Is this normal or did we encounter a complete twunt?

[MtB]

It is a well known fact that a wide beam uses much less water than a narrow beam, when using a lock, so the owner of the wide beamed boat has earned the right to leave the gates open...

 

...(or is it the other way round?)

 

Depends how wide the lock is....

 

 

MtB

[bizzard]

If its a wide lock a narrow boat on its own would almost certainly only leave one gate open so would still cause a hold up for a wide boat going in.

[Ex- Member]

If there is a leak of a given size (of gap), the water flowing through it varies according to the height difference either side of the gap. So if the lock is kept empty or full due to the other gate being open, there will be the maximum height difference across the gap and therefore the maximum flow of water.

 

If we assume that one gate leaks badly and the other leaks barely, by closing both gates the total flow through the lock is limited to the one that leaks barely, rather than the one that leaks badly if the other gate is left open.

 

If both gates leak equally, the lock will settle half full and so the leak will be roughly halved because there will be half the height difference, and the two leaks are in series.

 

In summary, closing all gates and paddles will always result in less leakage through a lock. This is why plenty of lock flights have notices on them saying to close all gates and paddles on exit.

 

Also the Boaters Handbook makes the closing of gates standard practice so another reason is to avoid frustrating other boaters who are familiar with that standard practice. There are of course some locks which leak into the surrounding area that may be required to be left empty with bottom gate or paddle open, but these are individually signed. On rivers obviously there is no leakage issue.

 

Well that's all totally irrelevant unless a full lockfull leaks before the next boat comes along.

 

So if the bottom lock leaks less then the top lock the water level stays the same at the top, but still leaks water regardless.

 

If the bottom gate leaks more than the top gate and it's closed it's possible the lock will drain fully, but the top gate will still be leaking something so this would take a long time. It's only when that lock drains fully that it becomes a loss, it's very unlikely that would happen before another boat would come either way before it fully drained and use the water anyway.

 

Now turn it around and leave the bottom gates open, Now with the lock empty the pressure on the upper SMALLER gate seals it more, it already leaks less than the lower gates anyway, and now leaks even less again. Bearing in mind over time that at some stage the bottom and top gates would have opened and closed equal times, it would be almost impossible to attribute which gate leaked more, and even more difficult to attribute what would be wasted water or water that would be used by boats anyway.

 

I would conclude the un-necessary opening and closing of lock gates would cause more wear & tear costs to gates and lock moorings than the minimal amounts of leakage possibly caused by leaving one set of gates open.

 

And of course I can't disagree with carlt

 

so the owner of the wide beamed boat has earned the right to leave the gates open...

 

Good enough for me

[nicknorman]

 

Well that's all totally irrelevant unless a full lockfull leaks before the next boat comes along.

 

So if the bottom lock leaks less then the top lock the water level stays the same at the top, but still leaks water regardless.

 

If the bottom gate leaks more than the top gate and it's closed it's possible the lock will drain fully, but the top gate will still be leaking something so this would take a long time. It's only when that lock drains fully that it becomes a loss, it's very unlikely that would happen before another boat would come either way before it fully drained and use the water anyway.

 

Now turn it around and leave the bottom gates open, Now with the lock empty the pressure on the upper SMALLER gate seals it more, it already leaks less than the lower gates anyway, and now leaks even less again. Bearing in mind over time that at some stage the bottom and top gates would have opened and closed equal times, it would be almost impossible to attribute which gate leaked more, and even more difficult to attribute what would be wasted water or water that would be used by boats anyway.

 

I would conclude the un-necessary opening and closing of lock gates would cause more wear & tear costs to gates and lock moorings than the minimal amounts of leakage possibly caused by leaving one set of gates open.

 

And of course I can't disagree with carlt

 

so the owner of the wide beamed boat has earned the right to leave the gates open...

 

Good enough for me

There are of course many variables and unknowns, such as when the next boat is going to arrive. However there can be no doubt that closing both gates will reduce water leakage overall, and as I said, that is why it is standard practice. Technical arguments aside if you leave gates open people will consider you selfish and inconsiderate. So I suppose it depends in part how you feel about that.

[Ex- Member]

There are of course many variables and unknowns, such as when the next boat is going to arrive. However there can be no doubt that closing both gates will reduce water leakage overall, and as I said, that is why it is standard practice. Technical arguments aside if you leave gates open people will consider you selfish and inconsiderate. So I suppose it depends in part how you feel about that.

 

I suspect overall you're right, logically as you say both gates closed any leak is reduced to the gate that leaks the least, but many variables like debris pressures etc etc. My brother was a single handler, it made boating much easier if he approached an open lock and didn't hold people up like he would having to moor.

 

Personally I'll still leave gates open when no boats aroound, I really think water wastage is minimal. If you think that if all lock gates were closed the amount of engine running time used burning fuel whilst you moor of hover waiting for the gates to be opened churning up the canal etc etc, at the end of the day it's a waste of energy, closing a lock means it has to be opened again to be used and that's inconvenient and wasteful in many ways. Having read the other thread I would say more think it convenient than inconsiderate and it's definitely more logical IMO

[Chop!]

It is a well known fact that a wide beam uses much less water than a narrow beam, when using a lock, so the owner of the wide beamed boat has earned the right to leave the gates open...

 

...(or is it the other way round?)

I guess it depends, if you are narrow or broad-minded!

[keble]

It is a well known fact that a wide beam uses much less water than a narrow beam, when using a lock, so the owner of the wide beamed boat has earned the right to leave the gates open...

 

...(or is it the other way round?)

Carl, you are displaying a measure of uncertainty here.

It's making me nervous ...

[Alanji]

T'otheThis third lock was around a slight bend, so visibility was reduced until the bend had been cleared and as it was a quiet day on the water neither of us were rushing. As we came around the bend, we saw a boat coming our way through the top gates. It transpired that the man was single-handing, so t'other half sped up and told him she'd just closed the bottom gates of the second lock, but if he was going through then she'd go back and open them since he could leave these open for me. He didn't repsond to her, but instead proceeded to tie his centre line loosely to the open gate (stern within the lock and bow outside of it - plenty of photos available if I'm not being clear!), step off and walk round the bend to the next lock - all with a smug smile on his face (okay, so that bit is a personal comment, but it irked me). Seeing what he had done, and that I was now prevented from getting into the lock by his boat floating in the middle of the gates, I called over as he passed me, "is everything alright?" to which he replied, "she closed the gate" and carried on.

 

He does sound like he is a complete idiot. Interested to know how he managed to see the gate was closed when it was, as you say, round a bend?

[Athy]

. It transpired that the man was single-handing

 

 

What a delicate euphemism. Presumably he was steering with the other hand?

[billS]

Surely the correct way to minimise water use in a lock is to follow this procedure.

- ensure that your boat is as fully laden as possible, full fuel tank, water tank, toilet tank, groceries, people pets etc when entering the lock.

- Whilst in the lock unload all the people, pets, groceries and all moveable items, and empty the fuel, water and toilet tanks into pre-positioned bowsers.

- empty the lock,and drive the boat out (not forgetting to close the gate behind you?

- reload the boat with people, pets, groceries, and refill the tanks from the bowsers

 

then repeat at the next lock.

 

Well, thats how I do it. It's hard work but I think it's worth it, and if everyone did that, then the canals would be better for it.........

[nicknorman]

 

 

 

Personally I'll still leave gates open when no boats aroound, I really think water wastage is minimal.

Then sorry but you will be vilified and despised by the majority of boaters. And rightly so in my opinion. At least have a look at the boaters handbook page 13 http://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/141.pdf

[Terence]

Then sorry but you will be vilified and despised by the majority of boaters. And rightly so in my opinion. At least have a look at the boaters handbook page 13 http://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/141.pdf

 

I agree with you. Just couldn't type quick enough to say it before you. CaRT say close the gates, that should be it. If anyone disagrees with this rule then they should contact CaRT to complain and not inconvenience others just because they think is a silly rule.

 

To the original post, as many have said, the chap is a very sad man. Try to let it go and be the bigger person by just moving on.

 

To Carl

Terence

[lexicon]

Simple. Boat on a bank holiday before the Ricky festival, then the que and traffic levels will be such that another boat will always be waiting so no need to worry.

 

(insert smiley)

[Matthew Dowson]

Unfortunately there are the same amount of arses on the Cut as off it, if you dwelled on it you would take up stamp collecting instead, Shrug your shoulders and put the kettle on.

[bizzard]

When I'm out on a cruise I'm taking it easy and at peace with the world. If I see ahead to a lock with a lot of activity with boats and folk shouting and bawling, usually the old man bawling instruction to his Mrs working the lock I hang right back out of it and never go steaming into a melee at a lock, I wait patiently stooging about until they've all dispersed. I don't care how they've left the lock, gates open, closed, paddles up or down.

Don't get me wrong I'm not in the least bit anti-social, I just like peace when out acruising.

[pquinn]

twunt.without a doubt.sounds like a chauvinist pig ,control freak with a superiority complex on a power trip allso.your wife should have punched him in the throat.

[carlt]

Then sorry but you will be vilified and despised by the majority of boaters.

I'm not sure the "majority of boaters" really take it seriously enough to "vilify and despise" anyone for such a trivial "transgression", especially when they realise how, not only inconsequential the crime is but also it is the gate closers that are making the work, not the ones who leave the gate open.

 

Like Bizzard I really don't care enough if I have to open a gate, or it has been left open for me, to "vilify and despise" those who insist on closing them

 

If anyone disagrees with this rule then they should contact CaRT to complain and not inconvenience others just because they think is a silly rule.

It isn't a rule.

 

There is no obligation to even read the Boater's Handbook let alone abide by its contents.

 

.

Edited May 10, 2013 by carlt

[bizzard]

Lay him out and peg im down on the lockside, shove the hosepipe in his gob, secured to his lips with a Jubilee clip, turn on the tap, fill him up with water until he nearly pops then all jump about on his belly until he does go off pop. Then castrate him with a pickaxe, and leave him be.

[carlt]

Lay him out and peg im down on the lockside, shove the hosepipe in his gob...

You old softy....Surely it should be stuck up the other end?

[billS]

You old softy....Surely it should be stuck up the other end?

 

But how would you secure it? The jubilee clip would not work.

Edited May 10, 2013 by billS

[bizzard]

But how would you secure it? The jubilee clip would not work.

Gripfill, No more nails, Super glue or drive wedges in around it.with your club hammer.

Forum member General Ally's the expurt on administering Enemas, so she reckons.

Edited May 10, 2013 by bizzard

[Ex- Member]

Then sorry but you will be vilified and despised by the majority of boaters. And rightly so in my opinion. At least have a look at the boaters handbook page 13 http://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/141.pdf

 

I agree with you. Just couldn't type quick enough to say it before you. CaRT say close the gates, that should be it. If anyone disagrees with this rule then they should contact CaRT to complain and not inconvenience others just because they think is a silly rule.

 

To the original post, as many have said, the chap is a very sad man. Try to let it go and be the bigger person by just moving on.

 

To Carl

Terence

 

where exactly does it say that, one hell of a hand book so I've probably missed it.

[carlt]

Forum member General Ally's the expurt on administering Enemas, so she reckons.

Yes that was one banter not to be missed.

[Terence]

I'm not sure the "majority of boaters" really take it seriously enough to "vilify and despise" anyone for such a trivial "transgression", especially when they realise how, not only inconsequential the crime is but also it is the gate closers that are making the work, not the ones who leave the gate open.

 

Like Bizzard I really don't care enough if I have to open a gate, or it has been left open for me, to "vilify and despise" those who insist on closing them

 

It isn't a rule.

 

There is no obligation to even read the Boater's Handbook let alone abide by its contents.

 

.

 

I disagree, I think the majority of boaters do take it seriously.

 

I do understand that the rules are a guide and not harden fast, (maybe they should be then there would be no issue, difficult to police) but they are there to help and in this instance the help is to close the gates whether we like it or not. I must admit I do like to find a lock gate open for me, but if the lock is full I also like to find the far gate shut.

 

On a seperate note, I have your old potting bench (I think it was yours?) salvaged when Lucy was moved.

[Ex- Member]

I'm not sure the "majority of boaters" really take it seriously enough to "vilify and despise" anyone for such a trivial "transgression", especially when they realise how, not only inconsequential the crime is but also it is the gate closers that are making the work, not the ones who leave the gate open.

 

Like Bizzard I really don't care enough if I have to open a gate, or it has been left open for me, to "vilify and despise" those who insist on closing them

 

It isn't a rule.

 

There is no obligation to even read the Boater's Handbook let alone abide by its contents

.

 

Good enough for me

 

Closing gates simply isn't logical, and if it was that important or did waste water as is claimed then I'm sure it would indeed be a rule.

 

Another point on the alleged wasted water. Surely a stretch of canal with an amount of how ever many locks will surely only leak at maximum what exits through the last or bottom lock. Until then it's still in the system held in locks & ponds ponds.