looking for an holiday boat, a liveaboard, will you be covering hundreds of miles per annum, or just pootling a mile or so from your base mooring.

 

Secondly - will the boat be in London - or elsewhere in the UK

[Alan de Enfield]

As bottle says yes &/or No - but just consider :

 

Look at the insides of the boat - remember it has 'done' as many years as the outside, is it 'dated', does it need refitting ?, are the appliances working and safe ?

Is it to your taste (older boats tend to have 'dark' interiors) ?

How many hours has the engine done ? Has it been replaced ?

Will you (and the other half - if you have one) be happy with it after the initial Rose tinted glasses have come off ?

 

Whilst the hull of the boat is what it is and cannot be changed (except overplating) the inside can be modified at a cost.

 

Is there a (as an example) 10 year old boat with 'what you want' but is more expensive ?

 

Is the 25 year old boat cheaper than the 10 year old boat by enough to make it a worthwhile investment after the cost of any work is taken into account

 

This is my personal opinion (and any one else is entitled to it) but boats are for using, sitting on/in and enjoying - I want to be out 'doing' not busy replacing things that turned out to be problematic, i do all the necessary maintenance but thats it. I'm not an obsessive brass polisher.

 

Boat yards are 'littered' with projects that have become just abandoned - maybe you have the commitment to spend years fitting out but I dont.

 

Buy the best (and thats not necessarily the newest) you can afford.

[jhoff]

Thank you lots, everyone, this is all very excellent and thorough advice. I think on some level I was just naively, hopelessly, trying to find some kind of "rule" to buying that would be useful to then weeding out "good" and "bad" boats, but I know, there is no such thing - it all depends.

 

I am looking for a liveaboard, but my budget is probably, realistically, around £25K. I don't want to get a project, since I'm relatively new to this so would rather have a steady baseline for getting used to.

 

I think my tastes are fairly flexible - I would like something that worked well over something that looked great - and I guess I'm just trying to buy carefully...

[jhoff]

I feel as though I have kind of hijacked this thread for myself. Apologies to the OP.

 

I am looking at these two soon:

http://www.apolloduck.com/advert.phtml?id=344114

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/advert.phtml?id=301523

 

And really keen on both, although both have different pros and cons (I guess obviously, since they're pretty different from one another).

 

Do any of you more experienced boaters have any thoughts on either? Do they seem legit? Will they sink instantly due to some secret fault the untrained eye cannot see?

 

Any advice greatly appreciated.

[Athy]

You have an eye for a good boat miss Hoff! Both are from builders which were very reputable in their day, though that wasn't yesterday or even the day before.

Obviously the Hancock & Lane, being much longer, should have a lot more living space. The interior looks "tired" but sound, judging by what we can see from the pics. The other one, though, appears to use space well. Not sure about the advert's use of "beautiful" but it's appealing in an ugly-pretty way. It also has a nice old Norwegian fishing boat engine, spares are still available though might not be cheap. It seems to have a good spec and to have been well looked after.

As for sinking , they haven't yet, have they? But you should get a HULL SURVEY, will cost a few hundred but might save you a few thousand! This will tell you the condition and thickness of the steel and the surveyor will advise you what, if any, work needs doing to make sure that sinking is not an option.

 

Where do you intend to moor? Note that the Denis Cooper boat is at Ely which, though connected to the main canal system, is a loooooong way away from it. (Note that boats can be, and often are, transported to new locations by lorry).

Edited February 18, 2014 by Athy

[JBoaB]

I'm finding this thread useful as I'm hoping to move jobs and it would mean finding accomadation midweek and see it as a possible opportunity to stick my toe in the water*, but not for a few months at least.

 

I love the little yellow one jhoff, I'm a bit of a novice as I've never owned a boat but the write up is well put together and really sells the plus points and creates a wonderful image of living on board. I'm not sure 38' would be enough but I guess it is well used.

 

The one tip I think I have gleaned from this thread seems to be 'avoid pump out toilets' is the porta potty refering to a cassette???

 

*Yes it's a pun and I meant it.....

[Athy]

Hey J,

Yes indeed, the Thetford Porta Potti is the leading brand of cassette loo. They have dominated the market for years so they certainly are not crap.

 

 

Oh, hang on....

[MtB]

Athy is right about your eye for a good builder!

 

And I bet that Dennis Cooper boat looks WAY better in the flesh than in the clumsy photos. He put the cabin and counter stern on REGINALD and I find the proportions sublimely, delightfully 'right'. I never tire of admiring his skill and art.

 

MtB

[Neil2]

Barkley has been for sale for a long time. I know it is in a somewhat remote location but a boat with that sort of provenance should have sold by now. Means of escape from the bedroom might be an issue for many, the side hatch is over the kitchen sink.

 

The H&L doesn't look like a H&L to me, and though the photo isn't very good it might even be a grp cabin - I'd ask the questions.

 

Both boats would probably need a full survey to get comprehensive insurance.

[jhoff]

You have an eye for a good boat miss Hoff! Both are from builders which were very reputable in their day, though that wasn't yesterday or even the day before.

Obviously the Hancock & Lane, being much longer, should have a lot more living space. The interior looks "tired" but sound, judging by what we can see from the pics. The other one, though, appears to use space well. Not sure about the advert's use of "beautiful" but it's appealing in an ugly-pretty way. It also has a nice old Norwegian fishing boat engine, spares are still available though might not be cheap. It seems to have a good spec and to have been well looked after.

As for sinking , they haven't yet, have they? But you should get a HULL SURVEY, will cost a few hundred but might save you a few thousand! This will tell you the condition and thickness of the steel and the surveyor will advise you what, if any, work needs doing to make sure that sinking is not an option.

 

Where do you intend to moor? Note that the Denis Cooper boat is at Ely which, though connected to the main canal system, is a loooooong way away from it. (Note that boats can be, and often are, transported to new locations by lorry).

 

Why thank you! I have, for a few months now, been obsessively searching these forums with any names or specs I read in adverts to see their general reputation. This forum is a huge resource and I thank you regulars for it.

 

I'm not too bothered by if an interior looks a bit old or is decorated in a boring way. Over time, and with some guidance from my mother, I should be able to reupholster things/stick some paint on/make curtains etc. to change that without too much cost. In fact, I'd rather buy something that looked a bit dated inside since it's not hard to alter and can drive down the price.

 

Yes! Hull survey, definitely. This is the main thing I have taken away from this thread.

 

And I'm intending to more in (don't yell at me) London since this is where I live now and work (but really hoping to be out of London soon and move somewhere else since I have always lived in London and I'd like a change). I was surprised how long the drive would be since it feels so fast on the train - but what is the estimate? 2 weeks of full days driving? To be honest, I have a pretty averagely-paid zero-hour job, so my time isn't worth all that much. I think I could spare 2 weeks to drive it down with occasional company.

 

Athy is right about your eye for a good builder!

 

And I bet that Dennis Cooper boat looks WAY better in the flesh than in the clumsy photos. He put the cabin and counter stern on REGINALD and I find the proportions sublimely, delightfully 'right'. I never tire of admiring his skill and art.

 

MtB

 

Oh yeah? This is good to know. I'm going to see it in a couple of weeks. My main worry was that it would be a bit too small for me, but it does looks nice.

 

Barkley has been for sale for a long time. I know it is in a somewhat remote location but a boat with that sort of provenance should have sold by now. Means of escape from the bedroom might be an issue for many, the side hatch is over the kitchen sink.

 

The H&L doesn't look like a H&L to me, and though the photo isn't very good it might even be a grp cabin - I'd ask the questions.

 

Both boats would probably need a full survey to get comprehensive insurance.

 

Yes, that thing about about escape doors did cross my mind. What might be the implications of this? I'm screwed if I set the boat on fire?

 

According to Barkley's owner, he's got a new job which isn't near where Barkley is moored anymore so cannot devote as much time to selling. I may be naive in my desire to assume people are generally decent by default, but I am inclined to trust him.

 

This thing about the H&L not looking like a H&L is very interesting. How can you tell? And how might I be able to get proof that it is/isn't from the owner when I view?

 

Thank you all for the help!!

[Athy]

Yes, that thing about about escape doors did cross my mind. What might be the implications of this? I'm screwed if I set the boat on fire?

 

Your assessment is both succinct and accurate. But there is no reason why a hatch could not be installed just above the sticky-out bit (technical term which we boaters use) or just forward of the front winbow.

 

You have been assiduously reading this forum? We shall blush collectively! But have you been around looking at BOATS? A boat can look great on paper but the moment you set foot in it you go "Bleeuurrgghh" (more jargon here); conversely, the one moored next to it, which you had not even considered on the broker's advert, might be just what you wanted, only you did not realise until you set eyes on it. Have you been to Whilton Marina beside the A5? That's where you can view the greatest number of sale boats (though not necessarily the greatest sale boats) together in one place.

 

The more I look at Barkley the more I'm impressed. She appears to have been well looked after and has a particularly high electrical spec (higher than our fairly expensive 2006 new-build!) I suspect that one reason why she has not sold is her unusual lines - people admire other people's strange-looking boats but are reluctant to buy one for themselves.

Good luck with the hunt, I remember looking for our first boat 15 years ago, it was sometimes frustrating but always exciting.

 

And finally: there is a web site called Canalplan into which you can enter your start and finish points, and it will show you the route and tell you how long it should take. To get Barkley "home" you would have to take her along the Great Ouse, through the Middle Levels, along the River Nene and either down the Grand Union to London or down the Oxford Canal to the Thames and thence to London. At journey's end you would be an experienced and knackered boater! Still worth thinking about the low-loader lorry option though.

Mike

[Neil2]

Athy, not for the first time, is spot on. (carry on blushing...) The first lesson you learn is not to get carried away by either photos or specs, most boats are a big disappointment in the flesh. Barkley could be an exception but she's not seen much activity for a while and the owner doesn't live nearby, so I doubt it. But she is one of those boats that I keep looking at and hoping that someone will adopt her. I would have had a look but she's just too small for us. Bear in mind that by now the owner must have had a number of viewers, so why has no-one made a reasonable offer? One other thing is Sabb engines are expensive to fix, it's the price of the parts.

 

At least the owner has now come down to a sensible price and by now must really want to pass her on so any potential buyer is really in the driving seat.

 

As for the H&L I could well be wrong but the windows don't look like any H&L I've ever seen and they look like the originals. Many H&L boats had a makers plate so that's one way to tell for sure, but you could start by asking for the licence number/name and see what Jim Shead's boat listing says.

[jhoff]

How much would you reckon (I know, I know, these things vary) it would cost to install a I-Don't-Want-To-Die hatch? I mean - £100s? £1000s? Just so I have an idea of the overall price these things will be.

 

I haven't been to see any boats that are on sale, which is bad, I know. I've been about on other boats belonging to others, but none with a view to buy. I should start, I know, but also I have a stupid job with difficult hours so it can be hard. I'd heard Whilton Marina was terrible from a lot of people? I guess it might be good to go along to look and be nosy rather than trying to buy one there and then though.

 

I suspect that Barkley might be too small for me too (in terms of my belongings. I am physically a small to normal sized person), which is where the "H&L" 50ft wins out, but I would intend to install solar panels if I got a boat that didn't have any, and the windowed doors + big windows of the "H&L" seem like a bit of a security issue in London.

 

So many things to think about..... I should view more boats.

[Athy]

More boats? You should view SOME boats.

I assume that your "stupid" job does grant you the occasional day off?

Whilton is a very good place for looking at boats. here's how it works. You turn up (no appointment necessary). You find the sale boats (they are all or nearly all parked together at one end of the marina). You wander round, making a note of the names of 3 or 4 which you would like to view inside. You go to the office and request the keys, and you may wander round free-range and unsupervised, in your own

time. Obviously they would rather like you to buy one but there's no obligation.

 

Not all marinas do this. Some insist on sending a salesman with you when you view a boat. This can be intrusive, sometimes they virtually sit on your shoulder like a bloody parrot.

 

As a sort of short cut you could look at Whilton's web site and select the boats you would like to view before you travel there. If you don't drive, the main line out of Euston goes right past the marina - and I do mean RIGHT past it, I remember from when we used to moor there. I think the nearest station is Long Buckby but you can check that.

 

Edit: you were remarkably close in your estimate of travelling time from Ely to London, I checked the route from Ely to Kings Cross, 197 miles, 13 days, said Canal Plan.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Athy

[jhoff]

SOME BOATS!

Yes, sometimes I do get a day off from work, although often midweek which is not the favoured day for many sellers, but could definitely wander over to a marina. I didn't realise that was possible at Whilton, I will go along to have a spy.

 

And I would love to take credit for amazing estimation, but I think I did look at that site when I was assessing places I could reasonably get a boat from without craning it out. Arriving totally tired is not such a problem, and arriving to busy London as an significantly more experienced boat driver can only be a good thing, so I'm pretty up for it.

[JBoaB]

I think it would be fun to pick a boat up and spend a few weeks relocating it. I'd worry a bit about encountering teething troubles and the thought of rivers scare me a bit but I suppose it's all part of growing up.

 

Are you single handed jhoff? I believe it is possible to get through locks solo on a rope but I'd want some instruction 1st and I'd imagine something as small as Barkley would be easier to deal with. My experience of locks has been windlass only.

 

I think I'm formulating an idea of the sort of boat I'd like. Something like a 45' cruiser stern with a reverse layout and the fixed cabin in the bow like the example of Barkley you showed us jhoff. The stuff on here has convinced me of a cassette toilet as well.

[Athy]

You'll find that those bow extension cabins are not so common, except in older boats which have had them put on to provide extra living space. Some "tug style" boats have the bedroom under the front deck, probably fine unless you suddenly sit bolt upright in bed!

There are certainly ways of single-handing through locks. An ability and willingness to clamber probably helps. I tend to pull her out with a rope from the bank but then I'm not a great clamberer of lock ladders. If other people waiting for the lock realise you're on your own they often (in my experience) help with working the lock, thereby enabling you to stay on the boat.

[Neil2]

The way the market is at the mo. there seems to be a big step between boats under 40 foot and those over, regardless of design.

It's surprising what a difference say just two feet makes. I recall looking at a 38 foot trad last year and a 40 foot cruiser and the cruiser was much more spacious inside even though the trad didn't have a seperate cockpit, as such. I think it is because an extra two feet in a lounge is a big space on a boat.

 

So though I think the layout of Barkley makes a lot of sense, you still have a limited amount of room to work with so I suspect it feels a little tight inside.

 

IMHO 45 foot is the ideal size for a NB (guess what I have) because you can have a fixed bed and a decent sized lounge without too much compromise. But if we were liveaboards I would have to reconsider.

 

Times change don't they, I remember when I first became interested in narrowboats 40 foot was regarded as a big boat, it's starting to become entry level now.

[jhoff]

Yeah, I think it might be a little small, this is my biggest concern (after dying in fire).

 

If I do end up getting a boat and driving it back, I'd probably have a pal, one of my boatie friends, to come and help me in sections especially at the beginning. I have done locks before but never solo, I can imagine it'll be a bit of a hassle, so I'm going to try and convince various friends to come by "for a fun trip!" and help.... This is the plan, at least....

[JBoaB]

I'm not ready yet to dive in to boat ownership just yet. I'll hopefully know if it's realistic in a few weeks time but I'm trying to get an idea with some armchair searching. I've looked at this a couple of times:-

 

http://www.swanleybrokerage.co.uk/images/uploads/PDF/Pearl_Fisher_2.pdf

 

It seems quite close to what I think would suit me, apart from the pump out toilet. It strikes me that it's quite cheap compared to other examples and I'm not sure why except for a few tatty bits of paint in the photos. Is this where a hull inspection reveals lots of expense?

 

I will be in the area in a couple of weeks so I might pop in anyway and have a look, if it's still there.