Ideas on allocating moorings

[14skipper]

Off topic? Is it? CRT protests it's not a housing authority but behaves in such a way as to become exactly that.

Tongue in cheek Chris

[Paul C]

Only because they misunderstand what that phrase means.

 

Taken as an isolated case of "will they lose money on THAT mooring by letting it at that price, the answer is of course "NO".

 

However, looked at in a long term context, the question is "If I let that mooring for half the previous rate, what effect will that have on other renewals?"

 

Clearly, it will depress the price, and as such it is NOT economic.

 

If I have 100 identical moorings, that I charge £2,000 each for, and ten are vacant;

 

Somebody offers me £1,800 for a mooring. On the face of it, I an £1,800 better off, and I might even let all ten at that price, and have £18,000 in my pocket.

 

As the other moorings come up to renew, people will give up their £2,000 moorings and bid for them at £1,800

 

At the end of the exercise, I now have 100 moorings in use and my income is the same as it was when I had 90 moorings in use. I have gained the additional admin cost of those moorings, and lost the opportunity to remove the maintenance cost (by closing them).

 

It isn't in my economic interest to allow an oversupply that depresses the price.

 

No, but the overall income is:

 

number of moorings x average price

 

I'd suggest even a basic economist could understand the way the market operates and see its relatively inelastic anyway.

 

Basically, if you're going to commit to an auction based system, then they need to fully commit with no reserve prices (ie an eBay analogy might be 1p or 99p start price). Notice how these auctions always tend to attract many bidders?

 

Even if the overall income drops, so be it, thats market forces for you - the fact remains there's an increasing number of boaters on the system (long term), and that even with the proportionally larger number of CCers the demand for moorings is going up, not down. Yes, they should maximise income but they don't seem to understand the

[madcat]

If the waiting lists are public,maybe available on line then they cannot be abused. Also consider that a smaller mooring may become available before a larger one. I waited longer than my friend for a mooring at Hawne basin because I had a full length boat and he only a medium sized boat. I was perfectly satisfied that this was fair. Spaces for the larger boat are in much more limited,if I'm not in the naughty corner or borrowing an online mooring Iam very much in the way.

I'm sure CaRt can operate a waiting list fairly and without abuse.

[alan_fincher]

Only because they misunderstand what that phrase means.

 

Taken as an isolated case of "will they lose money on THAT mooring by letting it at that price, the answer is of course "NO".

 

However, looked at in a long term context, the question is "If I let that mooring for half the previous rate, what effect will that have on other renewals?"

 

Clearly, it will depress the price, and as such it is NOT economic.

 

If I have 100 identical moorings, that I charge £2,000 each for, and ten are vacant;

 

Somebody offers me £1,800 for a mooring. On the face of it, I an £1,800 better off, and I might even let all ten at that price, and have £18,000 in my pocket.

 

As the other moorings come up to renew, people will give up their £2,000 moorings and bid for them at £1,800

 

At the end of the exercise, I now have 100 moorings in use and my income is the same as it was when I had 90 moorings in use. I have gained the additional admin cost of those moorings, and lost the opportunity to remove the maintenance cost (by closing them).

 

It isn't in my economic interest to allow an oversupply that depresses the price.

 

You are almost certainly right, but it is not the line they actually trot out when challenged on what they mean by "uneconomic".

 

It has always seemed to me you can't have it both ways. The whole justification for the tender, and then auction, system was "to let the market set the rate", and they are very happy for that to happen if a mooring attracts above "guide" price.

 

However the value of a mooring that consistently fails to attract any bids, even at reserve, (wherever that is currently set), is clearly less than that reserve, but they seem perfectly happy to leave large numbers of moorings unlet, and to ignore the "let the market set the rate" maxim.

 

 

Except that they don't

 

Although they do have a dominant position which they would be deemed to be abusing if they started undercutting the opposition

 

In reality on most canals, even non CRT operated linear moorings usually result in CRT collecting the "end of garden" rate, usually set at half the price of basic CRT towpath moorings in the area.

 

So CRT have a very vested interested in keeping their own towpath mooring rates at the current high levels. I am not aware of much genuine competition, (certainly not in my area anyway), because CRT is usually a beneficiary of mooring fees, whether they operate the mooring or not.

 

The situation you describe is only sustainable by CRT because people cannot usually find a cheaper mooring independent of them. If that were a possibility, then people would be leaving over-priced CRT moorings in droves and going to a cheaper provider, but in many areas these are less common than rocking horse shit.

[Chris Pink]

So place your analysis into a context that CRT would like everybody to have a mooring and their continual repetition that boats without a mooring are evading something and 2 plus 2 begins to make £4,000

[alan_fincher]

So place your analysis into a context that CRT would like everybody to have a mooring and their continual repetition that boats without a mooring are evading something and 2 plus 2 begins to make £4,000

If it was my analysis you are referring to, I concede that in many areas CRT would like the entry price for a years boating before any further costs to be about £3K, (about £1K licence and £2K moorings).

 

I'm not condoning it, because I think one of the sad things to happen to canal boating in the past 40 years are the ever escalating costs that make it harder and harder for all but the relatively well off to be part of it.

 

However, as I have said before, I don't know what the answer is.

 

Also I remain vehemently opposed to the auction process, which I believe overall has worked to the disadvantage not just of boaters, but also has been a poor business decision by BW, and continues to be so for CRT. However, (as I have also said before!), I judge it to be something that it will take a huge fight to ever get rid of. That's not to say it can never happen though, of course, and it will not be a day to soon if it ever does.

[Tuscan]

I totally agree with you Alan the auction process also works to keep marina prices up. As the marina sector can say that CRT are effectively setting the benchmark of the basic mooring. To boat legitimately these days is becoming a rich mans sport compared with say 15 or 20 years ago yet to be fair it's more popular now.

[matty40s]

To boat legitimately these days is becoming a rich mans sport compared with say 15 or 20 years ago yet to be fair it's more popular now.

I am truly honoured to be a CC-ing rich man, however, my riches are not in a monetary sense (quite the opposite), but in the richness of my tapestry of life now, the constant changes of scenery and nature, the wonderful mix of people,and the glorious engineering works of our iillustrious canal engineers who made all this possible.

I may have little money, but I am truly rich.

[Paul C]

I am truly honoured to be a CC-ing rich man, however, my riches are not in a monetary sense (quite the opposite), but in the richness of my tapestry of life now, the constant changes of scenery and nature, the wonderful mix of people,and the glorious engineering works of our iillustrious canal engineers who made all this possible.

I may have little money, but I am truly rich.

 

You should feel honoured. There are many who would love to have that type of lifestyle, but are obliged to work full time, and are unable to reconcile CC boating with the other aspects of their life such as regularly getting to-from work, needing to run a car (for many reasons, which possibly go further than shopping etc and which can't be taken care of by hiring a car when needed, canalside services/trades or public transport), family commitments, etc etc. Thus they are somewhat obliged to have a home mooring.

[matty40s]

You should feel honoured. There are many who would love to have that type of lifestyle, but are obliged to work full time, and are unable to reconcile CC boating with the other aspects of their life such as regularly getting to-from work, needing to run a car (for many reasons, which possibly go further than shopping etc and which can't be taken care of by hiring a car when needed, canalside services/trades or public transport), family commitments, etc etc. Thus they are somewhat obliged to have a home mooring.

strange, I work, I run a car, I have many family commitments, I do have to shop as well.

I still CC and have done for 4 years now, and yes, I do feel honoured ,and rich, to enjoy the canal life as I do.

[Starcoaster]

Plenty of people are obliged to work full time and yet still manage to liveaboard and/or CC.

One should not assume that just because it is not within the realms of what oneself is capable of to both work and CC/ liveaboard, that everyone else is similarly afflicted, nor that anyone who CC's does not work.

~If you don't like your life, you can change it.

[Paul C]

matty40s and Starcoaster - do you work at a fixed place of work, or is your work more flexible?

[Starcoaster]

I freelance and locum, in order to make my lifestyle work.

Six months prior to moving aboard, I was tied to set workplaces and localities; it didn't just happen on its own by some happy coincidence that I am now able to work from anywhere or locum as and when it suits. I got my duck is a row and made the moves and changes I needed to make, including gaining some new skills and punting into a new field, in order to make this happen.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Starcoaster

[Paul C]

Then I admire your boldness to change your lifestyle in such a significant way to take up boating CCing and still work full time!

[Grace and Favour]

You should feel honoured. There are many who would love to have that type of lifestyle, but are obliged to work full time, and are unable to reconcile CC boating with the other aspects of their life such as regularly getting to-from work, needing to run a car (for many reasons, which possibly go further than shopping etc and which can't be taken care of by hiring a car when needed, canalside services/trades or public transport), family commitments, etc etc. Thus they are somewhat obliged to have a home mooring.

There are a number of folks whom want the lifestyle you describe (above) - and manage to achieve it.

There may be many more whom want it, and who may never achieve it, sometimes because of their own commitments, or those of their nearest and dearest, or of their localised situation (etc)

 

That is true of any given aspiration you care to describe, (that's life I'm afraid!)

 

However, just because 'one wants' - should not be good reason why 'one should get'

 

And my aspirations to be a gigolo on some Bahamian beach (Not fussy about which beach BTW) will remain thwarted.

 

Which is why I've been forced, by circumstance, failure to create opportunity, and sheer bad luck - to compromise my existence .

[sueb]

Interesting replies but very few ideas on alternative methods of allocation. It seems unlikely there will be any change in the near future.

[cotswoldsman]

Interesting replies but very few ideas on alternative methods of allocation. It seems unlikely there will be any change in the near future.

Sue I notice you have not put forward to many ideas? Do you have something in mind?

[carlt]

matty40s and Starcoaster - do you work at a fixed place of work, or is your work more flexible?

I cced to BW's satisfaction and had a fixed place of work.

 

I was willing to commute up to an hour which gave me hundreds of miles of canal to cruise.

 

I only gave up ccing and got a mooring when my eldest son started school and it became to awkward for us to commute to 3 different locations.

[Trix]

Why can't people just apply for an online mooring in the spot they want . If you find a spot that's quiet away from popular spots , locks etc I think you should be able to apply to Crt to stay there , they charge a bit extra on the licence for the privilege of not moving , there is a lot of empty canal where I would be happy to moor full time it would make my life easier and Crt would benefit as I would be paying them more , at the moment I stick to the rules of moving every 14 days and enjoy it but sometimes it would be nice not to have to move .

[carlt]

I think the fairest way to allocate moorings, and provide a spectacle for gongoozlers, is to adopt this system...

 

 

(Where has the "Insert Media" button gone?)

Edited April 16, 2013 by carlt

[furnessvale]

Why can't people just apply for an online mooring in the spot they want . If you find a spot that's quiet away from popular spots , locks etc I think you should be able to apply to Crt to stay there , they charge a bit extra on the licence for the privilege of not moving , there is a lot of empty canal where I would be happy to moor full time it would make my life easier and Crt would benefit as I would be paying them more , at the moment I stick to the rules of moving every 14 days and enjoy it but sometimes it would be nice not to have to move .

Nice idea, but isn't the "bit" extra something like 200%?

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Trix]

Nice idea, but isn't the "bit" extra something like 200%?

 

George ex nb Alton retired

The price could be set by Crt I then can choose whether I think it is viable or not , when I started I was spending £350 on fuel a month to get to work and it took 2 hours, currently I can cycle , that will increase as I have to continue moving going up to a long commute and then decreasing again once I have travelled far enough to turn . If I could pay a but more it might be better for me and Crt and to me it seems a simple solution.

[alan_fincher]

Interesting replies but very few ideas on alternative methods of allocation. It seems unlikely there will be any change in the near future.

 

Sue,

 

It might be helpful if you explained the background to asking the question.

 

Are you part of any initiative, (either on your own orbacked by an assosciation),that is actually in discussions with CRT about alternatives, or was it just an open question, but with nobody actively working the topic.

 

I have sensed in discussions with CRT that the auctions is an idea they are very unwilling to let go of - and that extends beyond those who may be defending their involvement in the original scheme. John Dodwell, for example, who is pretty open minded on many things has defened them a couple of times in my hearing, so unless you can get strong acceptance by someone involved in the CRT hierarchy that there needs to be change, I'm not at all sure how there is ever likely to be any.

 

I would have thought some kind of return to a waiting list was not impossible, but to be fair, it would somehow have to be open to scrutiny to see that underhand tactics were not allowing people to queue jump - something there seems to be little doubt happened in the past. I'm guessing having the names of "waiters" visible in the public domain would be judged to be breaching data privacy issues, though.

 

Of course another issue is how many lists someone would be allowed to have their name on. I might wish to be on a waiting list for a very popular site, but equally being realistic, might know I had very little chance of ever getting a place there. So I might wish to place my name on await list for several sites that I would accept, but it would clearly make a mockery of the system if I could apply for dozens of sites.

 

None of this is insurmountable, I think, but it would require some intelligent thought by some sensible people - something that sems not to have happened in coming up with what we have currently, IMO.

 

But I still think the biggest problem is to find a champion anywhere in CRT prepard to accept they got it wrong.

 

The price could be set by Crt I then can choose whether I think it is viable or not , when I started I was spending £350 on fuel a month to get to work and it took 2 hours, currently I can cycle , that will increase as I have to continue moving going up to a long commute and then decreasing again once I have travelled far enough to turn . If I could pay a but more it might be better for me and Crt and to me it seems a simple solution.

By implication it sounds like what you are after is the ability to create fully residential moorings at places where there currently are none. As has been discussed many times,this then goes beyond being a CRT issue, as local authorities and planning regulations potentially start to enter the equation.

 

Tonque in cheek, maybe, but if you arereally talking about £350 a month infuel to get to work, (so £4,200 a year), even a commercial marina berth migh in many areas be a cheaper option?

[furnessvale]

The price could be set by Crt I then can choose whether I think it is viable or not , when I started I was spending £350 on fuel a month to get to work and it took 2 hours, currently I can cycle , that will increase as I have to continue moving going up to a long commute and then decreasing again once I have travelled far enough to turn . If I could pay a but more it might be better for me and Crt and to me it seems a simple solution.

I am not exactly disagreeing with you but I recall a recent post from Mayalid which pointed out the perils of offering a cut price mooring. I would imagine that, at renewal time, every boat using CART online towpath moorings will decant to a spot more amenable to themselves at a fraction of the cost.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[carlt]

Tonque in cheek, maybe, but if you arereally talking about £350 a month infuel to get to work, (so £4,200 a year), even a commercial marina berth migh in many areas be a cheaper option?

Not necessarily tongue-in-cheek though.

 

Once you have the mooring (and it doesn't need to be residential) you no longer have to adhere to the ccing requirements in the BWA 1995 so you can reduce your cruising distance as long as you stick to the mooring restrictions wherever you stop.