Scumbling problem

[MtB]

Having spoken in some depth with Mr Speight about scumbling at the Crick Show, I bought all the paint, tools and general stuff he recommended directly from Craftmaster. He suggested I paint some practice panels on sheets of hardboard to develope my initial technique.

 

I have tried this and run into an immediate problem with my practice workpieces and I'd appreciate comments from anyone with a bit of experience/ability at scumbling. I bought "Scumble Undercoat" in Chrome Buff as suggested. I painted the practice boards with it, allowed it to dry a couple of days then tried scumbling on it. I diluted the scumble as directed.

 

The problem is, the scumble won't brush out onto the Chrome Buff undercoat. It shrinks back instantly and 'pools' into small blobs of paint straight from the brush. No amount of brushing out will make it stay uniformly spread out.

 

I called Craftmaster for technical advice and the bloke unhelpfully said (something like) "Yeah it would do that, the Chrome Buff is spirit based and the Scumble is water based. The scumble gets repelled. Try sanding and keying the Chrome buff". So I did, but makes no difference.

 

So my question is, how do YOU make your Ratcliffe Scumble stick to Craftmaster Chrome Buff scumble undercoat, please?

 

Many thanks!

 

MtB

[blackrose]

Whenever I hear about Craftmaster paints it's because someone is having problems...

 

Perhaps these products are ok in the hands of a professional like Mr Speight, but personally I'll always stick to the major brands who do enough R&D to make sure DIYers can get reasonable results.

 

Sorry, I know that doesn't help you Mike.

Edited June 11, 2013 by blackrose

[mark99]

Not much help but that reminds me of a 6 month project I once did on a rail bridge over the Thames in London.

 

We had to strip and recoat a corroding metal structure that was cantilvered off the main rail bridge. Not having done this before I hired the company coatings and wrap "expert" to spec it for my tender docs and assist with inspection of main contractors work. We erected a hanging scaffold under the structure bridging the entire Thames then gritblasted the structure then first coat went on well. The next coat however reacted with the first coat and ruined it. Needless to say consultant was asked to explain himself before being "off'ed". Then we found an external company who diagnosed the problem and sourced us correct materials.

 

Incidently I had to hire a licensed Thames Waterman to shadow us all day every day for months in case one of the contractors fell of into the Thames.

Edited June 11, 2013 by mark99

[MtB]

Whenever I hear about Craftmaster paints it's because someone is having problems...

 

 

I think that's because when someone uses Craftmaster paints and it all goes swimmingly, they don't feel the need to start a thread on here about it...

 

I'm a good example. I've used Craftmaster paint many times in the past and this is the first time I've had a prob!

 

 

MtB

[andywatson]

A couple of years ago I posted that Ratcliffes were about to drop their OIL based scumble due to meeting the new VOC regs.

Meanwhile I bought all the oil based stuff I could find from old decorators merchants etc and stocked up so as to be able to do my boat.

In the end I didn't use much of it and Meg Gregory, the signwriter who I know would put it to good use, bought most of my "stash" as a job lot although I still have a small emergency reserve left.

 

Even in the trade the water based stuff is known not to be so good.

See the tacit admission of this in para 5 of the following link:

http://www.decoratingdirect.co.uk/viewprod/r/RATOS/

 

How much do you need Mike ?

 

And while we are on the subject does anyone want to buy for half the new price :

1 Ratcliffes graining rocker 4"

2 Softening brush 3"

3 Flogging brush 4"

All in good condition and used for only one job.

Edited June 11, 2013 by andywatson

[Chris Pink]

Radcliffe scumble used to be oil based and then an oil based undercoat would do it. Now it's water based you'll need the Radcliffe undercoat.

 

I've yet to try the water based stuff but I'm suspicious. There are a couple of members on here that stockpiled some radcliffes when it was oil. I do remember there is another company doing oil glaze but I can't remember the name. Dave Moore would know.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Chris Pink

[Tom and Bex]

I know this doesn't help but I've just had exactly the same problem but with different brand paint so glad it's not just me!

 

I practised on a box that I painted in oil based undercoat probably 2 years ago and am quite pleased with the results for a first attempt but when I tried on the rear doors that I undercoated 2-3 weeks ago with the same paint had exactly your problem and could not get the scumble to take at all.

 

Was thinking of getting a waterbased paint or even emulsion mixed to the correct colour and trying that so will watch this thread with interest!

[Bobbybass]

I did some very nice scum-balling on my old boat..

 

I painted the panel with cheap..cream/yellowish ....Wilkinsons gloss paint.

I then used a black permananent marker pen and ruler to mark out the pretend edges of the wood and joins.

Once dry....I laid on some water based dark mahogany varnish. stroking it in line with my felt pen marks and painting in the direction that the wood grain would 'flow'.

 

I then 'stroked' it with some spatulas....silicone that I had cut 'notches' out of the edge...4 for a £1 from the pound shop...as well as some cheap plastic combs cut into the width of each bit of strip wood...10 for £1

I built this up in several coats...and being water based...if it looked ridiculous...I could just wipe it with a damp cloth and do it again.

I just did it..until it looked right.

 

It looked great in the end..and lasted years.

[RLWP]

I don't know if this will work. Try putting a coat of Pledge Multi-Surface Wax onto the top of the base coat and see if the scumble works on that. No matter what it says, it isn't wax, it's a water based acrylic (I think)

 

It's used by many modellers to make a neutral coat between dissimilar paints, most things stick to it

 

Richard

 

I'm not sure where my tin of scumble is or I'd try it for you

Edited June 11, 2013 by RLWP

[Chris Pink]

Hot tip.

[RLWP]

If it works

 

Richard

[Chris Pink]

Mind I think Mike's problem is the other way round. The undercoat is a good paint the scumble is not getting good press even when used with appropriate undercoats.

[sarahavfc]

This happened to me when I tried it for the first time, I found that the best thing to do is bush the scumble on then immediately wipe it off again with a rag, then brush the scumble back on and grain. Worked for me.

[madcat]

Time to do some looking up,if I can look in some old decorating books I may find a recipe for scumble . I have a cunning plan but will take time to do the research and report back.

Ratcliffes should have classified the stuff as artists material, maybe that would solve the problem.

 

If we can get clear oil based glaze then artist oils will supply the colour

[luctor et emergo]

I don't know if this will work. Try putting a coat of Pledge Multi-Surface Wax onto the top of the base coat and see if the scumble works on that. No matter what it says, it isn't wax, it's a water based acrylic (I think)

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

Is that the replacement for 'Future' floor polish? That was superb as a barrier coat, but sadly no longer available.

[RLWP]

Is that the replacement for 'Future' floor polish? That was superb as a barrier coat, but sadly no longer available.

 

Yes.

 

Richard

 

MORE: It don't half taste funny if you suck your paintbrush after using it

Edited June 11, 2013 by RLWP

[Taslim]

This happened to me when I tried it for the first time, I found that the best thing to do is bush the scumble on then immediately wipe it off again with a rag, then brush the scumble back on and grain. Worked for me.

I saw this done recently using the materials mentioned. The bace had been gently flatted and the guy said the 'scumble on,wipe of' thing whetted the surface so stoped the top coat running away. I'm now wondering if a similar trick, only using an apropriate solvent, would help me with lettering and lining.

Time to do some looking up,if I can look in some old decorating books I may find a recipe for scumble . I have a cunning plan but will take time to do the research and report back.

Ratcliffes should have classified the stuff as artists material, maybe that would solve the problem.

 

If we can get clear oil based glaze then artist oils will supply the colour

Ace idea madcat.

 

I'll dig out 'The Modern Painter & Decorator' (4 volume set, published May 1921) and see if i can find a recipe too.

 

'Phaps it won't fall of as quickly as the modern scumble.

[madcat]

That's the books I had in mind, I'd seen it at a relatives house. I'm away for a bit but will catch up on this topic when I get back. Will have time to experiment then too.

[blackrose]

 

I think that's because when someone uses Craftmaster paints and it all goes swimmingly, they don't feel the need to start a thread on here about it...

 

 

 

My opinion is also formed by a couple of boaters I know who've had bad results with Craftmaster. Perhaps you're right, but from memory I'm sure I've read about more problems with Craftmaster than for example, with International paints on here.

Edited June 12, 2013 by blackrose

[madcat]

I have to admit that Craftmaster paint hasn't always pleased me. I think it's marmite paint , you will either love it or hate it.

[dave moore]

Hi all

 

I've yet to use water based scumble, so can't add to anything already posted. If the oil based undercoat doesn't readily accept water based scumble, then I'd be inclined to use a water based undercoat....I've grained several cabins with oil baseed scumble over water based undercoats without problems.

 

The only supplier of clear oil based scumble I know of is Polyvine. You have to tint the stuff with an appropriate colourant which they also manufacture, again I've done a couple of jobs using it without problems but have yet to buy in stock, I may do so for the workshop I'm running at Watford at the National.

 

Phil should post regarding Craftmaster paint, although he is only marginally involved with the company these days. It was formulated originally as a professional product for industry use and I suspect that many non professionals expected a perfect finish without all of the graft that goes into a flawless coach painted finish....I recall a sign above the tutor's door where I learned lettering skills....they also trained painters and decorators.....it read

"The essence of good decorating id preparation"....as true now as then!!

 

To all having a go....good luck!

 

Dave

[casper ghost]

Hi all

 

I've yet to use water based scumble, so can't add to anything already posted. If the oil based undercoat doesn't readily accept water based scumble, then I'd be inclined to use a water based undercoat....I've grained several cabins with oil baseed scumble over water based undercoats without problems.

 

I've used this water based scumble, having never used the oil based stuff, and it worked fine for me, i'm obviously a complete novice. I used a standard water based wall emulsion paint, as suggested by Mr Moore, mixed to a similar colour to the one suggested. I was pleased with it. But maybe if i'd used oil based before I would be able to compare.

I like the,; being able to wash brushes in water, part too.

Casp'

[MtB]

A couple of years ago I posted that Ratcliffes were about to drop their OIL based scumble due to meeting the new VOC regs.

Meanwhile I bought all the oil based stuff I could find from old decorators merchants etc and stocked up so as to be able to do my boat.

In the end I didn't use much of it and Meg Gregory, the signwriter who I know would put it to good use, bought most of my "stash" as a job lot although I still have a small emergency reserve left.

 

Even in the trade the water based stuff is known not to be so good.

See the tacit admission of this in para 5 of the following link:

http://www.decoratingdirect.co.uk/viewprod/r/RATOS/

 

How much do you need Mike ?

 

And while we are on the subject does anyone want to buy for half the new price :

1 Ratcliffes graining rocker 4"

2 Softening brush 3"

3 Flogging brush 4"

All in good condition and used for only one job.

 

Thanks Andy, very kind! I guess I need about half a litre of Light Oak if you have it.. I need to re-scumble the planks painted on the outside of the cabin sides on ALDEBARAN. I guess there is about 200ft of 'planking' 5" wide to re-paint. Given the dilution I'd guess about half a litre of scumble would be enough? What do you think?

 

Unfortunately I've already bought a flogging brush and knotting tool (is that what you mean by a graining rocker?) I don't have a Softening brush, what's it for?

 

Interestingly I've tried the water based scumble on a water-based background colour now too and the results ae excellent! I'm not too sure about the durablilty of it on the outside of my boat though.

 

And once again, thank you to all who have replied. I'm off to Stoke Bruerne fest this weekend (provided my toothache subsides) so won't be able to experiment any further until next week.

 

MtB

[Chris Pink]

Half a litre? That's well industrial. Oil or water it's the varnish afterwards that keeps it on.

[MtB]

Half a litre? That's well industrial. Oil or water it's the varnish afterwards that keeps it on.

 

I reckon there is about 90 square feet of scumbling to apply.

 

The problem with water-based paints in my experience is their lack of physical resistance to scuffing, not weather resistance. The scumbing on the outside of my cabin gets a whole load of scuffing and the water-based paints I've used in the past have scratched off veeeery easily compared to oil based paints, hence my concern.

 

MtB